Epic Destinies

[Deamus]

Right, well, we have to keep pressing the point, because it seems the devs don't realize that Epic Destinies unlocking is not enough of an incentive to get TR-oriented players to run to level 25 before they TR. And we NEED these players to at least consider running to 25, with some carrot that gives them a bonus in their next life, in order to make sure we have people running ALL the content.

DDO is a special animal in the MMO world. It's the kind of game that rewards players for having characters at all level groups in order to play with their friends regardless of what levels they are at. Having SOMETHING for hitting level 25 before a TR is very important for cohesion. Plus, it's just FUN that way.

I completely disagree . They got alts to play end game content and apparently they like grinding . I explain through my posts why its a really bad idea to give them another carrot.

Also I see myself the epic destinies as a new way to balance the gap between tr players and epic destinies . If you give them another carot we are worse state we were before . All people will "have" to grind to lvl 25 to get that carrot. Epic destinies give the chance for end gamers like myself who don't like tring to gain more power while playing end game content . It is our choice to tr we know are loses . As it is the system is ok .

PS : On side note , I saw so many posts that tring is not needed . Completely false for Divine and Caster .

[LeLoric]

Yep, but not the end of the world. Levels 1-20 are a lot faster than they used to be... It's probably a net wash in time spent.... And you are STILL going to want to build up your epic destinies...

Every one of you guys who TRs 10+ times are the same people who are going to want to max out every epic destiny. So TRing 1-25 multiple times is not a terrible deal.

I dont tr 10+ times. Most I have on any character is three lives. I also am pretty sure I wont want to max out every epic destiny. I still feel it is a terrible deal.

[Dagolar]

Ok I am going to be a bit long worded here but I want to make my position as clear as possible and be done with it.

Not purposefully trying to spam this, but really, give Roland's and my proposals on taking care of the matter a look.
As has been mentioned, all the rest is subjective, but there is a definitive encouragement for habitual TRers to not run epic levels until they've farmed out TR lives under the current system. Our proposals ought mitigate that- as a third option, the benefits of each proposal could be lessened and combined.

Proposals Here and Here.

Let us know what your thoughts are

[MaximumCharisma]

The people who post here saying that they cap first life toons in a week are NOT the majority. They are the maybe 5% of the population. I play a few alts on Sarlona who only PUG. I have come to meet many new faces and add them to my friends list only to see that they go up in level VERY VERY slowly. As in 1-2 lvls per month. My first toon capped 7 months after I started playing the game. And for new players just getting to 20 has never been harder. I realize that the devs know this and are taking considerations to revise the LFM system.

But the fact remains that the entire expansion to the game is lvl 20+. To me that says that the developers and management at Turbine want new and old players alike to enjoy playing 20+ adventures. And that they are NOT only catering to the top 5% of the population who have and will have all the epic gear and TRs done within a few months of the expansion.

All this hype over exp in the expansion and I feel like we lack the answers to some fundamental questions.

For instance, can anyone point me to the reason that we MUST get to 25 to play end game? From what the devs have said, there will be Epic content available to all chars lvl 20 and up. Am I wrong to infer that a lvl 21 group playing in the new content will have access to the same loot that lvl 25s would? Even if at a lower rate such as elite is now and also challenge ingreds.

Or will it be the case of only on epic 25 will we have a chance for +4 (+5?) tomes or ingreds to make specific items? This similar to the reason people always run Hard/Elite VoD and almost never run Hard/Elite ToD.

If the game gets to the point that end game really is only for lvl 25 players then I think the arguments for changing the current system as it applies to TR (and in general) have validity.

Few people run TR to remain at low lvls forever. The majority of players that I know of do not cycle TR over and over; rather they TR, then play a while or maybe TR a different toon, etc. Doing a TR because you don't want to re-grind the ESOS that took you over 150 vons to complete because you want to totally change your class (ie try thf on a pally vs Barb) should not seem even more daunting than the grind it took to make the items you have acquired.

[Thrudh]

One of my greatest fears with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great then I may be forced to just play 1-3 characters which irks the heck out of me.

I agree with this too... I want to be able to continue playing multiple characters, all of which are "solid" enough to contribute meaningfully... I used to have 7 characters... I dropped that to 5 when I started the epic grind... Please don't make it so I have to concentrate on 1-3 characters.

[Dagolar]

I completely disagree . They got alts to play end game content and apparently they like grinding . I explain through my posts why its a really bad idea to give them another carrot.

