Epic Destinies

[Dagolar]

Ah, a challenge! >:-)
I think a couple suggestions already made would go a long way:

1) Permit immediate unlock of existing EDs by removing the hard level requirement. Leave the "soft" requirements of EDAP (you *do* need to get the EDAP in the first place) the first time through; yes, later runs through the same content will be easier, but they're going to be easier anyway on a TR...and they're going to be easier for someone who stayed at 25 and ground EDs as well.

This'd only FURTHER devalue the meaningfulness of epic levels, which was, if nothing else, one of the more vocal points made.
It entirely avoids any of the concerns I've been taking part in discussing, so I'm assuming you're approaching another concern altogether.
However, even removing those concerns in question from the equation, I'm afraid I'm not seeing the merits of this suggestion- and dramatically so with the concerns included.

2) Remove any level deltas ... basically, let 20s run with 25s without penalty. I realize this may mess with the "epic n/h/e" mechanics.

Now you have a system in which folks have to regrind the levels, and they're down a little from folks who stayed at the 25 cap, but they can group effectively. The delta between a 25 who stayed at cap and a 20 who didn't becomes +3 BAB/+2 Saves/2 Feats/1 Stat up ... and the 20 doesn't feel like they have to play the narrow level range/quest game on the way up.

The points made in opposition to this (including xp farming concerns, the possible lack of desire to even run with toons 5 levels lower at 25, and how it'd break further epic level xp elements if the last 5 levels were ever added) are perhaps more potent than the ones in favor for it.

Still, your latter points have merit: Epic levels ARE supposed to be about broad horizons and feeling powerful. So being confined to narrower questing does seem more troublesome.

He said a slight reduction of total XP from 15+ if they had to go to level 25. speculation puts 21-25 at 2 mil XP (or up to 5 mil xp if you listen to some people) so lets say he reduces heroic level xp by... 10% then add the 2-5 mil xp for level 21+ that's an insane amount of XP per TR life. I'm on life 7 on my main, and there would be no way I would want to get 6 mil XP per TR life. 4.3 is already more than enough to get me burnt out on TRing after 2-3 lives in a row.

While your numbers may perhaps (hopefully?) be a bit inflated in favor of your point, you have a very solid argument.
Unfortunately, that's not a matter I have any recommendations for.

This would really only be a feasible change if the Bravery Bonus was done away with. As it is now with all the XP bonuses available, my third+ life toons feel like first-lifers, and I'm having a hard time getting all of the favor that I want while I'm actually at level. Variable first time difficulty bonus, Bravery, XP tome, XP potion, VotM, bonus XP weeks/weekend, etc etc etc. If those toons were actually following a first life XP scale, there's absolutely no way that they'd be able to run things at level.
Not to mention the cries of outrage that would accompany the removal of BB. But removing it would be the only thing to do if everyone was on a first life scale.

Yes. Bonuses and Tomes included, my TRs are leveling faster than my first lifers used to, back when.

Lets assume a minimum 30% decrease in xp due to these bonuses, as well as Floyd's decrease (and Ninety's projection of 10%, and a favorable average of his epic level xp range projections at 3mil):

Original 3rd life xp reqs: 4.378 mil.*
Current xp equivalent: Aprox. 2.626 mil.*
-10%: 2.363
Proposition's somewhat favorable projection: 5.363 mil.*

While Ninety's point is reinforced, the actual increase is 'only' 25%.
..then again, considering how long a third life used to take, that's a hefty increase.
Someone using all of bravery and tomes and ship buffs and votm would likely be able to narrow that further- but given their exclusion from epic xp, not by very much.

Given comparison to current xp requirements, it's near exactly double the expense.

So for now, the proposal doesn't seem to work very well.


*About the numbers: I assumed a 40% decrease in xp requirements. Considering an average of about +40% bravery and just +20% tome, we're left with 59% base xp. Rounding against my argument brings it to 60%.
Constant use of elite bravery and greater tome will notably lower that even further.

Edit: Forgot to add in the 10% projected decrease, fixed.

[Raiderone]

What I would like to see is all TR's using the same XP system (1st TR). No increase in XP needed based on amount TR's.

[ComicRelief]

...If there were over 40 trillion-billion build combinations for a character before, with the Expansion that number probably now looks like Pi.

You mean there is only going to be about 3 now?!??

[Jacobius]

First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

Ok lets look at the total number of people posting in the thread compared to how many actually play the game.

