Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[DNDJESS]

So it is a gamble when we join a group. If that group is not honest about their intentions up front and takes actions that I can prevent or alter I then need to drop that group despite whatever investment in resources that I might have spent on thqat group and then I am to leave myself susceptible to harassment by making it obvious that I have reported them.

Isn't it a bigger gamble to just join them in the exploitation of the quest and risk punishment from the GM? Which is worse - losing out of a little exp/treasure, or being suspended/banned? Personally I'd rather not take my chances, because exp comes fast and treasure is easy to come by.

[Garth_of_Sarlona]

It's quite simple, and I've been doing it whenever I pug the Shroud.

When I join - or before I join, I send a tell to the party leader saying something like 'Can I ask how you are planning to do part 5?' and if there is any doubt in my mind that the party is planning to exploit then I just don't join. 'doubt' can include statements such as 'we'll decide later' - I like to know before I go into part 1.

In the rare case that the leader decides (and announces in party chat) that no exploitation is going to happening, but someone in the party choses to ignore that request and cause a bug to happen in the quest, I just report them, but in that case it's not the leader at fault, but the person performing the exploit. I leave it to the GMs to work out who it was. And I drop group (which often unbugs Harry anyway).

Garth

[Serpent]

I'd really like a response to Eudimio's post. I see that it was removed even though it I thought it did not violate the original purposes of this thread.

Is the movement of certain mobs in certain quests after they are gone, a sploit or intentional?

[Angelus_dead]

Isn't it a bigger gamble to just join them in the exploitation of the quest and risk punishment from the GM? Which is worse - losing out of a little exp/treasure, or being suspended/banned?

No, it is not a bigger gamble. It is unlikely any DDO player has ever been punished for that particular exploit.

It is even more unlikely that a GM would decide to be so unfair as to punish someone who did not actually cheat, but was simply in the same party as someone else and had no mechanism to prevent it.

[mehlinda]

Today's patch only fix lag, since it was very troublesome. However, some exploits have been addressed in previous hotfix.

If you think the Shroud exploits were fixxed it's not even remotely close. If there was a clear policy, there would be no use for people to have it in their LFM to prevent it. Also ,there are lots of LFM's which say no exploiting but they do it anyway, which is either them saying it's not an exploit till someone says it is or they are just trying to aggravate those who wish to do quests without it and end up with a dilemma later.

[Cyr]

KK,

See my post in the Sarlona Forums on the excedingly large number of players who only run a certain quest with exploiting. Your policy of more openness in the forums is contradicted completly by saying that you should not advertise "Non bug" runs. It is preposterous and laughable to most of the community to think that people are not aware of the main buggy quest in the game and exactly how to do it. Still for those rare few who do not know how to a particular bug works I understand this, but to say that advertising a "non bug" run is not tolerated...wow. Here we are the rare (yep rare) people who want to do this quest right and instead of getting support we are told not to discuss it and drop if some random player (uh huh you know it only takes one sometimes) decides they want to exploit. Hmm, and this is after we have spent an hour of our time. And you also know perfectly well that we can not boot people mid quest even if they intentionally exploit. Is the prefered method then to invite people normally and then say we are doing it without bugging...and how is this any different for the purposes of people knowing that a certain quest is exploitable?

As for the "Hero Method" come on...let's not waste time here. We know what the real issue is here people and don't try and pretend for Turbine's reps that you do not so they think the issue is any less important then it is.

As for reporting people...if I did that most of the server would be banned.

Okay seriously, see Solmage's post for pro's cons of the "no bug" in the lfm policy which I thought was very well thought out and reasoned.

LOL, and I just noticed that I have been following the old guidelines for this and trying to skirt around discussing the buggy quest. Yes, the shroud is broken...painfully broken dev's...as I have posted in a round about way before the amount of groups running this quest without bugging it is WAY below the number running it with bugging it...at least on my home server of Sarlona (I can not speak for other servers). Fixing this should be a top priority and making sure the same nonsense does not show up in the new raids should be also. The real problem here is not that you made a quest that some obscure mechanic could be used to exploit it instead it is that by mistake people easily would have discovered it without looking for it.

[Pyromaniac]

Although this is a step in the right direction, I would still like a perfectly clear and official list of exactly what is an exploit.

It is still too vague to me, and there is a wide range of opinion. Fighting toe to toe with every single mob makes the combat system extremely boring - is that the only option to be non-exploiting?

