Epic Destinies

[NortheOfThelanis]

Still reviewing the thread, but is this to say you don't want the hit points, skill points, feats from 21 - 25?

I believe he means, once you've leveled all of your epic trees (10, currently), and lets say you did that on your first run through of 21-25, that the next time you do 21-25, you aren't unlocking anything for the NEXT time that you decide to do the TR grind (new class released, perhaps). I see the validity in it. When you TR, assuming you don't just do the same class more than 3 times, you get a nice free past life passive for your grind. Once you have grinded all of the epic destiny xp, you gain nothing more (permanent) from the 21-25 grind, assuming you TR again in the future.

I jumped the gun on taking it as he didn't appreciate the epic destiny xp that we get to keep, but that isn't his point, I don't believe.

I think we all are appreciative of the epic destiny xp that we get to keep. People just appear to be concerned about the future and how this pans out, as more and more classes are released, and people want to keep their completionist feat, I suppose.

I personally don't mind the 21-25 grind again, because I like to grind. But I can see the point of 'the other side' in this thread.

[Jaxom_Faux]

5 quests? and yes i know there is a out door area all the larger expansions have had a out dorr area and had more than 5 quests?.. so this was really kinda more hype than product?..

now dont get me wrong i love the game and know they fixed bugs and gave us a new raid and a new enhancment tree but 5 quests i was think along the lines of atlest....9-12

devs have said next several updates will be further epic quests and raids.

also i think we're getting a hella lot of content, just not every ounce of it is new quests.

[Tolero]

I believe he means, once you've leveled all of your epic trees (10, currently), and lets say you did that on your first run through of 21-25, that the next time you do 21-25, you aren't unlocking anything for the NEXT time that you decide to do the TR grind (new class released, perhaps). I see the validity in it. When you TR, assuming you don't just do the same class more than 3 times, you get a nice free past life passive for your grind. Once you have grinded all of the epic destiny xp, you gain nothing more (permanent) from the 21-25 grind, assuming you TR again in the future.

I jumped the gun on taking it as he didn't appreciate the epic destiny xp that we get to keep, but that isn't his point, I don't believe.

I think we all are appreciative of the epic destiny xp that we get to keep. People just appear to be concerned about the future and how this pans out, as more and more classes are released, and people want to keep their completionist feat, I suppose.

I personally don't mind the 21-25 grind again, because I like to grind. But I can see the point of 'the other side' in this thread.

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

[shadereaper33]

I understand what you guys are asking for, and it is a valid concern for a portion of the player base. Just to put it into perspective though, you are asking to get +50hp, +3 BAB, +2 saves, 2 epic feats, and 1 stat point on top of whatever your character would get normally for hitting 20 on a TR if you already did the 21-25 run on a previous life. That is what you are asking for, and I personally don't have any issue with it.

The problem I have with what you are asking for is that it will lead to people running the 21-25 quests only once, which means that newer people trying to do the 21-25 run for the first time will have a far smaller pool of people doing those quests to try to run with, and with fewer people running those quests, fewer people will get to the new level 25 cap, at least not as quickly, which in turn will lead to an even larger gap between the haves and the have-nots.

Something I could get behind, to try and accommodate both sides of this argument, is some form of epic xp bonus based upon the number of completed epic destinies, such as an additional 10% or so per destiny you complete. That way, people would still run all of the content, providing more people for groups, while the people who take the time to grind out all 10 destinies to level 5 before getting completionist will be able to go through the 21-25 grind at double the rate of someone who hasn't gotten the destinies. Yes, you would still have to redo levels 21-25, but it wouldn't be as much of a grind as it was the first time around. Also, keep in mind that while leveling from 21-25 to do continue to gain abilities for your character, so it isn't like there is nothing gained by doing them again.

[dragonofsteel2]

Still reviewing the thread, but is this to say you don't want the hit points, skill points, feats from 21 - 25?

Hmm did not have the same amount of hit points, skill points, feats from 21 to 25 last time. As stated these epic Levels will be lot more xp then 1 to 20. Is this 2mill, 3mill, 4mil. For grinding extra 4.2million xp with tomes appling we can Past life abilities. What the extra benfit for redoing the xp for the Epic Levels?

[Cetus]

I believe he means, once you've leveled all of your epic trees (10, currently), and lets say you did that on your first run through of 21-25, that the next time you do 21-25, you aren't unlocking anything for the NEXT time that you decide to do the TR grind (new class released, perhaps). I see the validity in it. When you TR, assuming you don't just do the same class more than 3 times, you get a nice free past life passive for your grind. Once you have grinded all of the epic destiny xp, you gain nothing more (permanent) from the 21-25 grind, assuming you TR again in the future.

