End of the Week with Produktion Malphunktion- Spring cleaning edition

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

So the rumors are true then MaL. You are "the guy" in that ivory tower, looking down on his minions. (and probably the guy responsible for all the Bruin's confetti dropping from the sky)

We all have our skills. I've been a designer in the past, and I did not enjoy it. It's just not how my brain works. I like the big picture, and making sure all the little threads of the web come together.

And Bruins--yeah baby! How was that comeback...or was it a choke?

[Ivan_Milic]

Has to be xp or items take your pick

Covs/xp/min.

[Madja]

You are missing the key point as well. By the time you do 1x EE, you can do 3x EN quests for far more XP. So nop, EE does not offer more XP.

This was not part of the conversation at all. I'm very well aware that you don't get more XP/min from doing EE. You will see me mentionining that in a previous reply to this thread.
The conversation was simply about the minor difference in base XP between EE and EH. I merely tried to explain that the mentioned 3k difference in base XP is actually a 8k difference in the final XP when you measure in the bonuses.

So you are telling me that you'd rather do a quest 8 times on EE, waiting for some kind of group, with a chance to wipe and use resources for a total of 30-40min * 8 = 240-320 minutes = 4-6 hours, rather then soloing or duoing it in 30-40 minutes tops? Oh and I'm talking about just the main quest here . You wanna factor in the optionals? Good luck doing Miior on EE with a group of pugs or any toon not prepared for the fight. Let's not forget about the Dragon, with tons of HP and yadda yadda. The time goes up by a lot then. Your point doesn't stand.

I feel this entirely misses his point.

Let's say an item has a 5% droprate on normal and a 10% droprate on elite.
Once you've hit chest ransack there chances of getting it on normal is only around 34% while the chances of getting it on EE is around 57%.
Sure it might have taken four times longer on EE, but you'll only be able to do it 8 times a week anyways (unless you eTR in the meantime, which resets chest ransack).

[Qhualor]

I wouldn't be opposed to EE base xp going up - I honestly think it is a better approach than BB. I just don't see EE completion times taking that much more than EH when I am in a good full group. I am just saying XP isn't much more and time spent isn't much more either. On top of that drop rates are much better on EE. I would love for Turbine to share some data on EE drop rates vs. EH and EN.

We just did 3 man EE VON6 tonight - and nobody really needs anything from there. We did it for fun and we could have filled a party but thought it would be fun. We ran 2 man EE Zawabi's Revenge and again we could have filled the party but thought it would be more fun with just 2. I've run many severely short-man FOT for fun. We haven't done the new raids this way but I am sure we will in time.

this isn't normal in game. if you are able to shortman EE raids and able to complete EE quests that isn't that much different than EH, than you don't fall under the category of most other players. information like this is what skews the actual perception portrayed in the game for the devs and than they think this "all is fine".

[Ivan_Milic]

This was not part of the conversation at all. I'm very well aware that you don't get more XP/min from doing EE. You will see me mentionining that in a previous reply to this thread.
The conversation was simply about the minor difference in base XP between EE and EH. I merely tried to explain that the mentioned 3k difference in base XP is actually a 8k difference in the final XP when you measure in the bonuses.





I feel this entirely misses his point.

Let's say an item has a 5% droprate on normal and a 10% droprate on elite.
Once you've hit chest ransack there chances of getting it on normal is only around 34% while the chances of getting it on EE is around 57%.
Sure it might have taken four times longer on EE, but you'll only be able to do it 8 times a week anyways (unless you eTR in the meantime, which resets chest ransack).

No item has that kind of drop rate difference.

[nibel]

For some people:

EH is too easy = Run EE.

No reason to run EE = eventually leave game.

Now the problem isn't as laughable and harmless anymore...

I was laughing at the hypocrisy, not the "harmlessness" of the stuff.

If you run EE for loot, once you get the loot you want, you stop running EE because EE is not efficient in everything else.

If you run EE for the challenge, once you defeat it, you try it again, until it is no longer a challenge. If you really like the quest, you start adding self-imposed limitations to raise the difficulty bar and challenge yourself.

My point is: Running EE for loot is ok. Saying you run EE for the challenge, but stopping running it once it no longer give you better loot is pure hypocrisy.

[Phoenix-daBard]

This problem never existed before motu or when it came.

