Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[ThrasherGT]

Please do not debate in this thread, as this was what got it shut down last time.

[KoboldKiller]

Ok I am so confused now. You are called KK but I am called KK as well so I'm not sure who all these questions are being addressed to.

[herzkos]

Ok I am so confused now. You are called KK but I am called KK as well so I'm not sure who all these questions are being addressed to.

He was here before ya mate, i think he gets KK . . . your name should have been changed to KK-argonessen or some such

[Anastasios]

Ok I am so confused now. You are called KK but I am called KK as well so I'm not sure who all these questions are being addressed to.

coo cool, but 'weak weak'

[Mindspat]

• Next, there have been questions on whether or not monsters spontaneously "going stupid" is an exploit. If you are specifically causing this to take advantage of it, yes, it is an exploit which can result in loss of game privileges. However, there have been reports where monsters stop responding seemingly on their own. In cases such as this, the best course of action would be to:

[INDENT][LIST][*]File a bug report and/or send for help from a GM.[*]Continue the quest as normal, which may include fighting said monsters.[*]If a GM responds before you finish the quest, simply explain the situation, and go from there.[*]Avoid, if possible, triggering such behavior next time you run the quest. If it happens again, simply start over from step 1.[/LIST
-Kommunity Kobold

I must say KK, you have forgotten something. In order to file an accurate "bug report" a player should list the steps identified that cause the "bug" to be repeated. If a player can repeat a "bug" they should list the steps that causes it to happen. For example:

Bug Description: lose train of thought while performing multiple actions simultaneously.
1. do this: stand on 1 foot, rub stomach and pat head
2. don't do this: do not start hopping while doing Step 1
3. the bug: if you started hoping you will forget if your rubbing your head or patting your stomach and might fall down.
4. rinse & repeat

Remember, LESS is more when filing a bug report. Summarize and keep it simple.

Does this mean people should be purposely trying to repeat bugs? Sure, but only as long as they're not intentionally bypassing or taking advantage of a mechanic that's behaving other then obviously intended. Trying to repeat something like this with a full group should be a no-no.

Also, the first time identifies it, the second time confirms it and this is where it's best to file a bug report or avoid repeating the steps. I doubt anyone's going to get banned for "noticing a bug".

[Catlyn]

Lastly, there has been discussion on what to do if a member of your group intends to exploit the quest you are in, and you are not comfortable with doing so. In this case there are three choices:[/LIST]

• Go along with the behavior that has been published as a ban-able offense, putting your game account at risk.
• Don't participate in the exploit behavior, and quietly submit an in-game help ticket on the players who are taking part. An investigation will be made by the GM's (though the GM's will not be able to discuss the discipline of other players with you), and continue playing the quest without participating in the illegal exploit.
• Leave the group politely, indicating that this is not the way you play the game.

I hope this clears up any confusion that the original discussion may have caused, especially our intentions regarding having a published exploit list.

Thanks for the posting KK. Quick Clarification Please :

I am running a quest and see someone bug out the end boss. I step back, say I am going afk and wait for them to finish. Can I then loot my end chest or is this considered to be taking part of the exploit and is illgotten gains. Do I have to bug report them? If I don't bug report them and I don't leave the quest, am I considered to be exploiting?

Thanks

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Yark! Just a quick reminder that debating policy is not allowed in the thread.

The "short" definition of exploit is: When you try to make a bug happen on purpose to get something out of it.

But that isn't the purpose of our initiating this thread. The purposes is that we're going to tell you what exploits you can get in trouble for, and we're still building that list. After all, being able to "shadow dance" is hardly hurting anything, but by "technical" definition, you're trying to make the bug happen on purpose.

If you feel wrong about something, then don't do it. That's up to you. If you are doing something that turns out to be wrong - the GMs, they not like Beholders coming to cast disintegrate on you if you get in their range. Yark! GMs investigate the situation.

... also, I still wading through your many PMs and questions, I have responses soon for you!

[WeaselKing]

Thanks for the posting KK. Quick Clarification Please :

I am running a quest and see someone bug out the end boss. I step back, say I am going afk and wait for them to finish. Can I then loot my end chest or is this considered to be taking part of the exploit and is illgotten gains. Do I have to bug report them? If I don't bug report them and I don't leave the quest, am I considered to be exploiting?

Thanks

I would think that taking the loot would be bad. I plan to continue to stand there and watch groups exploit and then leave before benefiting at least in the example that is at the forefront in most of our minds ATM. There are a couple of other things, though, that I might have to stop doing if they aren't intentionally coded though.

[query]

I will await "the list" and understand the options three you have posted (but also am wondering about the chest answer if I am shown deliberately NOT participating in said exploit in option 2?)