I jumped the gun on taking it as he didn't appreciate the epic destiny xp that we get to keep, but that isn't his point, I don't believe.

I think we all are appreciative of the epic destiny xp that we get to keep. People just appear to be concerned about the future and how this pans out, as more and more classes are released, and people want to keep their completionist feat, I suppose.

I personally don't mind the 21-25 grind again, because I like to grind. But I can see the point of 'the other side' in this thread.

Yea, I fully appreciate the epic destiny xp we retain. I'm making that clear in case it wasn't earlier. But what I also want to make clear is that epic destiny xp is a piece of what we get to keep. The other piece we do not get to keep is the physical slaving away of actually getting levels 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25. It is still a grind that needs to be repeated each time we decide to pile on a past life. Whether we decide to get another pally life for healing amp, decide for full blown completionist, need a race change come augusts enhancement revamps, or a new class or race is released, we will need to eventually abandon the endgame world for some time to then return to a re-grind of levels 21, 22, 23, 24, and finally 25 without any reward for the first or second time it was done.

At least when we did this with levels 1-20, we did it volitionally in order to acquire the associated perk. Here, we are doing it simply because it was taken away from us for wanting to tr again.

[Khurse]

I believe he means, once you've leveled all of your epic trees (10, currently), and lets say you did that on your first run through of 21-25, that the next time you do 21-25, you aren't unlocking anything for the NEXT time that you decide to do the TR grind (new class released, perhaps). I see the validity in it. When you TR, assuming you don't just do the same class more than 3 times, you get a nice free past life passive for your grind. Once you have grinded all of the epic destiny xp, you gain nothing more (permanent) from the 21-25 grind, assuming you TR again in the future.

I jumped the gun on taking it as he didn't appreciate the epic destiny xp that we get to keep, but that isn't his point, I don't believe.

I think we all are appreciative of the epic destiny xp that we get to keep. People just appear to be concerned about the future and how this pans out, as more and more classes are released, and people want to keep their completionist feat, I suppose.

I personally don't mind the 21-25 grind again, because I like to grind. But I can see the point of 'the other side' in this thread.

I get the concern as well(now), but saying you should (effectively)get to instantly be 25 as soon as you hit 20 just in case you feel like TRing after that seems like a bit much.
Still with the number of quests in the new pack, I'm not thinking anyone is going to be hitting 25 anytime soon after launch,so we'll have to see how long it takes to go from 21-25. People have managed to get 3rd life TR's down to insanely small amounts of time, might end up that way with 21-25 as well.

[DemonMage]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

I'm not saying I need an Epic Past Life (NNF), but I wouldn't be opposed to it. I'm already getting some Epic Destiny experience, so I don't think it's a waste, but I'd certainly feel more motivated to experience the new content (and for premium players buy the new 20+ packs) on each life if I knew that it wasn't just taking a break, but actually working towards something more permanent and accessible. It'd be nice if the benefits were available at level 1 too ideally, they don't need to be super awesome only active at 20+ just because they're earned in epic levels.

I also encourage you to go back and reconsider whether completionist needs to actually eat up a feat slot or not =-p

[NortheOfThelanis]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

The issue with the carrot (assuming you mean, hit 25, tr, and ooh nice I got some epic destiny past life feat), is that now, people who don't like to grind feel compelled to grind again (epic destiny past live feats now?). I believe some are in that boat currently on the TR grind because they feel inadequate grouping with multi-tr's on their first lifers.

I do not envy you and your team. There is such a fine line between angering one side, and angering the other. I am not a good enough strategist to help you with this one, i'm afraid. Personally, speaking only from my own love for the grind, an epic destiny past life feat would be fantastic. It just scares me that the other side who are more casual and don't like the grind will feel even more inadequate as the multi epic tr's then wave around their even larger epeens.

[LeLoric]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

Possibly but the fact is still that once someone has tr'd to lev 25 the cost of tr'ing has increased dramatically, to the point that for many it may not be worth it anymore.

From turbines point of view this means less sales of true hearts of woods, xp pots, and the various other money makers that are direct results of tr'ing.

From a players point of view it's similar to the tome dilemma from tr'ing. You hit level 20 and either you tr again right away so that you arent relevelling 21-25 too many times or you go ahead and level to 25 with the notion that if you tr again you are losing your *tome* which is levels 21-25.

[Dagolar]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

As was noted before, the grind from TRing is typical, and having 21-25 be optional AND static on xp is generous enough, especially with how Destinies remain through TRs.