So your guys are considering changing something you have worked this long on because 2% of the game population came in here???

Most of your paying customers have better things to do with their lives then sit in here complaining about something.

Your job as devs is to create something that is good for all not just to pander to the few elitists who come in here and complain. But like the say the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

[Xezno]

The main issue for the developers when it comes to epic levels and TR is the fact that there will be an outcry if it suddenly becomes more work to TR after the update. If they introduced the TR mechanic for the first time in this expansion, and you could do it from level 25, this would not be a topic at all.

I would applaude if they somehow could make the 15 - 20 grind on TRs require a lot less xp (currently about half the xp a TR2 + requires) and balance that out with the time it takes to level from 20 to 25. That would in my mind be the ultimate solution. To get this right would be quite hard however.

This would solve a lot of problems:

- Too slow progression at levels 15 - 20 for it to be fun.
- You would actually experience the new content even just doing a past life.
- You would get the opportunity to gain some useful loot every life (i suspect lvl 20 gear will be outdated at cap)
- You would gain epic destinies every life.

What i do suggest is that the level restrictions for groups be lessened at 18+ for TR characters. Maybe even let 18+ TR2 + characters group with others at lvl 25 without xp penalties. They are after all more powerful both in terms of skill and equipment (generally speaking) than normal first lifers.

[tihocan]

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

I think you'd need to let people decide if they want to TR at 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, or 25, and give an XP boost that is higher the higher your level at the time you TR'ed.
Otherwise people who are close to 20 at the time the Xpack is released won't be too happy that they have 5 more levels to grind before the TR they had planned...
So that would be pretty close to my suggestion, except instead of skipping levels you would have them go faster thanks to XP boost.

[MrCow]

It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25).

If the level cap rises again (a possibility that should not be ruled out) then you will find a heavy dose of concern and complaint because you will be stuck between the same problem again:

• Do you increase the True Reincarnation grind by making the new level cap the requirement to True Reincarnate?
• Do you use level 25 as the required level for True Reincarnation?

Thematically, once you hit 20 and obtain Epic status, that is a proper time to be allowed to transcend anew.

Mechanically, if the total EXP requirement increases to True Reincarnate, it will cause annoyance because "it used to be better to do in the past".

Socially, on these forums, there was not much negative stated about the fact that True Reincarnation could occur at level 20, Epic levels would be beyond 20, and Heroic levels would be required after a True Reincarnation to get back to Epic levels. That is knowledge the forum folks has had for a couple months and the lack of an uproar for the initially proposed system may be a metric that should weigh in to this decision.

[jjflanigan]

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

As someone who is only halfway through with a completionist character, this concerns me.

Are you suggesting that you'd adjust the exp required to level 15+ enough that it would take the same amount of exp to get from 1 - 25 as it currently does to get from 1 - 20? If not, then I would be very much opposed to this type of change.

I'd prefer that you not "move the carrot" for what you have to do to TR. I can understand where people are coming from regarding levels 21 - 25 adding more you have to do in order to "cap out" your character when you are ready to site and play at "end game" for a while with your friends. However, if you are just going through past lives to finish a character out then changing the point at which you can TR is not a good thing.

To me, I don't see any issue with having to go back through levels 21-25 to re-unlock the abilities you've earned. It's no different than TR'ing a caster and having to relevel to get your spells or TR'ing any character and having to relevel to use the gear you saved up. I'm just having trouble seeing why it's ok to have to get back to a certain level to use your greensteel or your epic gear, but it's a huge concern to have to do that in order to use your epic destiny paths.

To me, epic levels and epic destinies are something "extra". What if a person doesn't buy the epic destinies, they now have to level 5 extra times (with xp that is harder to acquire) just to be able to TR and they aren't gaining any of the nice "extras" from the destiny paths. I feel that the epic levels and epic destinies should stay completely separate from the heroic game and that TR'ing should be left as a part of the heroic game instead of sliding it into the epic game.

-JJ

[HungarianRhapsody]

You lose time you can spend tackling the new endgame raids. You lose time you can spend playing with build permutations. You lose time grinding out the new awesome weapon. You lose time grinding to level 25 and all the epic destinies on the OTHER characters you have on your account.

Its, as I've said before, a time sink. You gain nothing from it, and just lose time.

It has an enormous opportunity cost now to Tr. theres no way around it with this system.

It takes exactly the same time to grind out the various destines by going from 21 to 25 multiple times as it takes to go from 21 to 25 and then sitting at 25 because you have to get the exact same total XP in either case.