-Is using terrain to your advantage exploiting?
-Is the 'range bounce' tactic used in multiple places an exploit? If not - how does it differ from other methods of impacting AI to someone's advantage?
-Is the 'hero method' tactic an exploit?
-Is 'kiting' an exploit?
-Is 'wall of fire' an exploit?
-Are 'solvers' an exploit?

I've seen all of these things been called exploits - and want official opinions rather than opinions from the board. My moral compass is totally different than some posters, and know what is one player's exploit is not an exploit in other players opinions.

Otherwise, I feel like this comes across as charge down the middle, no attempt at strategy or tactics or you'll be reported and punished. And I assume that's not the intent.

[mehlinda]

This forum is a great idea IMO. I like a lot of what I have seen and I hope for improvement in other places. Not getting specific about an exploit I can understand. KK can get plenty of input from us on how it's done and then he can say " Doing x to cause x is against the rules and will result in x action taken by Turbine as a result". Turbine is not protecting anyone by having this info in the open. It is easily available in the most popular quest in the game in 90%+ of the runs on my server so them reading about it on the forums is not going to help them learn about how to do it better than actually participating 24/7.

There is a lot of discussion about another part of the Shroud and whether the general way people do that is or isn't an exploit and I'd like to hear some input on that. I am not sure that mini-bosses binding in certain areas or any area is not intended. I think it's possible that our task was to discover who stays where but in case that's not the case, I have been pulling all of them to one area simultaneously and doing them all at once just to be sure.

I have been guilty of making LFM's that say no bugging in my Shroud runs. I have had very few problems as a result. Of the two I have had, one led to me getting two infraction points for my participation in a thread with the person who broke my rule. I fully expected even harsher action then I got for my part in the discussion and I even began to doubt whether or not Turbine considered what happened an exploit since both the OP and myself and others repeatedly talked about the particular exploit and my infraction poits were actually given for calling him the Op a liar. This bothered me until now. The second incident involved someone asking if we would be employing "the feature" in part 5 and going ahead and making it happen anyway after he was told no. He then, in a pug with several IFV members, did the thing that causes the thing in part 5 while in the pre-instance and asked if that was an exploit just to fuel fires further. This lead to me sending a note to his guild leader to try to stop any bad blood between our guilds. None of this would be necessary if the policy was previously where it appears to be heading now. I didn't report #2 at any point even though his actions might have merited it. I did report the first person and told him I would be as soon as he did it which I think lead to the post I recieved my infraction points for. He admitted in his post to having upwards of 50 completions and was proud that maybe only 20 of them were done using "the feature". Which brings me to my next point...

A guildy of mine was invited to a group last night by someone who is known to employ this tactic. For the most part, my guild no longer runs with his. They did their thing in act 5 and as soon as the goal was accomplished all the talk was centered on making fun of those who either don't do it that way or have a problem with it. This is sad to me as someone who loves tha game because for me it's not really about whether people are breaking the rules. I am no saint. For me is simply that it would ruin the game for me and also I hate hypocrites. I say hypocrites because many of these people who use this tactic are some of the top players on my server and it's simply not needed. These same people will argue with you all day that it's not an exploit but when I invite them to have KK come along on their raid and to instruct him as to how to perform their tactic I get no takers. To me a man should be able to do as he claims to believe " always". And lastly it's not really fair to legit players that these people get to complete this challenging quest ( for most) essentially for free and benefit greatly from the vast rewards it offers when they have not earned it. It gives them a big edge over the game and rest of the players.

Rant over

[ChildrenofBodom]

Um...If someone reports someone else for exploiting, you guys better find proof they are before doing anything about it. I'm going to be ****ed when one of the people I am not in good terms with decides to be an ass and report me for something I didn't do. This mistake has been made before, even towards me.

[Kistilan]

Although this is a step in the right direction, I would still like a perfectly clear and official list of exactly what is an exploit.

It is still too vague to me, and there is a wide range of opinion. Fighting toe to toe with every single mob makes the combat system extremely boring - is that the only option to be non-exploiting?

-Is using terrain to your advantage exploiting?
-Is the 'range bounce' tactic used in multiple places an exploit? If not - how does it differ from other methods of impacting AI to someone's advantage?
-Is the 'hero method' tactic an exploit?
-Is 'kiting' an exploit?
-Is 'wall of fire' an exploit?
-Are 'solvers' an exploit?

