Epic Destinies

[Scraap]

LR costs money. TR does not.

LR does not rectify race issues or alignment issues. TR does.

LR is level swap limited. TR is not.

Basically if you have, like me, a dwarven fighter kensai the most recently discussed racial PrE of SD would be pretty useless to you. It has no synergy since another race could still have that PrE as a fighter kensai build. So basically the build becomes substandard as a dps (kensai) would be far better off being a horc or helf. Now that was already true, but the enhancment change would pile on the racial PrE choice also which is a huge deal.

There is no fixing that with an LR.

Less severe case. Deep multiclass build. New enhancement system from what little we have seen has a strong potential to make many of these really gimped compared to more focused builds. Would take multiple LR hearts to rectify for non trivial cash.

Just two basic cases that are based upon what little we know so far.

On that note, for future-proofing, perhaps a few more options for LRs and a racial version via epic token turn ins would suffice? Keep the 20 for a TR, since that requires re-leveling, 30 for a racial since at the same time you'd be working on unlocking more epic destinies, 35-50 for an lr +1-3 using the same logic?

Most of the discomfort involves long term planning to adapt to a fluid (at times, would almost say chaotic) environment, after all.

[Deamus]

Please do not increase the grind of tr . I tr only of necessity as i wrote in other posts . Some people just get past lives cause they have to be competitive with the rest . If you increase the tr to 25 lvl it increases even more the grind . Also do not provide carrots to those who want to go tr at lvl 25 they get already to much advantage from the rest of us .


I'm ok with whatever decreases the tr grind I cant provide yet a solution to the problem but please don't make the gap even bigger between different game styles . Imo tr xp should be reduced more for 3rd life.

With epic destinies as it is maybe you actually providing a way to lessen the gap between completionists/multiple trs and "casual powergamer " who don't like to tr.

[Aelithia]

Epic levels currently grant 2+(Int Mod) skill points, with all skills available as class skills.

Just for clarification, does this mean that e.g. a pure wizard would be able to completely max Use Magic Device at 28 ranks (11 heroic ranks, 15 ranks added at epic levels as a class skill), or does it mean the wizard would be able to achieve 16.5 (11.5 heroic ranks, 5 epic ranks)?

[Captain_Wizbang]

*edited* I found a post here that shed light on things for my friend.

A little easier explanation between heroic & epic destiny is in order though.

[Dagolar]

While the overall concept you offered is a bit hazy.. the basic idea is flat out brilliant.
Here's the idea I came up with from your basis (and perhaps it's the same thing as yours, I had a little troubl following your flow):

Each time you hit 25, you can a permanent passive feat that adds +5% to epic xp gains.
Thus, each time you TR, if you decide to run to 25 before TRing again, it'll come faster, and faster, and faster.

It's definitive reward and reason to cap even on TRs, encourages TRing, it minimizes the flaws with the epic levels, and it doesn't unbalance anything.

Edit: Clarification: Xp increases as I detailed only affect leveling, not Destinies;
While including them, or a smaller bonus for them, would certainly reward TRs- it would also encourage delays on earning Destinies, which is counter-intuitive to the design. Regardless of benefits, my design thus far only relates to basic leveling.



Ought be closer to 15, not including any challenges. Three packs, each at roughly 5 quests each, as well as the challenge pack.

Okay, I've now well and sold myself on the idea.
I'd welcome any counterpoints to dissuade me from it, but until then I'm going to have to keep pushing it

lol you better go back and read the release on page one they say only 5 quests,

I welcome you to provide a link? o_o

[Calebro]

I'll echo the UMD concerns.
Epic levels could easily allow any skill as a class skill, but it should be with the exception of UMD. UMD should only be a class skill if it was a class skill from Heroic levels. To do otherwise would be unbalancing.

[Voldomar]

But now, with the addition of difficulty levels for epic quests, the option to run "easy" epics will widen exponentially.
I understand the concern you (and others) have regarding this issue, but I really think that adding difficulty levels to these quests will alleviate the problem.
ie: They've already addressed that issue and found a solution.
Finding a competent group for epics now seems like a chore sometimes because there are too many limiting factors. Everyone needs to be level 20, everyone needs to be on their A-game, etc etc etc.