In fact, it's likely that you'll get your epic destinies faster by going from 21 to 25 multiple times because you won't have any XP penalties as you run the "low level" epics.

There is no difference in the amount of time that it will take to TR 5 times and then grind out 5 destinies after you finish your 5 TRs vs. going from 21 to 25 five times.

No difference.

[Calebro]

Thematically, once you hit 20 and obtain Epic status, that is a proper time to be allowed to transcend anew.

I agree completely. Not only that, but I think the proposed system is actually quite good.

Incidentally, I find it quite funny that people are already complaining about "losing" something that they don't even have yet.... nay.... something that doesn't even exist yet.

I'm just having trouble seeing why it's ok to have to get back to a certain level to use your greensteel or your epic gear, but it's a huge concern to have to do that in order to use your epic destiny paths.

Exactly.

[Aelonwy]

I think this misses the root cause, which isn't total xp required, but time to rejoin friends at the cap.

1) Permit immediate unlock of existing EDs by removing the hard level requirement. Leave the "soft" requirements of EDAP (you *do* need to get the EDAP in the first place) the first time through; yes, later runs through the same content will be easier, but they're going to be easier anyway on a TR...and they're going to be easier for someone who stayed at 25 and ground EDs as well.

2) Remove any level deltas ... basically, let 20s run with 25s without penalty. I realize this may mess with the "epic n/h/e" mechanics, depending on how it's done.

Now you have a system in which folks have to regrind the levels, and they're down a little from folks who stayed at the 25 cap, but they can group effectively. The delta between a 25 who stayed at cap and a 20 who didn't becomes +3 BAB/+2 Saves/50 HP/2 Feats/1 Stat up ... and the 20 doesn't feel like they have to play the narrow level range/quest game on the way up.

I really like what was said above but isn't there a way to compromise?

For instance, say you leveled to 25 and had to/wanted to TR, you get to 20 again and your past epic destines are available again but not the special level gated abilities currently... instead of totalling removing those hard level requirements could we not just lower them by 1 for any past lives after reaching level cap 25? But only for those epic destinies from the previous life/lives.

Because the huge power gap between a level 20 character currently and a level 19 does for some ppl create a "only 20's in our group attitude" that may in the future carry over to Epic content such that "only 25's allowed" even if doing a CR21 dungeon. Especially, as the comparison of Epic Destiny abilities to gear seems quite appropriate. Having access to your lvl 25 Epic destiny abilties (and being able to switch to the most useful ones in a given situation) might become if not mandatory to some grouping mechanics at least heavily favored. However, this portion really doesn't bother me either way... I don't group that way. So I really don't mind the original setup for epic destinies.

Its really point number 2 that is the main issue for me. Grouping with higher or lower level people than myself and having xp penalties applied to myself or others out of a very narrow range. And my perception that there simply isn't nor won't be enough epic content (anytime soon) for perpetual regrinding (from a boredom perspective) on TR's in those very narrow level ranges.

Sorry if this made very little sense. I just woke up. Will rejoin conversation later.

[voodoogroves]

As someone firmly in the middle, here's where I'm at and why I'm ok with some sort of carrot.

I have a few multi trs. In my mind, I have one I'm thinking about for completion, but plenty others I would still want maybe there fighter lives.

I'm also one of those power casual players. Plenty play more, my time is limited but I still aim for a few characters to at least be efficiently capable for the time I have to play. I plan and target what I aim to play and achieve, farm out otherwise. I'm in a small guild so I won't be automatically assuming I will have abishai sets and matching tod sets on everyone because I'm not on a mega guild raid train. That's ok, because I can plan, etc.

If I'm tr ing one, I'm playing the other through epics. When I cap the tr, maybe then I un park my rogue a slam her through a few trs. The time she spent at 20 has garnered her some gear and she'll be able to step right in. 20 is a parking lot.


The question is, and this is where we are interpreting the details we can from the info released, will that function the same, figuratively. We know you'll get you're gear and be just a strong as you we're last time at twenty ... But will you be able to effectively group with those at 24 or 25? Will your friends who are at 25 be playing content you really d should be 23 out higher to play? If you pause your tr string at 20 will you be able to group, given the implied additional stratification and segregation?

Raising the tr cap to 25 would really turn off a bunch of folks too ... Get your trs early when they are 4.3 million and before they take 20 million.

