Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Deadz]

That is exactly what the shroud grind is about. I have run the shroud on multiple toons for the sole purpose of gathering enough ingredients for one complete shroud item for another character.

not 100%.. it's a way to SPEED up shroud grinding.. but can be done on one character.I do understand what your getting at, it's just the

YOu HAVE to play A to start B on an equal footing of most people's new toons..

Almost all the vets have 32pts unlocked.. for me it's basically been 1 1/2 months of playing a character to get to the character i want to play, to enjoy all the experimentation with building, instead i say, "well i better play that cleric to scratch toward the 1750 .. "

Again, it's just a feeling i don't like, i know turns off some new players, and has no positive.. none, so what's the point.. 1750 you get your +2 tome, which is way more of an incentive.. i personally spend my time looking more for 0 xp favor runs then anything else, not that much fun imo.. a very bad game mechanic in my opinion.. <--opinion.. PLEASE notice the word opinion..

[shores11]

It's worth noting that "gimped" is an opinion, not a black-and-white state of being.

Meaning, while you feel that 28-pt builds are not gimped, someone else does... and you're both correct.

The problem is, each person defines "gimped" differently. For some, the difference between gimped and uber is in the single percentage points, whereas for others, it may actually be impossible to create a gimped character (in their opinion).

What we can agree upon is that those four points will make a character more powerful/effective. There's no arguing this, but I'm willing to if you want: point me to any 28-point build and I will show you at minimum two ways it could be improved by adding four build points.

I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.

If the additional 4 points gets me an extra 30 points of spell points this is good but not game changing or negative in any way. I also submit that the small difference is not so overpowering to justify the complaints about the system but yet just enough to set as a goal for gaining 1750 favor.

[Deadz]

I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.

If the additional 4 points gets me an extra 30 points of spell points this is good but not game changing or negative in any way. --I also submit that the small difference is not so overpowering to justify the complaints about the system but yet just enough to set as a goal for gaining 1750 favor.--

I actually agree with everything except the area i put some lines around..

I will say again my only problem is in my opinion it's something that makes new players think "oh i'm less powerful at start then everyone" then something that makes them think "oh that's a cool goal to reach for" but in my opinion gameplay wise it really doesn't make much of a difference, so what have a negative at all?

something like +1 to two stats at 1750 favor for each character would make more sense in my opinion, something that doesn't start off making a player feel this way.

IF it isn't going to change, which honestly i don't think it will ever change, that's fine.. the point of this thread is to share my opinion from the perspective of a very casual player who is a DDO addict.. if only i got favor for grinding the forums, we wouldn't be having this conversation

[DSC]

I will say again my only problem is in my opinion it's something that makes new players think "oh i'm less powerful at start then everyone" then something that makes them think "oh that's a cool goal to reach for" but in my opinion gameplay wise it really doesn't make much of a difference, so what have a negative at all?

Fully agree. I think the oldtimers are actually correct when they say "32 pt. builds don't make much of a difference"... but that isn't actually a logical argument for keeping it the way it is.

If the only people who feel it matters are new players, that indeed suggests that it might be better to give it to the new players rather than hold it out as a "reward" for people who, once they have it, won't think it's actually a big deal.

[Strakeln]

I could not disagree more there is an argument here. I submit that the additional 4 points is more of a state of mind effect than actual build effect. Doing a little more damage here or there or getting a few more spell points here or there really does not change the play of the game that much.

Then I once again challenge you to point me to specific 28-pt builds, I will show you how they can be improved. What you point out (extra damage, more SP) is only part of the equation, and depending on the build, typically a small part.

Edit: I'd like to add that it's enjoyable that we can converse about this in a polite manner (being serious)

[Freeman]

Under the current system, new players don't get access to 32pt characters until they unlock 1750 favor. Some may feel they are disadvantaged because of this and leave the game, while others won't care. However, if they were to remove the need to unlock 32pt builds, then any player that had 28pt characters would effectively be punished for being a long-time subscriber. If they allow 28pt chars to be converted, then it might be worth removing the 32pt build restriction. Until they do that, it needs to remain something that should be unlocked to be fair to current players. Now, I have no issue with changing the actual requirements as others have suggested, to make the total favor rewards less daunting, by adding incremental rewards between 400 and 1750.

[Strakeln]

Fully agree. I think the oldtimers are actually correct when they say "32 pt. builds don't make much of a difference"...