Bull, it existed about a year before MOTU. It just became more pronounced in U13.

[Wizza]

This was not part of the conversation at all. I'm very well aware that you don't get more XP/min from doing EE. You will see me mentionining that in a previous reply to this thread.
The conversation was simply about the minor difference in base XP between EE and EH. I merely tried to explain that the mentioned 3k difference in base XP is actually a 8k difference in the final XP when you measure in the bonuses.

But is that 8k important when you can do three more quests in that time?

I feel this entirely misses his point.

Let's say an item has a 5% droprate on normal and a 10% droprate on elite.
Once you've hit chest ransack there chances of getting it on normal is only around 34% while the chances of getting it on EE is around 57%.
Sure it might have taken four times longer on EE, but you'll only be able to do it 8 times a week anyways (unless you eTR in the meantime, which resets chest ransack).

Those 34% are done MUCH EASIER than the EE ones. It will be MUCH faster, MUCH easier, no need to group etc etc. So still, no reason to run EE if you can have the same loot on a much easier route, with less time spent farming a quest and more time to do something else.

And you are still talking about only HH. You totally missed my raids issue. There, the issue is even worse with the difficulty going WAYYYY HIGHER and absolute ZERO REASONS to do it with also the time that it takes.

I was laughing at the hypocrisy, not the "harmlessness" of the stuff.

If you run EE for loot, once you get the loot you want, you stop running EE because EE is not efficient in everything else.

If you run EE for the challenge, once you defeat it, you try it again, until it is no longer a challenge. If you really like the quest, you start adding self-imposed limitations to raise the difficulty bar and challenge yourself.

My point is: Running EE for loot is ok. Saying you run EE for the challenge, but stopping running it once it no longer give you better loot is pure hypocrisy.

Simply not true. If I run EE for loot, once I get the loot I want, I try to get more of them. To sell them, to help friends, to try different gear setups. And loot + challenge = fun, rewarding. Challenge itself = fun once, twice. Then no point running it anymore than that other than to help some friends get the favor once.

Self imposed challenges? Cmon, lol. Not going to run EE Deathwyrm naked or duoing because you said so.

[Madja]

No item has that kind of drop rate difference.

That's probably true. I merely used these random numbers to illustrate the point that I believe slarden was making.
Even if the difference in drop chance is 1%, you'll still have a higher chance of getting it before you reach chest ransack. I believe the difference is more than 1%, but if we use that for our calculations you'll still have a 5% higher chance of seeing the wanted item that week.

[Madja]

But is that 8k important when you can do three more quests in that time?

No, it is not. I merely wanted to point out that when talking about base XP you actually get more out of it than one might initially think.
I do think that there's a significant difference between 3k and 8k - one that is important when debating the XP difference.

Those 34% are done MUCH EASIER than the EE ones. It will be MUCH faster, MUCH easier, no need to group etc etc. So still, no reason to run EE if you can have the same loot on a much easier route, with less time spent farming a quest and more time to do something else.

It's true you're spending less time in the quest but you might get the item a week later than you would otherwise. Sure, you can just do other quests while waiting for the ransack timer run out, but there are times when I need a specific item in order to make my gear layout work - those times I'll be ransacking on EE and not on EN.

And you are still talking about only HH. You totally missed my raids issue. There, the issue is even worse with the difficulty going WAYYYY HIGHER and absolute ZERO REASONS to do it with also the time that it takes.

I was speaking about all quests in general.



I completely agree that there should be a more significant difference in the amount of rewards when doing EE, I just think we need to have all the facts in mind first.

[sifubob]

Just wanted to chime in on the double - login thingie. Neither myself, or my two guildies have ever had it. We all live in Australia, none of us run the game from SSD or Flash drive, or use pre-loader. I would suspect that a lot of people who don't have the issue don't go looking for threads on the issue to not complain in, so the perception regarding it's frequency is likely skewed by the fact that only those to whom it matters (as in, those affected) will comment on it, usually

[Oxarhamar]

Has to be xp or items take your pick

I run EE for CoV alone.

[nibel]

Simply not true. If I run EE for loot, once I get the loot I want, I try to get more of them. To sell them, to help friends, to try different gear setups.

