Epic Destinies

[Phemt81]

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels?

That would be surprisingly good if you ask me.

Why:

This data is considered without low level pack and from hero TR perspective.

Until level 7-8 you just need to run quest one time at elite to level, if you take xp from wilderness too.

When you get to 9 you start needing to run some specific (good xp rewarding only) quest 2 times, 3 for saving some, but still rarely.

At 13 to start to have problems: gotta repeat quests 2 times at least to level, and sometimes you need to struggle in some repetitive slayers run in the wilderness (gianthold).

Currently Phemt is level 17 and i am gaining xp on the crystal cove, so my data is kind of "corrupted" since the event.

If you want to label DDO as "repetitive" let TR xp scaling as it is, if you wanna give your player base a more relaxing experience do the "nerf" to the grind.

Just my honest opinion coming from my real gaming experience here.

Hope it helps.

[Phemt81]

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

maybe it still is a wall of txt, but its sectioned and ordered at least.

Guess what? +1!

Domo arigatoo gozaimasu!!!

[Voldomar]

So set your LFM to only allow characters between appropriate levels, just like you do currently with regular Heroic quests.

I can, but that's not the point. And this shows exactly why xp penalties in epics are going to limit grouping options.
You see how the pug scene is not in good shape atm when it comes to leveling. Epic leveling will inherit the same problems. Now it's all about static groups, bravery bonus and so on... That plus "epic level" selection? Doesn't sound good to me.

[whittey]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

Instead of editing my last post, I'll just add this as a new concern. Every Wizard will now have full UMD with very modest effort. That same wizard will most likely end up with Disable, Unlock and Search as well. A pure 20 Wizard can easily have 11 ranks into UMD and Search. With 20 base + 2 tome + 6 levels = 9 mod = 11 skills per epic level = 55 total ranks. Unlock up to 4, Search to 28 (21 total), UMD to 28 (38 total) and disable to 28 (55 total). You'd probably drop 5 of those Disable's off for Concentration though, so call it 23, which is more than enough considering the huge Int bonus. I think opening up all skills for all classes is very unbalanced.

[Calebro]

I can, but that's not the point.
You see how the pug scene is not in good shape atm when it comes to leveling. Epic leveling will inherit the same problems. Now it's all abuot closed groups, bravery bonus and so on... That plus "epic level" selection? Doesn't sound good to me.

The pug scene has some problems because people are too intent on not ruining a streak.
Streaks will not exist for epics, as they are an "Heroic only" idea (as far as I know). So those concerns are (probably) unfounded. Based on that, one could argue that the pug scene might actually improve for the Epic levels compared to what it is now.

[Khurse]

What about making the completionist feat better? (+3 to all stats or something else) but requiring the regrind to 25?

Or have it that you can keep it if you have it now, but if you TR/LR you lose it,(like the crit rage solution)

[Garix]

Instead of editing my last post, I'll just add this as a new concern. Every Wizard will now have full UMD with very modest effort. That same wizard will most likely end up with Disable, Unlock and Search as well. A pure 20 Wizard can easily have 11 ranks into UMD and Search. With 20 base + 2 tome + 6 levels = 9 mod = 11 skills per epic level = 55 total ranks. Unlock up to 4, Search to 28 (21 total), UMD to 28 (38 total) and disable to 28 (55 total). You'd probably drop 5 of those Disable's off for Concentration though, so call it 23, which is more than enough considering the huge Int bonus. I think opening up all skills for all classes is very unbalanced.

Not sure I'd be too concerned with the example you've given. IIRC you need the trap finding feat to even have a chance at finding traps over a certain DC.

Now I don't know if that's exactly how DDO has implemented it but I seem to recall my Ranger no longer warning me about traps after a certain level, even though his spot would of been high enough.

I do share the concern over UMD though

[Phemt81]

Probably just me, but I'm not understanding your reasoning. If you hit level 25 now and we release the new enhancements later, why does that require you to TR again? I could understand if you said LR, but TR I don't get.

Maybe cause he would prefer to experience the new enhancements system with a fresh perspective, AP wise.

Instead when you just reset AP of a capped toon, you are somewhat "spoiled" on how it work, i guess.

Don't know if i explained correctly enough.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

W

Each time you hit 25, you can a permanent passive feat that adds +5% to epic xp gains.
Thus, each time you TR, if you decide to run to 25 before TRing again, it'll come faster, and faster, and faster.

It's definitive reward and reason to cap even on TRs, encourages TRing, it minimizes the flaws with the epic levels, and it doesn't unbalance anything.

Edit: Clarification: Xp increases as I detailed only affect leveling, not Destinies;
While including them, or a smaller bonus for them, would certainly reward TRs- it would also encourage delays on earning Destinies, which is counter-intuitive to the design. Regardless of benefits, my design thus far only relates to basic leveling.

I was actually suggesting that the passive feat bonus would be for heroic XP. Going deeper into the Epic levels would increase the bonus % the passive feat would apply to your next life of levelling from 1 to 20.