I've thought about it a bit, and come to this conclusion (which is an opinion):

People that say "32-point builds don't make much of a difference" are actually saying "I can play a 28-point build in a very effective manner". I say this because in my opinion, they do make a huge difference, to the point that many common builds we see today simply wouldn't be viable if all builds were 28 point (the ranger/pally/monk stretch comes to mind, heh).

[Strakeln]

Under the current system, new players don't get access to 32pt characters until they unlock 1750 favor. Some may feel they are disadvantaged because of this and leave the game, while others won't care. However, if they were to remove the need to unlock 32pt builds, then any player that had 28pt characters would effectively be punished for being a long-time subscriber. If they allow 28pt chars to be converted, then it might be worth removing the 32pt build restriction. Until they do that, it needs to remain something that should be unlocked to be fair to current players. Now, I have no issue with changing the actual requirements as others have suggested, to make the total favor rewards less daunting, by adding incremental rewards between 400 and 1750.

****, good point, I'd be a little irked if I had a grandfathered 28-point build, lol.

Full respec, please!

[Aganazer]

****, good point, I'd be a little irked if I had a grandfathered 28-point build, lol.

Full respec, please!

It seems only fair that they would allow a one time ability respec of all existing 28pt characters. I don't think we would hear as many complaints about dropping this old mechanic once people make their visit to Fred to get their one free ability respec.

But the truth is that adding the respec makes it more than a trivial change.

As an alternative, allow each character to respec their abilities to 32pt once they reach 1750 favor. 1750 needs to be reached by each character before a 32pt respec is given. It would kill two birds with one stone by letting old characters get 32pts, new players don't feel gimped any more than anyone else, and there is no power inflation (there is even a little deflation).

Better yet, allow your first 1750 to unlock open elite mode so that your new twinked out characters can bypass the trivial normal difficulty and it makes the second trip to 1750 much easier.

[Strakeln]

As an alternative, allow each character to respec their abilities to 32pt once they reach 1750 favor. 1750 needs to be reached by each character before a 32pt respec is given. It would kill two birds with one stone by letting old characters get 32pts, new players don't feel gimped any more than anyone else, and there is no power inflation (there is even a little deflation).

While I'd prefer to just open up 32-pt builds to all, this seems to be the most fair solution that addresses the most concerns (not just mine).

I'll tell Turbine to get right on it.

[HumanJHawkins]

Many people claim that the difference is trivial and not important, therefore 32 point builds should remain restricted as is. However, all you have to do to PROVE that this is a bigger deal those people claim, is to threaten to take it away from them. Suddenly they panic, get angry, and demonstrate by their actions that it is a very big deal to them.

There are many arguments on both sides of this. Who wins depends on your perspective. If you are:

A Judge (with all player interest in mind): You notice that the arguments for making 32 points easier relate to making the game more fun for new players. Whereas the arguments against either dismiss the feelings of new and casual players, or focus on protecting a perception of superiority by people who have already done the grind.

The verdict: Making the game more fun is more important than propping up some player's illusion of superiority. Open 32 point builds to all, or make them a lot easier to achieve.

A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.

The verdict: Hell no. Keep the system as is, or make it even harder.

Turbine (with $$$ in mind): I hope turbine will see how damaging this is to the game, and how contrary it is to everything else they do to try to be inclusive and fair.

The verdict: Replace the account wide benefit from 1750 favor with a good reward that is limited to the character that achieved it. This will remove the issue, and will maintain or perhaps even expand the need for players to keep playing, as people will now have to get favor on EVERY character that they want the reward on.

[krud]

This idea doesn't make any sense. So your saying instead of having one character do enough quests to get to 1750 favor allow several characters build their favor that you have created. So you would have your character A (as an example) run waterworks and your character B run waterworks and have the favor add up for both? You would do this instead of having your character A run waterworks on normal and hard? Really, what is the difference?

UGGGHHH! No NO No! This same erroneous thought pervades every single post about the total sever favor suggestion. I brought up the idea of total server favor (and did so long before in previous threads). It goes as follows: You get total server favor, BUT no overlapping favor. (i.e. the same quest counts only once, even if you have run it on mulitple characters). It works the same as it does with your individual characters. You don't get more favor each time you run WW elite on the same toon, do you? The same applies when you total server favor across multiple toons. One of your characters does WW on elite, you'll get credit for WW elite on your total server favor. If another character runs ww elite, you get no further bonus. Individual characters can still grind to 1750 for a tome, but the 1750 for 32pts comes from all your characters on the server.