With xp penalties in place there are going to be even more limiting factors.
You'll have to be in range in order to gain xp, you are going to run a great number of "no-xp" epics with 25 levs in party, and so on... This of course assuming there will be overlevel/powerlevel penalties, which we don't know yet.

[Dagolar]

I'll echo the UMD concerns.
Epic levels could easily allow any skill as a class skill, but it should be with the exception of UMD. UMD should only be a class skill if it was a class skill from Heroic levels. To do otherwise would be unbalancing.

Quick fix:

All class skills from each heroic level class are combined together to determine which skills are epic level class skills.

As far as 2sp/level goes, that's rather harshly unfair to skill point based classes and builds.

[Coldin]

I like the 20 TR ability and keeping your destinies progress. I don't mind having to re-level 21-25 if I TR a character, just as I re-leveled 1-20. If you had just plain raised the level cap to 25, you would lose everything, so I appreciate the bone thrown to TR's to let them TR again earlier and to keep some of their progress alive. Thumbs up.

One concern I have is the starting destinies being tied to your "role." That seems contrary to the "build something weird and still make it viable" idea presented earlier. The melee bard, the deep clonk, the battlecleric, the wizmonk. Some are more viable than others at end game now, but the bard doesn't want to be in Arcane, the deeply splashed clonk (and maybe some not so deeply splashed) and battle cleric don't want to be in divine and the wizmonk probably doesn't want to be in arcane. If you play an oddball build in PUGlic now, you already have to explain 9 times that you aren't pigeonholed into your icon's "role." Granted, once you get your 3 levels of destinies (in a bridge destiny) you can move on.

Another concern I have is the actual role types and their placement. Bridging Monk and Pallie makes sense, as pallie's are a more melee oriented class than FvS or Clerics. Bards and Arti's are more melee oriented than Sorc or Wizard, so they bridge to the melee type. The rogue bit doesn't make much sense but it's kind of the odd man out and can at least UMD an arcane scroll. The fighter bridging to the divine-caster-type Ranger class makes less sense than bridging with Barbarian. As of now, if you want a BardBarian you need to unlock Bard (or Arti), Rogue, Fighter, Ranger then Barbarian. If I'm counting right, that's 12 level of unlock just to get tier 0 Barbarian. And this is with Bards whose Warchanter 1 prestige specifically gives you bonuses to Barbarian Rage. That said, it also makes sense to connect the other types to each other as well. Bridging Ranger with Cleric (as both are divine and can swap spells in a tavern), Druid with Wizard (can swap spells in tavern, casts more arcane-modeled spells than Ranger), and FvS with Sorcerer (these two and Bard are the only ones that don't need to memorize spells beforehand, and Bard is already taken) would make it easier to get where you ultimately want to go.

Lastly, I see "Shadowdancer Sneak +1d8." Epic sneak attack?

I think, if you have 18+ levels in a class, you actually get access to their full sphere, instead of just one specific epic destiny. If it's a multiclass, like say 6 Fighter/ 14 Paladin, then you get access to either the Paladin or the Fighter epic destiny. If you were really crazy, and went 6 rogue, 7 wizard, and 7 barbarian, then you'd get access to Rogue, Wizard, and Barbarian epic destinies. So overall, I think even multiclasses will get a bit of choice of how they want to proceed with a new epic destiny. Of course, some classes might have to work for a bit till finally getting a certain epic destiny.

[MadFloyd]

it said there willonly be 5 quests released.. 5 quests and a raid will get you too 25?.. then why is every one so worked up shoot 5 lv's should only take a few hrs then really

What or who is 'it'? This is completely false.

[Crann]

@the Devs:

In your enhancement tree it shows ~ 500,000 of 2,000,000 being one "globe" which I am taking to represent one Destiny level. If there are 10 Destinies, that would equate to 20 million xp to max them all out.