So, in this case, you still want more loot, just not for yourself. My point stands. You don't run for the challenge. You run for the loot. And there is nothing wrong with it.

[emtp]

Is there any plans to make iconic better. They are all lacking a littleand could use a little boost

[Andoris]

More XP: lol. By the time I do an EE quest, I can do 2 or even 3x EN quests. So nop, not more XP.
Better drop rates: right. Because a 3% increase is so much more. Not noticeable. And again, by the time I do an EE quest, I can do 3x EN quests so nop, no better drop rates.
More Favor: I can do a quest on Heroic Elite and it gives the same favor as Epic Elite. Unless the quest is only Epic, which there are really a handful of them.
More COVs: again, by the time I finish an EE quest, I can do 3x EN quests so doesn't matter.

I agree with you, except for the last point. The COV rewards on EE are significant. I just finished up an Epic completionist, never waiting on comms.. when I hit 28 I ETR'd and in those 12 lives I only had to purchase 2 epic hearts.

I did some xp farms, but for the most part it was just running the saga's on EE and then running Spies, Von3, Wizking, Mirror, WGU, ID, and RB (sometimes Von5); once a day. If you stick to leveling using EE quests, the xp/min is a bit lower, but you due hit 28 with close to enough CoV to ETR again, and its a lot more fun.

[knightgf]

So Mal, I have a rather interesting question for you:

Have you ever played Super Metroid? Something tells me the game developers could certainly learn a few things from that awesome game and use it's inspiration to make a few things in DDO better.

Also:

Loot. Why we play.

Really? I get that loot matters, but I was under the impression that the reasons why we play are more than just petty loot. Am I mistaken? Is there nothing more to the world of DDO than just loot? If so, it's no wonder why I feel so unsatisfied playing the game.

[Captain_Wizbang]

We all have our skills. I've been a designer in the past, and I did not enjoy it. It's just not how my brain works. I like the big picture, and making sure all the little threads of the web come together.

And Bruins--yeah baby! How was that comeback...or was it a choke?

1) I think I can speak for many here, we are very happy and encouraged by your ascension bro. (very cool stuff) Watched your career at Turbine get to where it is. We thinks it's awesomonious.
2.) You're old school like I am, Hard wired to one side of the brain. After a few sessions w/ you on Mournlands, I found out your D&D lore is first-rate. And THAT can only help you "right the ship". Seriously people, his PnP lore is quite remarkable.
3.) What else can be said about Bruin's Hockey?

[Produktion_Malphunktion]

So Mal, I have a rather interesting question for you:

Have you ever played Super Metroid? Something tells me the game developers could certainly learn a few things from that awesome game and use it's inspiration to make a few things in DDO better.

Also:



Really? I get that loot matters, but I was under the impression that the reasons why we play are more than just petty loot. Am I mistaken? Is there nothing more to the world of DDO than just loot? If so, it's no wonder why I feel so unsatisfied playing the game.

I was just making a generalization of 3 pillars of DDO that need work.

Of course there is. There are many different archetypes of players,the completionist, the explorer,the min/maxer the social butterfly exc, and MMO's attempt to cater to all of them.
I can't tell you what motivates you to play. It's different for all of us.
For example, I'm a social explorer. I pay some attention to my build, but it is not my primary focus. I love games that I can look in all the nooks and crannies, find little things, and preferably do it with a buddy or two. I want to see all the content.I want to make jokes on the way. I take my time, smell the roses, I actually read dialog sometimes.I rarely play for the reward. I play for the play. I also know that my motivations are rare, and not the norm for MMO players.

I'm also at times a completionist...but really depending on the game.
I'm also a PVP guy, but only in shooters, they were my first love.

Pen and Paper lore-yeah...nerd at heart. Very old school. I'm far more likely to go pull on the golden age of Gygax, Ron Moore and such than 3.5 lore. How good was that stuff? It can still be run today...and still be fun. I'm about to run a bunch of noobs on their first adventure into DnD. I'll be using Next, but I'm rebuilding Keep on the Borderlands-really this is the great gateway drug module.It's bad on so many levels, but it is still fun, and like a fun house. Works great for new folks that are not caring about story and stuff yet. If they like it, it will roll into Elemental Evil, something I've read but never run. Although...I did just buy the Dragonlance modules which I've never run either. Kenders...not sure I can run a world with Kenders.