Also I see myself the epic destinies as a new way to balance the gap between tr players and epic destinies . If you give them another carot we are worse state we were before . All people will "have" to grind to lvl 25 to get that carrot. Epic destinies give the chance for end gamers like myself who don't like tring to gain more power while playing end game content . It is our choice to tr we know are loses . As it is the system is ok .

PS : On side note , I saw so many posts that tring is not needed . Completely false for Divine and Caster .

Epic Destinies affect similarly and perhaps more potently as Past Lives. A supposition on the matter that supports the view you're trying to oppose is that it'll lessen the value of PLs.

While I didn't see that many posts about TRing not being needed, I'll have to agree with them- in some cases. You're partially correct. For certain builds, TRing is dramatically helpful. For others, say, a healbot or a savant it's typically not an issue at all. In fact, I'd rate non-casters and wizards as the ones that gain the most benefit from TRing, rather than your suggestions of 'Divine and Caster' toons.

[Calebro]

Not purposefully trying to spam this....

Then don't.
We get it. You have proposals. We read them when you posted them. We read the conversation that followed. We saw you link to them multiple times. We get it. If you don't want to spam it, all you have to do is stop linking it.

edit:
OK, perhaps that was a bit harsh. No offense intended. But yes, you were spamming it.

[LeLoric]

Not purposefully trying to spam this, but really, give Roland's and my proposals on taking care of the matter a look.
As has been mentioned, all the rest is subjective, but there is a definitive encouragement for habitual TRers to not run epic levels until they've farmed out TR lives under the current system. Our proposals ought mitigate that- as a third option, the benefits of each proposal could be lessened and combined.

Proposals Here and Here.

Let us know what your thoughts are

Ive read your proposals and they are not very different from my own of getting bonus xp when you tr depending on which level you tr from. While none of the proposals are ideal as they still involve an increased cost.

Yours are more catering to those who want to tr a lot versus say like the new player who levels up his first character. They are not going to stop at 20 and restart it just doesnt work that way. They will hit 25 felel all proud they capped out and then be told they have to redo everything to get their past lifes which many do consider a must just read around on the forums for builds and the likes.

Is a new player going to say oh well I get an extra 5% bonus on my xp so I guess that's ok? Or will they saw screw this diablo III looked fun?

[MadFloyd]

Some pages ago someone asked for the list of Epic Destiny names.

Here they are:

[Thrudh]

Ok I am going to be a bit long worded here but I want to make my position as clear as possible and be done with it.

When you tr there is a cost. That cost is the amount of time and effort it takes to get back to where you are. For a level 20 that cost is ~3.1 mil xp or ~4.3 mil xp.

That time and effort to get to 20 was just recently reduced by a LOT... So even goign all the way to 25 you're probably back to where you were a year ago... And you all were TRing like crazy back then too...

Do a 1-20,1-20,1-25 hang out at 25 for a while, 1-20,1-20,1-25 kind of pattern...

As long as you are still getting epic destinies unlocked, the 21-25 levels won't feel like a total waste.

I don't know how to balance this for the TINY TINY minority of people who go for completionist, but you guys will figure out an optimal path...

For turbine it means less store sales and that means less income which equates to so many other things. It also means people tend to stay at cap longer which means people growing bored of content faster etc and more likely to go check out another game.

For players it means less people in the releveling process. That directly affects those who wish to tr as there choices of people to level with are diminished. It affects newer players who will have less experienced players to get them through to cap which means a lessened amoutn of new people reaching and joining the endgame process to replace those that leave through attrition.

Theres also economic repurcussions like less need for cannith crafted items and the likes for lower levels but thats another subject that gets way too long winded.

So really even if you are okay with the change it doesnt mean that it might not affect you in a negative way.

You are totally reaching here. This only affects the top 0.1% of powergamers. And you guys all solo, duo, run guild-only anyway. You TRing less won't affect me (ha! As long as you can get a +1 somewhere, you'll be TRing anyway)

[Dagolar]

Then don't.
We get it. You have proposals. We read them when you posted them. We read the conversation that followed. We saw you link to them multiple times. We get it. If you don't want to spam it, all you have to do is stop linking it.

There actually wasn't a conversation that followed- in fact, only one person besides me and Roland actually commented on the posts (and that, from the push). And I mentioned early on that I'd keep supporting the proposals until someone addressed them.

My apologies if the push or that last phrasing bothered you- though I'd intended it playfully and self-deprecatingly (and as a indication of finale)- but you can't fault me for saying what I'd do and doing it, and looking for recognition of what I considered to be a valuable element to the conversation.

Ive read your proposals and they are not very different from my own of getting bonus xp when you tr depending on which level you tr from. While none of the proposals are ideal as they still involve an increased cost.