This way if you get a character to cap and are still short of 1750, you can run one of your lowbies thru instead of going back and doing the favor grind. Also if lfms favor one character for one quest, you get to knock out the favor without having to gather up a group for your other charcacter. You can play all your characters as you please without having to focus on just one to get the favor. To some it's not a big deal to grind one toon. To others it is.

[shores11]

I suppose because you wrote this theory then it is law. I on the other hand think that you are only trying to push your agenda and wrap it up in speak that makes folks think you know what your talking about.

Many people claim that the difference is trivial and not important, therefore 32 point builds should remain restricted as is. However, all you have to do to PROVE that this is a bigger deal those people claim, is to threaten to take it away from them. Suddenly they panic, get angry, and demonstrate by their actions that it is a very big deal to them.

Disagreement: By disagreeing their is no panic, anger or anything of that sort. But there are those (you included) that think to disagree with their point of view is close minded and restrictive.
There are many arguments on both sides of this. Who wins depends on your perspective. If you are:

A Judge (with all player interest in mind): You notice that the arguments for making 32 points easier relate to making the game more fun for new players. Whereas the arguments against either dismiss the feelings of new and casual players, or focus on protecting a perception of superiority by people who have already done the grind.

The verdict: Making the game more fun is more important than propping up some player's illusion of superiority. Open 32 point builds to all, or make them a lot easier to achieve.

The appeal: By implementing a favor system that gives a player a goal you are in fact creating a system that is fun and enjoyable. I can say that for myself and just about every player I have played with over the last 3 years enjoys the favor trek to achieve 400 for drow and 1750 for a +2 tome and unlocking the 32 favor build. They also (including myself) enjoy the trek to unlock house favor and the various things involved with that.

A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.

The verdict: Hell no. Keep the system as is, or make it even harder.

The appeal: I agree to a certain extent a power gamer wants to be superior and is usually a very selfish player. However that is individually driven by certain players. Just because a power gamer (and I do not submit that they agree with favor run for 32 point builds) agrees on a topic that your against does not mean it is a power gamer issue. I think quit the opposite in fact a power gamer for the most part wants everything very fast and does not like the trek to achieve and unlock favor. I would submit that the push to have 32 point builds from the start is being driven by power gamers.

Turbine (with $$$ in mind): I hope turbine will see how damaging this is to the game, and how contrary it is to everything else they do to try to be inclusive and fair.

The verdict: Replace the account wide benefit from 1750 favor with a good reward that is limited to the character that achieved it. This will remove the issue, and will maintain or perhaps even expand the need for players to keep playing, as people will now have to get favor on EVERY character that they want the reward on.

The appeal: I am sure Turbine is a lot smarter than you give them credit for and knows full well that this is a huge benefit to the game. The subscriptions to DDO in fact have been on the rise of late as I have personally quested with and so has fellow guild members new players who enjoy the game very much.

[Jesen]

Give everyone 32 point builds and no reason to run favor(+2 tomes are a dime a dozen now)

Result - People only start groups, run quests based on the time/xp reward. Even less content is run up to 16 and forum posts with the title "OMG lack of content" and "DOOOOOOM" multiply tenfold.

We all know there is certain quests that get milked for xp/time already, but occasionally people will run other quests for favor. Don't take that away from the game.

Also if you really are that casual of a gamer perhaps you chose the wrong type of game to play? Grab Neverwinter nights and go build crazy if thats what you feel your missing out on.

You will ALWAYS feel like your missing out on something in a MMORPG(Not just DDO) because their will always be power gamers with more than you.

[HumanJHawkins]

I suppose because you wrote this theory then it is law. I on the other hand think that you are only trying to push your agenda and wrap it up in speak that makes folks think you know what your talking about.

[/color]

You presume too much. I was not speaking generally about people panicking. I was speaking specifically about times when this has come up before. People would argue (as some are here) that the difference between 28 and 32 points is meaningless. But upon suggesting that if it was meaningless, all builds should be reverted to 28 points, those same exact people literally freaked out in fear.

Or if you point out that it would make a LOT more sense to have everyone's first character be 32 points to help them get started, but subsequent characters should be 28 points as they no longer need the boost and will better know how to build a character, again people freak.

