Epic Destinies

[Combat_Wombat]

If the level cap rises again (a possibility that should not be ruled out) then you will find a heavy dose of concern and complaint because you will be stuck between the same problem again:

• Do you increase the True Reincarnation grind by making the new level cap the requirement to True Reincarnate?
• Do you use level 25 as the required level for True Reincarnation?

Thematically, once you hit 20 and obtain Epic status, that is a proper time to be allowed to transcend anew.

Mechanically, if the total EXP requirement increases to True Reincarnate, it will cause annoyance because "it used to be better to do in the past".

Socially, on these forums, there was not much negative stated a
bout the fact that True Reincarnation could occur at level 20, Epic levels would be beyond 20, and Heroic levels would be required after a True Reincarnation to get back to Epic levels. That is knowledge the forum folks has had for a couple months and the lack of an uproar for the initially proposed system may be a metric that should weigh in to this decision.

Mr cow nailed it here you can't raise the level people tr at. A small fraction of the player base are serial TRs and would have any downside from the TR at 20 with cap at 25. If you keep raising the TR cap every time the level cap goes up it will force almost the entire player base out of doing TRs

[Algulcz]

it's a choice to tr if the re grind is too much to handle then don't tr

I disagree, TR is a choice but made for us by someone else. TRing is practically mandatory to function properly. lev20Wizard without 1-2wizard pastlifes? good luck penetrating mobs spell resistance.

[Calebro]

But being able to unlock destinies is irrelevant you can do that whether you are at 25 or 20.

How is keeping Epic Destiny XP earned toward your preferred Destiny irrelevant in a discussion about whether or not XP is wasted?
It is not wasted. It is saved for later use. Saved for later use is the opposite of wasted. It is completely relevant.

[LeLoric]

How is keeping Epic Destiny XP earned toward your preferred Destiny irrelevant in a discussion about whether or not XP is wasted?
It is not wasted. It is saved for later use. Saved for later use is the opposite of wasted. It is completely relevant.

The epic destiny xp is saved. The epic level xp is lost they are two seperate and independant things. Saying that you keep your epic destiny xp doesn't change the fact that you lose your epic level's xp. In fact Epic destinies being dependant on levels means you still have to get to the higher epic levels to utilize the epic destiny xp that you kept.

[Captain_Wizbang]

we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

That needs to be posted as a headline somewhere. Like on the Chronicle page or something.

I've talked with at least 4 people now that are totally confused about the Destiny system.

Kudos to the PLAYERS giving some awesome feedback on this thread.

[Dagolar]

I

Another concern I have is the actual role types and their placement. Bridging Monk and Pallie makes sense, as pallie's are a more melee oriented class than FvS or Clerics. Bards and Arti's are more melee oriented than Sorc or Wizard, so they bridge to the melee type. The rogue bit doesn't make much sense but it's kind of the odd man out and can at least UMD an arcane scroll. The fighter bridging to the divine-caster-type Ranger class makes less sense than bridging with Barbarian. As of now, if you want a BardBarian you need to unlock Bard (or Arti), Rogue, Fighter, Ranger then Barbarian. If I'm counting right, that's 12 level of unlock just to get tier 0 Barbarian. And this is with Bards whose Warchanter 1 prestige specifically gives you bonuses to Barbarian Rage. That said, it also makes sense to connect the other types to each other as well. Bridging Ranger with Cleric (as both are divine and can swap spells in a tavern), Druid with Wizard (can swap spells in tavern, casts more arcane-modeled spells than Ranger), and FvS with Sorcerer (these two and Bard are the only ones that don't need to memorize spells beforehand, and Bard is already taken) would make it easier to get where you ultimately want to go.

Ah, geeze. Always someone that feels the need to bring matters firmly back to topic and ruin it for the rest of us ( ;P).

The spheres are actually based on pen and paper considerations; Where, for, example, bards were considered a rogue offspin.
You'll notice the sphere you have concerns about (Primal) is not the 'Druidic' sphere, but the 'Primal' sphere. So, it's not a question of rangers and druids having some overlap in spellcasting and the sort that differs them from melee, it's their connection to primal forces. Mind, in pen and paper barbarians can also gain shapeshifting and the sort. Rangers, however, are still a martial warrior- focused combat and techniques and approaches.

As far as your linking goes, it's based off some misconceptions on associations. To be suitable, you'd link druid with cleric, bard with barbarian, sorcerer with druid, that sort of thing. That, is working off of inherent associations.
Again, this is pnp/system based, so it may be a matter of familiarity.

Regardless, that idea'd make for an awkward arrangement, decrease the flavor and decisions involved, and otherwise quirk things up. I'm firmly against the idea.

Of course, in the future, as we get more classes, we'll possibly see some sphere rearrangement.

I'd like to see Swashbuckler in the melee sphere as the link to rogue, for one..

[Thrudh]

I assume once I hit 20 I'll start running the usual raids/epics (+ new raids/epics) and gain XP from running EChrono,EDQ/EBOB/whatever. In addition I'll get to unlock epic destinies + keep them next life. Compared to now where I hit 20 and just grind tokens/gear, it doesn't seem like a bad thing.