I think those are kinda the two problem statements. 20 is a nice common ground ... Can 21-25 remain that way so people can tr? Or will the impact and repeat costs be a real disincentive ... for the super casual, power casual and serious grinders.

[Vazok1]

First of all, I just want to say thanks to Durnak, all other TR'ers, and everyone else for remaining civil and constructive in this thread. It truly is something to see such a rapidly growing thread filled with so much intense passion and debate without anyone resorting to, well, undesirable behaviors. (hopefully I didn't just jinx it).

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

If people want the benefit of levels 21-25 then they should work for them. Admittedly if the exp required to get to 25 is huge then maybe that does need some tweaking, but if the content your introducing gives good exp, good loot and is fun to play I see no reason to make it easier. People can claim that it is just unnecessary grind but it is not, its enlarging the end game content
If you believe that actually playing the game in endgame content that is scalable to your skill level and provides a challenge to all is a waste of time then you are no longer enjoying the game.
Yes it would be awesome to have 50more hp and those extra hit and feats etc without any work but is your character really going to struggle in the endgame content? do you NEED those things to be effective in that content? our characters are so powerful in comparison to the current content that we dont even need these benefits, especially since you will be bale to chose norm/hard/elite depending on what you can handle. I think its amazing that they still allow people to TR again at 20 AND keep their destiny progress without being forced to level to 25 before TR'ing
If you want it, Work for it, Enjoy it and Reap the benefits. Welcome to DDO.

[SableShadow]

Still, your latter points have merit: Epic levels ARE supposed to be about broad horizons and feeling powerful. So being confined to narrower questing does seem more troublesome.

Yah, trying to approach the problem from the opposite angle: "What would it take to get back on the raiding circuit?" rather than attacking the xp amount head on.
I'm personally fine with the leveling process as orignally presented; anyone on the completionist circuit is going to want all the EDs anyway.

[Dagolar]

You mean there is only going to be about 3 now?!??

Your number is closer to truth, with the misphrasing they're using:
They mean to say 'character customization options', rather than a phrase that insinuates full, entirely distinct builds.
And even then, they're not accounting for usefulness of certain options in unison with others, which would notably lower that number.

Even so, I can appreciate their enthusiasm for their system- after all, I share it.

And, hey. It's still far superior in customization complexity to [that competition]- even before the massive increase to it after the changes.

<3

Ok lets look at the total number of people posting in the thread compared to how many actually play the game.

So your guys are considering changing something you have worked this long on because 2% of the game population came in here???

Most of your paying customers have better things to do with their lives then sit in here complaining about something.

Your job as devs is to create something that is good for all not just to pander to the few elitists who come in here and complain. But like the say the squeeky wheel gets the grease.

Your sentiment is solid, but your logic isn't.
The devs are posting here as input, in a beta-play-esque capacity.
Just as in beta, the devs will take feedback to determine overall functionality, balance, and concerns, then evaluate to fit.
What you're asking toward is design that takes no solid feedback whatsover from players, which diminishes overall design resources and threatens potential decrease in customer satisfaction.

Each point here is being argued out, and the devs are using that information to reconsider their own thoughts, and then decide for themselves where to move on from that.

Noone is perfect, and this allows the devs to see potential flaws in their system. It's up to them to decide if those things are flaws or not, much as it's someone's prerogative to not only take something away from a lecture or study group, but to apply those learnings to their own processes.

Also, those people with more things to do with their lives? Rather by nature of that phrase, those are the ones that aren't as obsessive on the game, in general, and thus the ones that are less likely to be troubled by basic design changes.

These are the people here that are most concerned with those changes- in general.

To me, epic levels and epic destinies are something "extra". What if a person doesn't buy the epic destinies, they now have to level 5 extra times (with xp that is harder to acquire) just to be able to TR and they aren't gaining any of the nice "extras" from the destiny paths. I feel that the epic levels and epic destinies should stay completely separate from the heroic game and that TR'ing should be left as a part of the heroic game instead of sliding it into the epic game.

-JJ

Yet another solid point against the proposal.

It takes exactly the same time to grind out the various destines by going from 21 to 25 multiple times as it takes to go from 21 to 25 and then sitting at 25 because you have to get the exact same total XP in either case.

In fact, it's likely that you'll get your epic destinies faster by going from 21 to 25 multiple times because you won't have any XP penalties as you run the "low level" epics.

There is no difference in the amount of time that it will take to TR 5 times and then grind out 5 destinies after you finish your 5 TRs vs. going from 21 to 25 five times.