Yours are more catering to those who want to tr a lot versus say like the new player who levels up his first character. They are not going to stop at 20 and restart it just doesnt work that way. They will hit 25 felel all proud they capped out and then be told they have to redo everything to get their past lifes which many do consider a must just read around on the forums for builds and the likes.

Is a new player going to say oh well I get an extra 5% bonus on my xp so I guess that's ok? Or will they saw screw this diablo III looked fun?

I'm not actually sure what you're trying to say, and how you're relating an alternative that'd encourage new players to remain in-game in the scenario you described. Or are you bringing up a new point, in which you believe the new system doesn't work well with TRing?

[Thrudh]

I dont tr 10+ times. Most I have on any character is three lives. I also am pretty sure I wont want to max out every epic destiny. I still feel it is a terrible deal.

Then this won't affect you. Really.

You sound like me... Multiple characters, some at cap, some TRing... I'll get a guy to 25, picking up some destiny xp along the way... hang out there enjoying end-game while I TR another guy... When HE gets to 25, I might TR the original guy.

Basically I WILL be TRing 1-25, not 1-20... And that's no big deal.

How is your experience different from mine? This only affects people who hit 20, maybe do a few epics with guildies for a week, and then immediately TR again. Those people will miss out on the week of doing epics with guildies... I'm sure they have other characters at cap though.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

You TRing less won't affect me (ha! As long as you can get a +1 somewhere, you'll be TRing anyway)

The accuracy of your statement pains me.

But ya. I'm gonna be on that hamster wheel for a lot of years.

[Cetus]

Ok I am going to be a bit long worded here but I want to make my position as clear as possible and be done with it.

When you tr there is a cost. That cost is the amount of time and effort it takes to get back to where you are. For a level 20 that cost is ~3.1 mil xp or ~4.3 mil xp.

Now for anyone who has advanced past level 20 that cost will be increased by an value x which is the amount that they had earned.

That additional x cost comes with no additional benefit. For anyone who says you can advance a destiny that is irrelevant as you can advance a destiny just the same if you didnt tr and stayed at your current level. The only way this would be a variable in our cost is if the only way to get the extra destinies is by repeating the 21-25 process which is not the case.

Now when costs increase invariably demand falls. Sure some will still do it and those are the ones who say that they are ok with it. However there are those who think that the cost no longer equal the benefits and therefore will no choose to absorb those costs. The fact that there are quite a few posters even here in disagreement with the sytem reflects that.

This effects everyone.

For turbine it means less store sales and that means less income which equates to so many other things. It also means people tend to stay at cap longer which means people growing bored of content faster etc and more likely to go check out another game.

For players it means less people in the releveling process. That directly affects those who wish to tr as there choices of people to level with are diminished. It affects newer players who will have less experienced players to get them through to cap which means a lessened amoutn of new people reaching and joining the endgame process to replace those that leave through attrition.

Theres also economic repurcussions like less need for cannith crafted items and the likes for lower levels but thats another subject that gets way too long winded.

So really even if you are okay with the change it doesnt mean that it might not affect you in a negative way.

I definitely see eye to eye with you.

Yep, but not the end of the world. Levels 1-20 are a lot faster than they used to be... It's probably a net wash in time spent.... And you are STILL going to want to build up your epic destinies...

Every one of you guys who TRs 10+ times are the same people who are going to want to max out every epic destiny. So TRing 1-25 multiple times is not a terrible deal.

Saying that TR’ing 1-25 is not a terrible deal simply because people like myself can already efficiently TR is in direct contradiction with this…

I agree with this too... I want to be able to continue playing multiple characters, all of which are "solid" enough to contribute meaningfully... I used to have 7 characters... I dropped that to 5 when I started the epic grind... Please don't make it so I have to concentrate on 1-3 characters.

TR’ing 1-25 is in conflict with my desire to level my alternate characters as well. You are saying that it isn’t a big deal for us completionists, but realize that us completionists also have 4-5 other characters that we want to enjoy as well. Instead of enjoying those characters, I’m spending time on getting BACK to where I was previously, with no extra gain.

[Arlathen]

Great system as it stands, I think, and I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on Epic Destinies.

I've been bored with Item Grinding @ 20 End-Gaming for some time, and I think Epic Destinies will replace the random lottery item grind with a much better system of working my way towards a better character (as well as item grinding, lol).

I'd also be interested in knowing how the drop rate mechanics are going to change based on Epic 'Difficulty' changes being implemented. EBOB, as per the previous example, still gives horrible rates on Scrolls and Seals. Is running this quest on Epic 'Casual or Normal' going to see even worse drop rates to the point we don't bother and keep running it on present Hard/Elite difficulties?
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Onto the TR Concerns:

Let me start by saying I hate the TR concept, and I love the TR concept.