Yep, I'm perfectly fine with this system... But then I don't just take a week off between TRs.. I usually hit 20 and stay there for a long time, while TRing a DIFFERENT character...

All my guys are getting TRed 3-4 times each, but it's months between each TR.

So running up to 25 and getting epic destiny xp sounds like fun to me.

[nibel]

Just stopping to say that I loved the way you handled epic destinies XP with TRing. Just set 21+ players as level 20 when running heroic dungeon/raids to avoid the dreaded void levels, and everything will be fine.

Actually, the only thing about the new level cap that worry me is how my potential 11+ crafted items will get a ML raise and not be acessible when U14 hit the live servers.

[Phemt81]

I am of the opinion that post-U13 tomes are flawed.

What is/are the flaw/s?

If you don't mind sharing your opinion.

[Calebro]

The epic destiny xp is saved. The epic level xp is lost they are two seperate and independant things. Saying that you keep your epic destiny xp doesn't change the fact that you lose your epic level's xp. In fact Epic destinies being dependant on levels means you still have to get to the higher epic levels to utilize the epic destiny xp that you kept.

So when you TR right now, do you keep any of your XP? Do you start out as a level 13 or something? How is this in any way different from what we have now?
I really don't understand what everyone is complaining about. You get to keep some part of the XP for your efforts, which is more than we can say at the moment.
It's a good system. It rewards working off some epics before you TR. You lose nothing that you wouldn't fully expect to lose, and you get to keep something that you should have no reason to expect to keep.

[SableShadow]

I disagree, TR is a choice but made for us by someone else. TRing is practically mandatory to function properly. lev20Wizard without 1-2wizard pastlifes? good luck penetrating mobs spell resistance.

Then TR is fundamentally broken in and of itself, in ways that have nothing to do with epic levels.

Probably wont be a new superior race. Will be more like an old race getting new life breathed into it again due to the changes being made, the min maxers figuring out what the best class / race combos are in accordance with the new changes, and then TRing to that after finishing off a druid life.

Other than that, what he is basically saying is that If I cap a TR, my only option if I dont want to throw Xp away is to TR right at 20. If I cap a TR and want to use that toon to raid for a few weeks than TR it again, any XP I have gained above 20 is a waste. I personally dont mind it because we dont even have the option to gain XP above 20 right now. If I raid for 2 weeks after TRing and then TR again, timewise I still used those 2 weeks to raid where i could have used them to TR, regardless if I gained XP or not during that time.

Being able to TR at level 20 instead of the new cap of 25 is a feature, not a bug ... hence MF's apparent surprise at the responses.
Nothing is thrown away; heck, we'll probably see build plans that *require* a TR from 25 to optimize early acquisition of specific EDs.

[RandomKeypress]

Uh - very late to the discussion, I know. I should also confess to not reading every comment in this thread - if someone has already touched on this point, I apologise. I was happy to sit in the sidelines - not too fussed with the TR thing either way - but I am very worried by the +2 skill points plus int mod.

I have a skill-intensive character - a rogue. This change will leave me with 6 less skill points per level than I am used to. I will have to choose with that character between being able to do my job and spot / search / disarm traps, pick the hardest locks, diplo and bluff my enemies and use UMD. Most of those skills do not benefit from anything other than complete commitment, so I'll have to drop UMD. As a counter-point, my humble wizard will now be able invest perfectly and beat my rogue on UMD.

Rogues are designed to require high levels of skills - artificers too. Based on the info given at the moment - skill rate significantly reduced, no increase in SA bonuses unless you pick the right destiny, no more special abilities, no more improved trap sense - my main would be better off just picking five more levels of rogue rather than entertaining epic destinies.

You could argue that there is an epic destiny designed to compensate for this, but that would mean that we either pick the 'right' epic destiny and never swap or else cripple our character. I appreciate that the epic destinies will be good, but will it be a choice or a no-brainer? Will all rogues be shadowdancers, all bards fatesingers (or else be roundly mocked and lectured in groups)?

[LeLoric]

So when you TR right now, do you keep any of your XP? Do you start out as a level 13 or something? How is this in any way different from what we have now?
I really don't understand what everyone is complaining about. You get to keep some part of the XP for your efforts, which is more than we can say at the moment.
It's a good system. It rewards working off some epics before you TR. You lose nothing that you wouldn't fully expect to lose, and you get to keep something that you should have no reason to expect to keep.

If I tr its for a benefit.

Under the new system I can tr at lev 20 for the same benefit.

If you've gone over 20 tr'ing is still the same benefit but it takes much more work to get back to where you were.

The cost of tr'ing has increased while the benefit stays the same once you go over 20. Therefore either staying at 20 to tr or leveling to 25 and not tr'ing anymore becomes the ideals and creates a big rift between the people who enjoy tr'ing and those who play at endgame. And for those that enjoy both you have lost the opportunity to experience both on that character without a much larger xp grind.

[LeLoric]

Uh - very late to the discussion, I know. I should also confess to not reading every comment in this thread - if someone has already touched on this point, I apologise. I was happy to sit in the sidelines - not too fussed with the TR thing either way - but I am very worried by the +2 skill points plus int mod.