Or if it is technically possible, instead of granting another bonus % to XP, have the new passive feat decrease the overall XP required to level from 1 to 20 for TR's by a certain %. (Or is this the same math just done two different ways? )

I think it should be an incremental bonus either way.

Example: Player attains level 21 and receives the passive feat Epic Vitality granting an 1% bonus to all heroic XP. That bonus would increase by 2% if she levels to 22. If instead, she TR's then the 1% bonus applies to the heroic levelling up.

If instead she levels to 25, then a 5% bonus would be applied to levelling up after TR only to 20. Maybe somehow this stacks like past life feats. Maybe it stacks 3 times at an increase of 1.5x the bonus so as not to become over powered.

On top of that, this passive feat should somehow lessen the xp penalty or remove that penalty for epic characters to group with each other so that a 21 could group with a 25 without any penalties.

Either way, I think this is a good idea that should be seriously considered.

[Scraap]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

Just for clarity, would that include unlocking them in the first place, for things like disable and perform, or is that simply reference to no x2 cost hit?

[bbqzor]

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

And it is. No one (that I saw anyhow) is dissatisfied with the ability to continue to TR at 20. That part of the setup is fine as it is, since it exactly parallels the current situation.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

Again I am a bit scared, I am not sure what made it sound like this was what anyone had requested or suggested. No one wants to do 21-25 more times, that is rather the crux of the problem with it as described currently. Instead requiring even more sets of 21-25 exaggerates grind across the board.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

No thank you. You are shifting XP we get a bonus up (heroic) to XP we don't get a bonus on (epic), and forcing TR characters to build with a new set of restrictions (Instead of using a build which can run 1-20 readily, you now need to be able to function in epic to finish your TR. This makes building much harder, and requires more gear, its just a roadblock. Not every caster TR can get 42+ spell DCs for one life, as one example, don't make groups suffer through 5 levels with characters unable to contribute).

In short, it seems as if people are asking or suggesting ways to alleviate needing to redo 21-25 as much (or ideally at all, but that doesn't seem to be on the table). These suggestions seem to be increasing the amount of 21-25. Thats moving the wrong direction.

We appreciate the thought given to TRs, as it is a huge part of our game, and likely your business model. But "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings a bell here. Leaving it untouched is the best idea, and if a solution can be found which also avoids seeming like punitive re-grinding for doing things in different orders, that would be even better. Note the focus is on "forced" ordering of things here, ie being "forced" to do all your TRs before all your Epics, or being "forced" to TR for completionist and having to redo something additional that wouldn't have existed before.

Obviously we could choose not to, but in doing so are choosing to either be less efficient, or less effective. There shouldn't be mechanical encouragement in the system to push people towards and/or away from new (21-25) epic content. And the current situation does that. The suggestions quoted in this post do that even worse by taking away anyones choice and making people do both. Frankly, I think such a situation would essentially kill the game, but thats just my opinion.

I hope another solution can be found, or that some focus can be given to make redoing 21-25 less of a burden the second (or more) times through. Perhaps like a reverse TR, where 21-25 goes down cumulative 5% each time (up to twice), so people TR'ing right at 20 gain no benefit in epics, but anyone who has done the epic levels can at least get back to 25 to use them a little easier. This mimics something already in place (albeit in reverse) and so is familiar to everyone involved, and likely relatively balanced. Its also the sort of bone thrown to repeat 21-25ers that they might be looking for to lower grind. It also speeds the reacquisition of previously unlocked Destinies for folks like myself who realize that practical time limitations may push them to use a smaller set with nothing gained for "extra credit" leveling, without needing to devise special conditional-requirement code.

Just some more thoughts, again thanks for taking the time. Cheers.

[Roland_D'Arabel]

Think of it this way:

Yes you lost any advancement in Epic XP by TR'ing, but you did earn a bit of a reward (in the bonus to re-levelling) by attaining some or all the Epic levels before you TR'd.

[LeLoric]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

This is really harsh for rogues who get 6 less skill points per level and arguably have more skills to keep up than any other class. They also have hardly any non class skills and don't benefit at all from that.

Even with 12 starting int and a +4 tome we are talking 5 per level.

That keeps up umd, search, disable, open locks and one other.

Others that rogues like bluff, diplo, hide, move silently, balance, haggle.

I could see bards taking it pretty bad here too as they have little to no reason to invest in int but have some pretty important skill points they need to invest in.

[LeLoric]

And it is. No one (that I saw anyhow) is dissatisfied with the ability to continue to TR at 20. That part of the setup is fine as it is, since it exactly parallels the current situation.


Again I am a bit scared, I am not sure what made it sound like this was what anyone had requested or suggested. No one wants to do 21-25 more times, that is rather the crux of the problem with it as described currently. Instead requiring even more sets of 21-25 exaggerates grind across the board.