The fact is that 32 points is a real and substantial benefit, equivalent to a +4 tome in an off stat, or a +2 tome in a main stat. Yes, this is clearly outweighed by skill, equipment, etc. But the "It's meaningless" argument is a farce.

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me, but I'm going to call them like I see them.

Take the "I had to do it, so you have to also" argument that entered this thread fairly late... This is hazing pure and simple. People in favor of hazing are entitled to their opinion. But most reasonable people do not see "They made me run across campus naked except for peanut butter on my genitals, so it is OK for me to make the new guy do that too." as a valid argument.

Most reasonable people would say, I'm sorry you had to endure that, but it was a bad thing so we are going to end it.

Decisions about what to change or not change need to be made on the basis of what makes the game better. And for the game to have a chance of improving, consideration about how older players might be jealous because they had to endure more PITA, must be excluded from the decision making process. PITA is bad, and the desire to make everyone suffer equally is not a good reason to continue it.

You mention how much you enjoyed the pursuit of 1750. I'm not at all against having goals like that. I am only against having a reward that divides the player base into 2 classes. The simple fact that we can discuss 28 vs. 32 point builds illustrates that there are two classes.

Something like a +1 tome that would stack with other regular tomes would be a fair 1750 reward. Or just a +2 or +3 tome. There would still be haves and have-nots. But there wouldn't be a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to all of one person's toons, in contrast to another.

[Freeman]

But there wouldn't be a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to all of one person's toons, in contrast to another.

Yes, actually, there would be. The only difference is that it would be in the other direction. Anyone, such as myself, that still has multiple 28pt build characters that were created long before favor, 32pt builds, or even drow were in the game, would have a permanent and irreversible weakness applied to those characters.

No matter which way the system works, either in the current fashion or by allowing anyone to create 32pt characters, there is still going to be a difference between old and new players. And those extra four build points, while they can be nice, don't have much effect on a character at low levels. The gear you can afford to buy with a higher level character will have the largest, most visible impact on a character, not the starting stats.

[Deadz]

You will ALWAYS feel like your missing out on something in a MMORPG(Not just DDO) because their will always be power gamers with more than you.

nah been playing mmo's since 98 it's not the fact that content isn't obtainable, infact out of all mmo's i've played, it's the MOST obtainable in ddo.. it's actually a very casual game, it's just the time sink to start your first character with the potential to be capped or geared is the issue.. i think you misunderstand

[Zenako]

I think some of you are discounting the real value of essentially requiring a new player to experience a good deal of the game to gain that perk.

32 vs 28 is a perk. For pure classes it is insignificant. For some advanced MC toons it can be important to hitting certain benchmarks (some of them self imposed). For some players, they need to have 95% success rates on stuff or they feel gimped, while a more objective view could conclude that 85% would do just fine.

The bonus tome (which does only go to each character that hits the benchmark) is a nice perk. It used to be a huge perk, but as has been pointed out, +2 tomes are no longer anywhere near as scarce as they once were, but still seldom seen by the infrequent player.

If there were no reward like the 32 point perk, what incentive would there be to experience much of the game beyond those core 20 power leveling quests so many are fond of. What would keep all those players from "burning out" on those quests and whining about lack of content. Kind of a hallow whine if you only run a small subset of quests and ignore the rest.

Turbine has already changed the perks to be even fewer than in the past, where you got bonus character slots too. Now everyone starts with the same, and everyone has the same. From my perspective and experience with players, I see the range of favor required to get that perk to be a net positive and not a negative.

[branmakmuffin]

A Powergamer (With his need to be more uber than everyone else): Reads and disregards all arguments, as they are irrelevant. He doesn't care why people want to change this. He only cares that it remain difficult for others to compete with him so he can maintain his sense of superiority. So he'll try to distract from the real issues by claiming they want an "easy button". Or, he'll focus on tiny parts of the issue that he can win, like by claiming that the difference is not very big. And he'll ignore the fact that this is much more about a feeling of exclusion than actual game mechanics.

Actually, it's the power gamers who want the "easy button."

Give everyone 32 point builds and no reason to run favor(+2 tomes are a dime a dozen now)

Then send me my dozen (your choice). And just to show how nice I am, I'll send you two dimes.

[Uska]

Typically a stance taken when someone has no real argument to present.

Think about that.

No I think 32pt are a reward anyone who thinks otherwise is a whiner and I would rather see them quit then hear them whine think about that.