As for the rest, details will be ironed out.


But it would be nice if we could focus on getting not just "exploits" but overall game bugs fixed ASAP. The getting stuck in certain areas was around for a LONG time before FINALLY being fixed as were SOME ladder bugs.

The way the Devils' AI was handled in that post tent explosion guards' room, try doing more NPC's like that. I bet fewer oopsies would hapen then.

Hopefully, by fixing more and more of the enviroment, this also will help the AI sidestep and terrain or reaction complications.


ANd PLEASE allow GT to work in a public instance and add Merida to a Teleport spell! Is /death an exploit when done in tavern to quickly get to Merida? I honestly do not know, but by fixing the bug of not adding to a Teleport list, that should solve that question right then and there.

See, fixing bugs can fix exploits too!

And no, Monks will have no exploits, the're just that good

[Catlyn]

I would think that taking the loot would be bad. I plan to continue to stand there and watch groups exploit and then leave before benefiting at least in the example that is at the forefront in most of our minds ATM. There are a couple of other things, though, that I might have to stop doing if they aren't intentionally coded though.

I thought this as well, but when you read option 2, it basically says don't take part in the exploit and then carry on the quest as normal. Thus my questions. If you use a bug to render a mob stupid, does the exploit stop when he is dead? Once the exploit is over and we can carry on the quest as normal, does this extend to chests and loot?

I am fine with it either way, just want to know what is expected. I love the statement that doing something to cause monsters to go stupid is an exploit and can live with that (in fact that has been my feelings all along). I just want clarification.

If the ruling is "Watch while someone exploits, report them, then carry on as normal and get your loot, don't report mean don't get your loot" then people will have a clear cut choice of reporting bad behaviour and getting loot vs not reporting but no loot.

[Strakeln]

• Go along with the behavior that has been published as a ban-able offense, putting your game account at risk.

Until you publish these ban-able offenses, are our accounts still at risk for going along with behavior that may be questionable to some?

[Oreg]

Until you publish these ban-able offenses, are our accounts still at risk for going along with behavior that may be questionable to some?

Same question I had. And thanks to KK and Q for stating that you will be publishing said list. Think of all the posts from the last two days that can now drift off into the ether as irrelevant based on this one small sentence.

The purposes is that we're going to tell you what exploits you can get in trouble for, and we're still building that list.

[Aspenor]

Interesting twist of events. I r confuzed about certain sticking points.

Thanks for the update KK.

[mehlinda]

Until you publish these ban-able offenses, are our accounts still at risk for going along with behavior that may be questionable to some?

The only thing in question at this point is when they are going to come out with "the list" .. Everyone knows what's going to be on it...If you want a free pass for the next x amount of days take your chances. If you need to ask if it's good or bad, put yourself in the shoes of a GM and ask yourself what you would do if you witnessed the activity.

[Altarboy]

Interesting twist of events. I r confuzed about certain sticking points.

Thanks for the update KK.

Me Too...But I appreciate the effort..Thanks KK

[Riorik]

Woo-hoo, in before the next lock!

[Strakeln]

The only thing in question at this point is when they are going to come out with "the list" .. Everyone knows what's going to be on it...If you want a free pass for the next x amount of days take your chances. If you need to ask if it's good or bad, put yourself in the shoes of a GM and ask yourself what you would do if you witnessed the activity.

I don't need to ask if it's good or bad. I need to ask if someone else, perhaps that puritan-looking dwarf, thinks it's good or bad. My personal judgement is not a part of the equation.

Don't twist my words into asking for a free pass.

[Wizzly_Bear]

• First and foremost, the entire intention of this policy change was to enable the Turbine community team to establish a list of specific exploits which would be considered an offense. We certainly are going to do so, and I understand that need for such a list. Unfortunately, such a list will take time to build, as I sift through my PM's and get specific information on each exploit. There are many issues within the game, that can be very complicated at times, and before we designate them as a ban-able offense or acceptable tactic, we absolutely must understand every detail of each exploit. If you can be patient, we will start building this list within the next week or so.

awesome. i look forward to not having my enjoyment of the game hampered by endless in game debates about what is and is not an exploit by other players.

• Next, there have been questions on whether or not monsters spontaneously "going stupid" is an exploit. If you are specifically causing this to take advantage of it, yes, it is an exploit which can result in loss of game privileges.

• thank you for the clarification of at least one exploit so far.

• However, there have been reports where monsters stop responding seemingly on their own. In cases such as this, the best course of action would be to:

• File a bug report and/or send for help from a GM.
• Continue the quest as normal, which may include fighting said monsters.
• If a GM responds before you finish the quest, simply explain the situation, and go from there.
• Avoid, if possible, triggering such behavior next time you run the quest. If it happens again, simply start over from step 1.