No thank you. You are shifting XP we get a bonus up (heroic) to XP we don't get a bonus on (epic), and forcing TR characters to build with a new set of restrictions (Instead of using a build which can run 1-20 readily, you now need to be able to function in epic to finish your TR. This makes building much harder, and requires more gear, its just a roadblock. Not every caster TR can get 42+ spell DCs for one life, as one example, don't make groups suffer through 5 levels with characters unable to contribute).

In short, it seems as if people are asking or suggesting ways to alleviate needing to redo 21-25 as much (or ideally at all, but that doesn't seem to be on the table). These suggestions seem to be increasing the amount of 21-25. Thats moving the wrong direction.

We appreciate the thought given to TRs, as it is a huge part of our game, and likely your business model. But "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" rings a bell here. Leaving it untouched is the best idea, and if a solution can be found which also avoids seeming like punitive re-grinding for doing things in different orders, that would be even better. Note the focus is on "forced" ordering of things here, ie being "forced" to do all your TRs before all your Epics, or being "forced" to TR for completionist and having to redo something additional that wouldn't have existed before.

Obviously we could choose not to, but in doing so are choosing to either be less efficient, or less effective. There shouldn't be mechanical encouragement in the system to push people towards and/or away from new (21-25) epic content. And the current situation does that. The suggestions quoted in this post do that even worse by taking away anyones choice and making people do both. Frankly, I think such a situation would essentially kill the game, but thats just my opinion.

I hope another solution can be found, or that some focus can be given to make redoing 21-25 less of a burden the second (or more) times through. Perhaps like a reverse TR, where 21-25 goes down cumulative 5% each time (up to twice), so people TR'ing right at 20 gain no benefit in epics, but anyone who has done the epic levels can at least get back to 25 to use them a little easier. This mimics something already in place (albeit in reverse) and so is familiar to everyone involved, and likely relatively balanced. Its also the sort of bone thrown to repeat 21-25ers that they might be looking for to lower grind. It also speeds the reacquisition of previously unlocked Destinies for folks like myself who realize that practical time limitations may push them to use a smaller set with nothing gained for "extra credit" leveling, without needing to devise special conditional-requirement code.

Just some more thoughts, again thanks for taking the time. Cheers.

I was going to respond to this new proposal but you pretty much just summed up my thoughts exactly.

[Chai]

You had me until here.
New "superior race", new cost.

Probably wont be a new superior race. Will be more like an old race getting new life breathed into it again due to the changes being made, the min maxers figuring out what the best class / race combos are in accordance with the new changes, and then TRing to that after finishing off a druid life.

Other than that, what he is basically saying is that If I cap a TR, my only option if I dont want to throw Xp away is to TR right at 20. If I cap a TR and want to use that toon to raid for a few weeks than TR it again, any XP I have gained above 20 is a waste. I personally dont mind it because we dont even have the option to gain XP above 20 right now. If I raid for 2 weeks after TRing and then TR again, timewise I still used those 2 weeks to raid where i could have used them to TR, regardless if I gained XP or not during that time.

[MadFloyd]

That would be surprisingly good if you ask me.

Why:

This data is considered without low level pack and from hero TR perspective.

Until level 7-8 you just need to run quest one time at elite to level, if you take xp from wilderness too.

When you get to 9 you start needing to run some specific (good xp rewarding only) quest 2 times, 3 for saving some, but still rarely.

At 13 to start to have problems: gotta repeat quests 2 times at least to level, and sometimes you need to struggle in some repetitive slayers run in the wilderness (gianthold).

Currently Phemt is level 17 and i am gaining xp on the crystal cove, so my data is kind of "corrupted" since the event.

If you want to label DDO as "repetitive" let TR xp scaling as it is, if you wanna give your player base a more relaxing experience do the "nerf" to the grind.

Just my honest opinion coming from my real gaming experience here.

Hope it helps.

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

[Lifespawn]

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

it's a choice to tr if the re grind is too much to handle then don't tr

[Phemt81]

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

Uh? I wasn't questioning the level requirement for True Resurrecting. That is fine.

I was submitting feedback about the idea you threw about reducing 15-20 lvls xp requirement to level a TR toon.

Sorry if i did not explain properly my point of view.

[LeLoric]

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

I am going to throw my earlier proposal out there in case you missed it.

Give someone who tr's at a level 21 or higher a token for an xp boost on their next life.

For example

lev 21= 5% token
Lev 22= 10%
Lev 23=15%
lev 24=20%
Lev 25=25%

Numbers of course can vary for balancing purposes.

This makes it so that once someone has leveled a character to 25 they may still consider tr'ing them.

The current system as proposed doesnt do that and instead encourages someone to do all their tr'ing first before doing any epic content meaning those in a completionist grind or just wanting to get a character a few lifes dont get to experience the new content on that character which is often their favorite to play.

[Phemt81]

it's a choice to tr if the re grind is too much to handle then don't tr

No one can say the opposite!