At heart I'm an evil power gaming min/maxer - the Real World(tm) says I'm a casual gamer with a boredom threshold somewhere below the attention span of a gnat once my enthusiasm burns out on an idea. So to me TRing is a horrible waste of time but I love the little goodies (+3 To Hit/Tactics from FighterPL? Ooh please! Wait, what THREE lives and roll my toon?! Nooooo...).

So while I can't empathise with muti-TR grinders out that don't have a carrot for doing 21-25, I do appreciate the fact there should be mechanics in place to ensure that 20-25 can 'get in on the action' so to speak.

So for me, making TRs only available at 25 is a big mistake I feel*. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd personally never TR again. Why bother with TRing to get my Fighter PLs when I can just go and punch someone through time?

So let a character run through some TR lives, TRing at 20, and then let Epic Destinies be our end game. There are our character 'destinies' for crying out loud!

For those that want to stop off and do some 21-25 content before the next TR, the previously mention XP bonus token for the time spent in said epic content is a nice incentive.

* Coloured and Bolded for emphasis to catch a passing skimming Dev

[Carpone]

My biggest concern with Epic Destinies: Getting stuck with one that's been nerfed after I already unlocked it. At least with Prestige Classes I have the option of respending my AP elsewhere. With Epic Destinies, I'll have to go back to XPing to unlock a different one.

[die]

Some pages ago someone asked for the list of Epic Destiny names.

Here they are:

The "Magister" i likey ty

[MadFloyd]

Great system as it stands, I think, and I'm really looking forward to getting my hands on Epic Destinies.

I've been bored with Item Grinding @ 20 End-Gaming for some time, and I think Epic Destinies will replace the random lottery item grind with a much better system of working my way towards a better character (as well as item grinding, lol).

I'd also be interested in knowing how the drop rate mechanics are going to change based on Epic 'Difficulty' changes being implemented. EBOB, as per the previous example, still gives horrible rates on Scrolls and Seals. Is running this quest on Epic 'Casual or Normal' going to see even worse drop rates to the point we don't bother and keep running it on present Hard/Elite difficulties?
__________________________________________________ ____________________

Onto the TR Concerns:

Let me start by saying I hate the TR concept, and I love the TR concept.

At heart I'm an evil power gaming min/maxer - the Real World(tm) says I'm a casual gamer with a boredom threshold somewhere below the attention span of a gnat once my enthusiasm burns out on an idea. So to me TRing is a horrible waste of time but I love the little goodies (+3 To Hit/Tactics from FighterPL? Ooh please! Wait, what THREE lives and roll my toon?! Nooooo...).

So while I can't empathise with muti-TR grinders out that don't have a carrot for doing 21-25, I do appreciate the fact there should be mechanics in place to ensure that 20-25 can 'get in on the action' so to speak.

So for me, making TRs only available at 25 is a big mistake I feel*. In fact, I'm pretty sure I'd personally never TR again. Why bother with TRing to get my Fighter PLs when I can just go and punch someone through time?

So let a character run through some TR lives, TRing at 20, and then let Epic Destinies be our end game. There are our character 'destinies' for crying out loud!

For those that want to stop off and do some 21-25 content before the next TR, the previously mention XP bonus token for the time spent in said epic content is a nice incentive.

* Coloured and Bolded for emphasis to catch a passing skimming Dev

Color is effective!

As I mentioned a few posts back, we will not be requiring level 25 in order to TR. It will remain at level 20.

[die]

I definitely see eye to eye with you.



Saying that TR’ing 1-25 is not a terrible deal simply because people like myself can already efficiently TR is in direct contradiction with this…



TR’ing 1-25 is in conflict with my desire to level my alternate characters as well. You are saying that it isn’t a big deal for us completionists, but realize that us completionists also have 4-5 other characters that we want to enjoy as well. Instead of enjoying those characters, I’m spending time on getting BACK to where I was previously, with no extra gain.

Will you ever accept responsibilty for your own action's and decisions in regards too playing this game.?

[Cetus]

Will you ever accept responibilty for your own action's and decisions in regards too playing this game.?

Will you ever try and provide a position in an interesting discussion such as this? Or would you rather make unsubstantiated and almost implicitly insulting comments like the one above kaza?

I'm fully aware of my decisions and actions in this game. I love the game and only wish to see it grow in a manner that is consistent with frustration-free experiences. And this concept of releveling will be a source of eventual frustration for many folks in the not too distant future.