I've seen all of these things been called exploits - and want official opinions rather than opinions from the board. My moral compass is totally different than some posters, and know what is one player's exploit is not an exploit in other players opinions.

Otherwise, I feel like this comes across as charge down the middle, no attempt at strategy or tactics or you'll be reported and punished. And I assume that's not the intent.

Good Stuff up there. I want the official answer on things like The Hero Method. I appreciate the input by those that were constructive to the subject, but this is a Question and Answer forum for player to KK and KK to PM or KK to Player Base. The opinions have been stated hundreds of times in other threads. Let's let Turbine officially answer some of these questions, eh?

[Eudimio]

I'd really like a response to Eudimio's post. I see that it was removed even though it I thought it did not violate the original purposes of this thread.

Is the movement of certain mobs in certain quests after they are gone, a sploit or intentional?

Slowbie.

KK wanted to take that discussion offline. Although I would have liked for him to leave my intro in there. You can probably recreate it, you know the particulars by heart.

[BigNastyMP]

Your policy of more openness in the forums is contradicted completly by saying that you should not advertise "Non bug" runs. It is preposterous and laughable to most of the community to think that people are not aware of the main buggy quest in the game and exactly how to do it.

Cyr, you know I have your back when it comes to the Shroud but I would ask that you drop this point. I cannot say that I know most of the players on the server, I cannot say that I know most of the players know about the shroud fun-times. Turbine's official position being that they want to keep this on the down low is their position, we should respect that by not putting "no exploits" in the LFM. Their official view is honorable even though it's unrealistic, naiive and drives us crazy. It is possible to filter out those who will use these tactics without using the LFM.

Splitting hairs here, I know. But I agree with your main points so much that I would hate to see your arguements derailed over this minor detail.

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Let me clarify. When I said you should leave a group or otherwise when you find they are planning to use exploits, you should do so before you actually start the quest, IN PRIVATE. That is the key here. I realize this is not as convenient, and I also fully realize that people already know exploits exist. I think you could avoid offending with questions by having the leader make it clear in the beginning of the party: "We're playing clean, no harm no foul if you leave now." No questions required.

You're trying to follow the rules that EVERYONE is expected to follow. Don't let someone bully you into breaking them.

Regarding the general feelings about leaving/kicking groups: It's simple. You're protecting yourselves, and if you all take up this practice, those who expect fair players to play along will think start thinking twice about expecting such behavior. We can't make you practice this method, nor expect everyone to agree, but this is the only way to assure 100% you'll keep your game account out of trouble.

One more thing before I move on to your questions:
Lets remember that this thread is not for debating whether things are exploits or not. Lets keep that separate and civil and GENERALIZED.

Is it now OK to talk about exploits you've fixed, ie. Remember 10min Tempest Spine runs when XXXX worked?

No discussion of details is allowed, past or present please and thanks!

What's your opinion about a thing called The Hero Method? Or do you need details? It has been a long since heated debate, but I have viewed it only as people considering it a cheesy tactic.

I'm fairly certain I know of what the hero method is, but please IM details to me. I will confirm tomorrow in the public forum whether or not it is considered an offense.

I'd like to ask you to reconsider the posting on the LFM thing.

We've considered it long and hard. We've had multiple meetings about it, and everyone is agreed that this is not acceptable. We'll definately take your feedback into consideration, but for now, these are the rules.

The discussion about weapons that dont belong to you on the AH went right over my head and I was a bit upset thinking I could go buy something that looks cool and I can afford and get banned for it and never know why.

Buying it, in most circumstances, would not be a problem. Selling it usually is.

How am I supposed to know if you meant the "Tactic" to be there or not...?? or if you just screwed something up again?

Send me a PM. Thats why we opened this door

Can we post on our Who panel comments that we aren't exploiters?

I will consult with the team on this and get back to you. If I havent addressed this question within the next 24 hours, please PM me.

The truth is, this puts everyone in a tough spot. The only true way to solve the problem is to fix the quest...ASAP.

Yep, we understand it's sometimes tough to be the good guy. And we always fix exploits as soon as we can, which of course, is never fast enough.

I'd really like a response to Eudimio's post.

The post contained slightly too much detail, but we're talking in PM. When I have more info, I will post it.

Although this is a step in the right direction, I would still like a perfectly clear and official list of exactly what is an exploit.