You also mentioned that the Destiny levels would have lower xp requirements than Epic levels. So each Epic Level is > 500,000xp. I suspect it will be much higher.

If this is the case, and xp degradation is left in tact for quest repetition, is it even possible to grind out enough xp to obtain epic level 25 without endlessly grinding challenges? Does this means no degradation for Epic quests?

[voodoogroves]

I'll echo the UMD concerns.
Epic levels could easily allow any skill as a class skill, but it should be with the exception of UMD. UMD should only be a class skill if it was a class skill from Heroic levels. To do otherwise would be unbalancing.

Not sure its such a bid deal at that point

[die]

Okay, I've now well and sold myself on the idea.
I'd welcome any counterpoints to dissuade me from it, but until then I'm going to have to keep pushing it



I welcome you to provide a link? o_o

http://www.ddo.com/en/ddogameinfo/de...per-roundtable

You did read what we are all talking about right?

[die]

What or who is 'it'? This is completely false.

http://www.ddo.com/en/ddogameinfo/de...per-roundtable that is were i read it

[Calebro]

With xp penalties in place there are going to be even more limiting factors.
You'll have to be in range in order to gain xp, you are going to run a great number of "no-xp" epics with 25 levs in party, and so on... This of course assuming there will be overlevel/powerlevel penalties, which we don't know yet.

So set your LFM to only allow characters between appropriate levels, just like you do currently with regular Heroic quests.

Implementing the previous suggestion (that has been suggested numerous times) to allow TRs into Epic quests at level 18 would open up even more options.
Epic <insert quest here> on normal, levels 18-21
Epic <insert quest here> on hard, levels 19-22
Epic <insert quest here> on hard, levels 20-23
Epic <insert quest here> on elite, levels 21-24
Epic <insert quest here> on elite, levels 22-25
whatever

[Deamus]

One of my greatest fears with a new grind like this is the power level gain from it is huge and the grind is so immense that I am forced to just play 1-3 characters. I have a feeling that the power gain from levels 21 to 25 and with the destinies, etc that this is going to be a greater power gain then just gettting some past lives. I am concerned that the devs and some of the players want to make this a massive grind that a player will have to spend alot of gametime on each character they want to get to level 25.

This concern by several players is that they have to regrind 21-25 everytime - well if the devs make level 21-25 not that much of a grind then their concern becomes a lot less warranted. It is talk that this should be a really big grind from 21-25 from yourself and others that bothers me. I really enjoy playing 10 or so characters actively and they are competitive with players with many past lives whether they are 32 pt build or my 5th life divine, but who knows next update if the grind from 21-25 is obscene and the power level gain is so great then I may be forced to just play 1-3 characters which irks the heck out of me.

Also this /signed except the part of competitiveness imo if you are caster or divine you are required to have 3+ past lives so as to be competitive at least which i do not agree at all .

[yk49]

Almost 30 pages in one day and a confusing wall of text to read is too much for me after last night...

Anyone, smart and generous enough to make an "highlights" thread about epic destinies news please? Please! (shr plz lol)

http://ddowiki.com/page/Epic_Destinies

maybe it still is a wall of txt, but its sectioned and ordered at least.

[Garix]

http://www.ddo.com/en/ddogameinfo/de...per-roundtable that is were i read it

Just searched that page and nowhere can I see that there are only 5 quests. There is a statement about the 5 new epic levels but nothing about quests.

[die]

Just searched that page and nowhere can I see that there are only 5 quests. There is a statement about the 5 new epic levels but nothing about quests.

yes i just readit again my self....and no were could i find either.. i take it back i must have missread i sure thought i seen 5 new quests.. sorry guys. now im even more happy

But now that we are on the subject how many new quests will there be not including raid and challenges?

[Ganolyn]

The XPack is starting out with a certain number of quests and wilderness areas. I seriously doubt that it will be the end of it. Eventually they will add more material (I would hope), so it will get easier as time goes on to level up to 25 while not having to repeat things too much.