I have a skill-intensive character - a rogue. This change will leave me with 6 less skill points per level than I am used to. I will have to choose with that character between being able to do my job and spot / search / disarm traps, pick the hardest locks, diplo and bluff my enemies and use UMD. Most of those skills do not benefit from anything other than complete commitment, so I'll have to drop UMD. As a counter-point, my humble wizard will now be able invest perfectly and beat my rogue on UMD.

Rogues are designed to require high levels of skills - artificers too. Based on the info given at the moment - skill rate significantly reduced, no increase in SA bonuses unless you pick the right destiny, no more special abilities, no more improved trap sense - my main would be better off just picking five more levels of rogue rather than entertaining epic destinies.

You could argue that there is an epic destiny designed to compensate for this, but that would mean that we either pick the 'right' epic destiny and never swap or else cripple our character. I appreciate that the epic destinies will be good, but will it be a choice or a no-brainer? Will all rogues be shadowdancers, all bards fatesingers (or else be roundly mocked and lectured in groups)?

Yep that proposed skill point system penalizes high skill point granted classes and extremely benefits high int classes.

[Calebro]

Uh - very late to the discussion, I know. I should also confess to not reading every comment in this thread - if someone has already touched on this point, I apologise. I was happy to sit in the sidelines - not too fussed with the TR thing either way - but I am very worried by the +2 skill points plus int mod.

I have a skill-intensive character - a rogue. This change will leave me with 6 less skill points per level than I am used to. I will have to choose with that character between being able to do my job and spot / search / disarm traps, pick the hardest locks, diplo and bluff my enemies and use UMD. Most of those skills do not benefit from anything other than complete commitment, so I'll have to drop UMD. As a counter-point, my humble wizard will now be able invest perfectly and beat my rogue on UMD.

Rogues are designed to require high levels of skills - artificers too. Based on the info given at the moment - skill rate significantly reduced, no increase in SA bonuses unless you pick the right destiny, no more special abilities, no more improved trap sense - my main would be better off just picking five more levels of rogue rather than entertaining epic destinies.

You could argue that there is an epic destiny designed to compensate for this, but that would mean that we either pick the 'right' epic destiny and never swap or else cripple our character. I appreciate that the epic destinies will be good, but will it be a choice or a no-brainer? Will all rogues be shadowdancers, all bards fatesingers (or else be roundly mocked and lectured in groups)?

Epic difficulties (from casual to elite) are slated to be somewhere between hard and elite for what is currently Epic. If your rogue can currently function in epics, then you should not have any problems functioning later. The extra skills from epic levels are gravy, not meat.

[Jaxom_Faux]

Appreciate the post, but at this point we won't be entertaining such a change. I threw the idea out to see what came back and between the feedback and discussions here, we will leave TR as a level 20/heroic requirement.

TYVM. I think the system is fine as is.

[Dagolar]

I was actually suggesting that the passive feat bonus would be for heroic XP. Going deeper into the Epic levels would increase the bonus % the passive feat would apply to your next life of levelling from 1 to 20.

Or if it is technically possible, instead of granting another bonus % to XP, have the new passive feat decrease the overall XP required to level from 1 to 20 for TR's by a certain %. (Or is this the same math just done two different ways? )

I think it should be an incremental bonus either way.

Example: Player attains level 21 and receives the passive feat Epic Vitality granting an 1% bonus to all heroic XP. That bonus would increase by 2% if she levels to 22. If instead, she TR's then the 1% bonus applies to the heroic levelling up.

If instead she levels to 25, then a 5% bonus would be applied to levelling up after TR only to 20. Maybe somehow this stacks like past life feats. Maybe it stacks 3 times at an increase of 1.5x the bonus so as not to become over powered.

On top of that, this passive feat should somehow lessen the xp penalty or remove that penalty for epic characters to group with each other so that a 21 could group with a 25 without any penalties.

Either way, I think this is a good idea that should be seriously considered.

I think I still prefer the epic xp approach, but as you say, it's a good idea worth consideration either way.

[Hendrik]

The epic destiny xp is saved. The epic level xp is lost they are two seperate and independant things. Saying that you keep your epic destiny xp doesn't change the fact that you lose your epic level's xp. In fact Epic destinies being dependant on levels means you still have to get to the higher epic levels to utilize the epic destiny xp that you kept.

If your a TR fanatic/completionist, would it not make sense to not take any Epic Levels and just hold on to the Epic XP until you are ready to take those Epic Levels?

You 'bank' the Epic XP through TR - nothing lost. You don't take any Epic Training - nothing lost on TR.

If your a completionist, you know in advance you will loose any Epic Training - so don't take any. Go and play End Game with your friends, store up some Epic XP.

[danotmano1998]

Just a breather, I have to say Kudos to everyone posting good, helpful feedback and discussion.

Players AND Turbine Employess.

+1's all around. (Well, in spirit, anyhow.)

[SableShadow]

(or else be roundly mocked and lectured in groups)?

I've been mocked for having int too low, too high, and now too low again.
People don't change.