With that said, a capstone is always welcome to a gamer's mind.
However, making a suitable one for 25- especially considering we still have a potential 5 more future epic levels to go before we hit deific, non-playable levels (regardless of how likely this scenario is)- and in addition to the potency of destinies, the capstone'd have to be well balanced.
Then again, the epic levels are all based around destinies, correct?
Why not just give some kind of specific destiny ability/slotting at 25, or some unique variances to certain destiny abilities, or somesuch, to keep the flavor.

Given that the three possible combinations of Twists leaves 1-2 points unused, you could simply go with an extra two fate points; Though that seems like it'd be awkward for TRs, as they temporarily lose them until 25.

Something more unique'd be both more interesting and less awkward

[die]

dont be sad, i do appreciate the hard work and long days and Weekends. Just thought when i heard 3 Large expansions there would be more quest's.. bah i love you.. smile and dont be sad i know in august will get more.

[Lady_Josslyn]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

I think that is exactly what they are asking for Tolero (though I could be wrong).
I personally don't feel there is a need for a "carrot" so to speak at level 25 but it would appear that several people think that there should be one after TRing.

[dragonofsteel2]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

If place carrot at the end of 25 then I might want to grind it again. Though this opens up new can of worms with people already competionist, do we have to grind 1-20 again for this carrot? Or we going have option to just take use back to 20again?

[danlan]

Pardon the crappy formatting:

At each epic level you gain the following bonuses:

LeveL       HP        Saves       BAB          Feats      Ability Increases
21         +10          -          +1          Feat	
22         +10         +1          -		
23         +10          -          +1		
24         +10         +1          -           Feat       Ability Increase
25         +10          -          +1

Characters that are level 21 or higher may select Epic or Heroic feats as their level 21 and 24 feat selections.

Do we get caster level increase as well?????????

[NytCrawlr]

I understand what you guys are asking for, and it is a valid concern for a portion of the player base. Just to put it into perspective though, you are asking to get +50hp, +3 BAB, +2 saves, 2 epic feats, and 1 stat point on top of whatever your character would get normally for hitting 20 on a TR if you already did the 21-25 run on a previous life. That is what you are asking for, and I personally don't have any issue with it.

Except that it is a never ending want, what with the game constantly progressing, this argument will only crop up again when the level cap is raised to 30, then to 35, and so on.

Now if there is going to be an epic equivalent to a past life/capstone in the works, then that is probably a good idea and something I can get behind, but I am not for people getting free levels just because they want to TR after they play a little end game.

[Cetus]

Gotcha... so like a sense that the carrot isn't at the end anymore where as before at the end you got the feat?

Alright so let me ask it this way (and don't take this to mean that there are any plans or anything around this).... what would happen if there was a carrot at 25? Does that help or hurt? Obviously we don't wanna take the one at 20 away.

Rather, earning a carrot each time you got the xp necessary to get to level 25, or etch the epic XP in stone. This way, we don't feel terrible about wanting to get a dumb little past life.

And, as a side note, I'm starting to regret ever making a completionist. Every time a tr related issue arises, I feel like I'm getting shafted because I happen to have found some benefit at some point in getting that stupid feat.

[Dagolar]

Possibly but the fact is still that once someone has tr'd to lev 25 the cost of tr'ing has increased dramatically, to the point that for many it may not be worth it anymore.

From turbines point of view this means less sales of true hearts of woods, xp pots, and the various other money makers that are direct results of tr'ing.

From a players point of view it's similar to the tome dilemma from tr'ing. You hit level 20 and either you tr again right away so that you arent relevelling 21-25 too many times or you go ahead and level to 25 with the notion that if you tr again you are losing your *tome* which is levels 21-25.

I want to point out something:
You're either considering 21-25 as not getting anything useful, meaning there's no point in worrying about regrinding them anyway..
or you're accepting that you're re-unlocking destinies among those levels (since they tier 1-5 and likely associate to level accordingly (especially as devs have mentioned level requirements)) same as you would on any TR class levels.

So the tome comparison, while clever, isn't quite suitable.
You're not losing or gaining anything more than you would with normal class levels, the variance in inherent nature aside.

[Vesuvium]

Do we get caster level increase as well?????????

Epic Destinies will give caster levels and spellpoints.

[DemonMage]

dont be sad, i do appreciate the hard work and long days and Weekends. Just thought when i heard 3 Large expansions there would be more quest's.. bah i love you.. smile and dont be sad i know in august will get more.

That's not being sad, that's confusion, because you're wrong. There's a decent bit more than five quests coming.