Thats what I'm hoping to get out of this.

More tomorrow. Tired Kobold.

[Eudimio]

Oh, I do have another question.

How do you guys have time to look at the exploits when I'm submitting 5 tickets an hour for plat seller spamming?

[Vyctor]

What are we to do if a rogue (not in class, but in the non-conforming sense of the word) creates a bug in mid quest, after the leader having made clear that no bugs would be used? Are we to recall and have wasted all the resources getting to that point, including time which is a non-renewable resource, especially for the casual gamer?

[Nevthial]

Thanks Kobold ! Get some sleep ! I'm sure there will be a gazillion questions waiting for you!

[Dark_Helmet]

Yark! So, hello again! It is good be back!
In future, GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. Me will be much happy to help when it comes to exploit question.

Yay!

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

Can you reconsider this? I mean pretty much any quest can have theoretical expoits - the problem is that some people don't realize the difference between a tactict and an exploit.

Here is an example that has been discussed by DEVS so I don't think it is taboo:
In one of the missions there is a way to jump up and sneak to get the switches and this bypasses monsters. Some people considered it an exploit until a DEV said it was intended that way.
In a different quest, the ability to jump and bypass a fight was considered an exploit and it was fixed. We did not know it was an exploit until a DEV confirmed it.

To go back to the LFM, they could post "No bypassing monsters" but if we don't know if that is an exploit or not how can we truely build the party we want to run? The next best thing is to just post "No Cheese", you can send a tell to the Leader and ask what they are talking about and they can respond "No bypassing monsters". To me, that is just like saying "zerg run", "Self heal only", "no Charming Monsters", "no Dancing balls", "no recalling for mana", "Permadeath run", etc.

Until we KNOW it is an exploit, it could just be a leader not wanting to do a certain tactic.

Also, me want to warn those who think it ok to be exploit everything. As part of new policy, if you caught doing something we say not okay, we be more strict when looking for you! We ban from game for taking bad advantage! We also bring out the torture device and branding irons and....

See above example - if we don't know something is bad, how come we get punished? I agree that there are some really bad exploits that are obvious, but what about tactics - using your build's ability that is fine here, but not there?

[Dark_Helmet]

The discussion about weapons that dont belong to you on the AH went right over my head and I was a bit upset thinking I could go buy something that looks cool and I can afford and get banned for it and never know why.

Buying it, in most circumstances, would not be a problem. Selling it usually is.

Most of the time you can tell if an item doesn't belong. When you examine it, the description will say something like "Drops upon exit".

But that is like real life: Caveat Emptor "Let the Buyer Beware"...

[Big_Russ]

Oh, I do have another question.

How do you guys have time to look at the exploits when I'm submitting 5 tickets an hour for plat seller spamming?

[Yvonne_Blacksword]

Although this is a step in the right direction, I would still like a perfectly clear and official list of exactly what is an exploit.

It is still too vague to me, and there is a wide range of opinion. Fighting toe to toe with every single mob makes the combat system extremely boring - is that the only option to be non-exploiting?

-Is using terrain to your advantage exploiting?
-Is the 'range bounce' tactic used in multiple places an exploit? If not - how does it differ from other methods of impacting AI to someone's advantage?
-Is the 'hero method' tactic an exploit?
-Is 'kiting' an exploit?
-Is 'wall of fire' an exploit?
-Are 'solvers' an exploit?[edit: reddened...for empasis]

I've seen all of these things been called exploits - and want official opinions rather than opinions from the board. My moral compass is totally different than some posters, and know what is one player's exploit is not an exploit in other players opinions.

Otherwise, I feel like this comes across as charge down the middle, no attempt at strategy or tactics or you'll be reported and punished. And I assume that's not the intent.

Yes please...answers on all of these..
I hate that I feel like a cheat...I sometimes come up with some pretty weird tactics to stay alive as an escape artist...constantly trying to escape death.
Limit trauma.
And still survive.
I solo a lot.
Sometimes, things I learn from this seem to irk people.
Use of terrain, firewalls (one of the few things I can kill a flesh golem with...), some of the more stupid AI running jokes...like what I did in VON 4 last night, make me wonder...Am I a good player, knowledgeable and experienced..
Or have I followed bad practices, my own and those of others and will I need to get one of those special "Taint of Evil" removing items...to cleanse my own soul.