No difference.

Yeah, I didn't understand that part of the argument, either, as I'd noted earlier.

[luvirini]

On the TRing, required XP and TR at 20 or 25 question.

I think that with all the added high level content+bonuses the old pain of not enough XP at higher levels is mostly gone.

Currently My TR2+ Seem to hit 20 before having done Amrath.

I would rather see that TR continues to be 20 as in the original plan and that the xp for 21-25 is same for all regardless of TR status.

So my vote would be for the original concept.

[Tolastun]

He said a slight reduction of total XP from 15+ if they had to go to level 25. speculation puts 21-25 at 2 mil XP (or up to 5 mil xp if you listen to some people) so lets say he reduces heroic level xp by... 10% then add the 2-5 mil xp for level 21+ that's an insane amount of XP per TR life. I'm on life 7 on my main, and there would be no way I would want to get 6 mil XP per TR life. 4.3 is already more than enough to get me burnt out on TRing after 2-3 lives in a row.

this is the issue i have, i understand completionist requires devotion, but maybe have it changed along these lines (apologies to those who have already earned it if this seems to cheapen it) maybe have each life after the first maybe equal the xp for a second life (for example (at level 20) 1st life rogue 1.9 mill, second life ranger 2.3 mill, third life monk 2.3 mill, etc...) and then if you want to take a second life of a specific class then have a xp jump to like 3 mill for that class, and for a third life of that class go up to 4 mill. this suggestion does reduce the overall xp required for completionists while still allowing people to not get burned out rapidly with what could be a extreme amount of xp required to go from 20 to 25. because if i have to choose between getting 6-9 mill xp per life with the drag that i am seeing at about 14 on a multi life character, i would rather go look for another game (and i am a VIP for those who might say its free to play)

[geoffhanna]

I want to point out that we gave special consideration to TR's in this design. In no way did we want to have anyone feel like they got a bad deal. Allowing players to TR at level 20 when the level cap was increased was supposed to be a good thing (especially considering the recent heroic-only XP boost). We thought we were providing flexibility.

That said, this is a complex issue and we certainly don't have any completionists on the dev team so I'm grateful for all of you sharing your perspective.

So, where does that leave us? It sounds to me like the TR'ing should require players to go through all levels (1-25). That would solve the issues of feeling like 21-25 were unnecessary and there being a level gap between TR's who are 'on break' and fellow capped players.

What if the TR XP curve for heroic levels was adjusted so that less XP was required through levels, say, 15+ to (somewhat) compensate for the epic levels? This would also help the issue that some have complained about - namely not enough content in these levels for TR'ers. One downside is that the recent heroic XP boost would of course be heroic only.

Just throwing this out to see what comes back, I am not promising anything.

Please do not do anything that would require me to earn even more XP during one TR life. I intend to TR the very moment I hit 20 on my completionist, every single time. I won't bother with levels 21-25 until I am complete. And I don't mind re-doing those levels if you introduce another class after I've finished.

I have other capped chars. I occasionally TR them for character-improvement reasons (as opposed to completionism reasons) and for each one of those I will have to decide whether or not to progress through 21-25 and when. And I am totally okay with that.

[Dagolar]

I think it's safe to say that the proposal isn't functional or overly welcomed.

So, that leaves us back at the start- side preferences and concerns aside-

Making epic levels feel inherently useful.

As far as TRs go, the matter is of individual concern, as you lose nothing, only gain from being able to do something as you grind along before your next TR.

A capstone makes leveling at any point useful, and access to epic destinies is always welcome once you're solid in a TR progression, and set on the current build.

So, the last point that remains is:

If you cap all destinies and then TR, how do you make epic levels feel meaningful?


I'm still not keen on the need, myself, given the first point above and the ephemeral nature of TRs past 20, but lets see if we can't come up with some ideas to address that concern for those to whom it does matter.

Thoughts?

[Garix]

Please do not do anything that would require me to earn even more XP during one TR life. I intend to TR the very moment I hit 20 on my completionist, every single time. I won't bother with levels 21-25 until I am complete. And I don't mind re-doing those levels if you introduce another class after I've finished.

I have other capped chars. I occasionally TR them for character-improvement reasons (as opposed to completionism reasons) and for each one of those I will have to decide whether or not to progress through 21-25 and when. And I am totally okay with that.

I had a long post written out. ^^^^THIS^^^^ was better written and shorter