This will ensure that we're very aware of severe bugs, as well as indicate that you are not intending to exploit, while ensuring that you do not have to start the quest over again.

i do not expect to be required to fill out bug reports to "safely" enjoy playing this game. i do occasionally fill out bug reports, but for the most part i just move on, regardless of whether the bug in question is beneficial or harmful to my character. doing a bug report takes too long and interrupts my enjoyment of the game. further, the handling of bugs is not the responsibility of the player base, rather the onus is on the game's management to deal with these issues. if you cant handle rectifying the number of bugs in game then you need to either (a)stop producing so many bugs, and/or (b)have more/better testers.

• Lastly, there has been discussion on what to do if a member of your group intends to exploit the quest you are in, and you are not comfortable with doing so. In this case there are three choices:

• Go along with the behavior that has been published as a ban-able offense, putting your game account at risk.
• Don't participate in the exploit behavior, and quietly submit an in-game help ticket on the players who are taking part. An investigation will be made by the GM's (though the GM's will not be able to discuss the discipline of other players with you), and continue playing the quest without participating in the illegal exploit.
• Leave the group politely, indicating that this is not the way you play the game.

• i never go along with a behavior if i know or suspect that it is an exploit
• i will not be your in game police (unless you want to pay me to do so of course). i will report only if i am leading the party and someone uses an exploit against my will. if im in someone else's party, i will either (a)drop group if i find out before the quest has started, or (b) state that id like to not use the exploit in question and that if they insist then i will politely reply that i will not assist in doing so (during this process, since ill have some time on my hands, i will file a bug report, but will not file cheat report).
• if the quest is well underway before i am made aware of intent to exploit i will not waste my time spent by dropping group.

He was here before ya mate, i think he gets KK . . . your name should have been changed to KK-argonessen or some such

lol

[oronisi]

[/LIST]awesome. i look forward to not having my enjoyment of the game hampered by endless in game debates about what is and is not an exploit by other players.[/LIST]

• thank you for the clarification of at least one exploit so far.

i do not expect to be required to fill out bug reports to "safely" enjoy playing this game. i do occasionally fill out bug reports, but for the most part i just move on, regardless of whether the bug in question is beneficial or harmful to my character. doing a bug report takes too long and interrupts my enjoyment of the game. further, the handling of bugs is not the responsibility of the player base, rather the onus is on the game's management to deal with these issues. if you cant handle rectifying the number of bugs in game then you need to either (a)stop producing so many bugs, and/or (b)have more/better testers.

[*]i never go along with a behavior if i know or suspect that it is an exploit[*]i will not be your in game police (unless you want to pay me to do so of course). i will report only if i am leading the party and someone uses an exploit against my will. if im in someone else's party, i will either (a)drop group if i find out before the quest has started, or (b) state that id like to not use the exploit in question and that if they insist then i will politely reply that i will not assist in doing so (during this process, since ill have some time on my hands, i will file a bug report, but will not file cheat report).[*]if the quest is well underway before i am made aware of intent to exploit i will not waste my time spent by dropping group.[/LIST][/INDENT][/INDENT]
lol

Great post Kingly, I agree 100%....especially about not being their in-game police. I am shocked that they would ask players to turn against each other considering the small population of these games and the forced group nature as well. That said, just PUBLISH THE LIST ALREADY! And stop using the term exploit to only apply to what you consider bad Turbine....shadow dancing is an exploit, it's just not one you choose to punish because the end result is no free stuff. Publish the list, say 'these are exploits, and we will be punishing those caught using them after 1 warning' then we can all move on.

[lissa_981]

Third, the LFM panel is not for any communication, other than to recruit specific classes for specific quests. We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!
. Comments which discuss exploits in anyway, will not be acceptable. Now, I know this is a very controversial point, and we've made the following determinations to help quell any concern over this practice

• • It is DEFINITELY acceptable to place such comments in your character bio, and/or WHO panel, as long as they don't specify quests, or specific exploits or details of exploits. For example: "I don't exploit" or "I play clean." is acceptable. " I don't "spin monsters" in "The Quest for Lewt" because doing so is stupid." is not acceptable.

I will PM this too, hopefully to get an answer...


So does this mean "speed run", "no zerging", "newbs welcome", "experienced players only", and the like are ALSO banned from the LFM? None of these notes "recruit specific classes for specific quests" (Komunity Kobold's OWN WORDS here), so are they allowed?

Serious question here, because I'm sick of the inconsistancies.

It's either OK to post an LFM comment, or it's not. This cherry-picking is getting old.