[RedOrm]

Couple of random thoughts while reading up on the thread:

Loading issues: I reported them ages ago (years), and since a fix never happened was under the impression it was still on the to-do list. Why report it again?
In addition to that, the ingame bug reporter has been broken for way too longs now, not only making it harder to report stuff, but also seriously ruining my confidence that Turbine actually cares to bother with these bug reports.

EE loot: I don't like tiered loot, for largely the same reasons I don't like named loot with random properties. I do however have no issues with EE-only loot, provided it's cool but non-essential. Like a DD clicky (please not a pot, that kills my disbelief), a teleport/greater teleport clicky (an Eberron/Realms greater teleport clicky would be awesome as well), and so on. Stuff that's USEFULL, but has no direct bearing on how effective someone is at running quests: no power creep.
A more complex option would be to make them all low ML and unbound so you don't get the problem of EE people saying they got everything they want from a quest: with EE being the sole source of them there will always be a market for them making it always cool to find them.
To retain the bragging value, include a bta EE-only mcguffin (just 1!) that will upgrade (and bind) the base items to a more powerfull version: either a straight upgrade (teleport to mass teleport), or even combining 2 clickies into 1 clicky with both effects (freeing up inventory space): if you can do that several times you could indeed create a "7-part rod of lordly might".
For even more retention value, do both: only upgraded clickies can be combined.

Why I play: I play to have fun, which to me is partly explring and smelling the roses, partly planning my character ahead of time (one of the reasons I like cannith crafting so much, it's a reliable way of getting exactly what I want, unlike, say, farming for that bleeping shard of the ring of spell storing). This also partly explains why I do NOT run quests at-level: there's no TIME for roses if I'm continually fighting for my life (on solo) or running to keep up with the rest (pugging). Another part is simply I detest Wheyloon (both the uglymess and bloated-hp mobs, and the whole notion of the place; if this were pen and paper I'd SO be leading a rebellion) and a fair number of the other top-end quests. U21 may yet change that, but shortly after it came out hubby and me finally got the cov's together for an ETR, so we did that instead.

Crystal Cove: thanks for the info, very much looking forward to next time when the loot is updated, will still enjoy this time as I need a couple more epic spyglasses and so I can stack up on shards for next time. PLEASE make the bottle of rum BTA or at least make it work on party members, I thought it would and made it on my pale master where it is now totally useless.

Communication: first off: THANK you, personally, for responding to this thread over the weekend. That's just awesome. Still hoping there will be more general weekday communication even if only short stuff like Read by a dev (Could we have Liked/Disliked by a dev as well? Just as a personal opinion with no further explanation given, but it would give us a better feel for what might be considdered even if nothing ever comes from it).

E0,02

Greetz,
Red Orm

[Silverleafeon]

I was just making a generalization of 3 pillars of DDO that need work.

Of course there is. There are many different archetypes of players,the completionist, the explorer,the min/maxer the social butterfly exc, and MMO's attempt to cater to all of them.
I can't tell you what motivates you to play. It's different for all of us.
For example, I'm a social explorer. I pay some attention to my build, but it is not my primary focus. I love games that I can look in all the nooks and crannies, find little things, and preferably do it with a buddy or two. I want to see all the content.I want to make jokes on the way. I take my time, smell the roses, I actually read dialog sometimes.I rarely play for the reward. I play for the play. I also know that my motivations are rare, and not the norm for MMO players.

I'm also at times a completionist...but really depending on the game.
I'm also a PVP guy, but only in shooters, they were my first love.

Pen and Paper lore-yeah...nerd at heart. Very old school. I'm far more likely to go pull on the golden age of Gygax, Ron Moore and such than 3.5 lore. How good was that stuff? It can still be run today...and still be fun. I'm about to run a bunch of noobs on their first adventure into DnD. I'll be using Next, but I'm rebuilding Keep on the Borderlands-really this is the great gateway drug module.It's bad on so many levels, but it is still fun, and like a fun house. Works great for new folks that are not caring about story and stuff yet. If they like it, it will roll into Elemental Evil, something I've read but never run. Although...I did just buy the Dragonlance modules which I've never run either. Kenders...not sure I can run a world with Kenders.

Wow, thanks for the many posts!
We players appreciate this.