Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Vhlad]

Ok, this is silly.

At leats lets us write "No exploiters" or somehting around those lines. It's to protect ourselves from playing with people that wll desire playing a different playstyle as ours. Same as those "No zergers" or "Slow paced group" LFMs to, well, keep zergers out. Or, again, those "Zerging" or "No hand holding or must know your way there" to warn people that they're doing the quest fast. Or "be self-sufficient" to tell others to not expect babysitting.

It's just a matter of having more fun, playing with peeps that play the same way we do.

Because, really, it's no fun to get to the 3/5 of a quests to then learn the group's going to exploit. Also sucks when you get a party member who tries to exploit in a raid, when you're already near the end... and you've got to finish it a member short, or sometimes, a few members short. If writing "No exploiters" isn't ok, well would there be a proper writing on LFMs to keep players liek this to join our PuGs?

Iff they don't cooperate and proceeds to bug the quest?

That's OK, but not on the LFM?

A lot of people seem to be against the whole no writing "no exploiting" in the LFM thing... but think about it. If turbine actually tells us what is bad AND enforces it, is there going to be anyone exploiting anymore? Maybe, but definitely not publically. I don't think LFMs with exploiting or people trying to join random pugs and trying to exploit will be something people need to worry about for long if turbine has a clear, defined, and policed stance on what can get you in trouble in-game.

I'm not sure if the current policy will lead to something clear and defined enough, but it is a wonderful step.

Bravo!

[ThrasherGT]

My opinion is that There is no way Turbine should be punishing anyone for what is clearly their own negligence. If You (Turbine) consider something that the players are doing to be an exploit because of Your own bad coding, Instead of punishing players, FIX IT!
Don't try to tell Me that I am a "bad" player and punish Me for using any and all resources at My disposal to complete a quest. This subject has really polarized the playerbase of DDO, and what has been done? NOTHING! Instead of FIXING THE CODE, You decide to punish the people who pay Your salaries? Ludicrous, incredible, and ridiculous are the adjectives that spring to mind when I think about this subject, and what has been done to actually fix the problems with the AI in DDO. You want to go "Big Brother" on the playerbase and ban people? Fine. I can go spend My money elsewhere. Until I am banned for trying to play My favorite game of all time the way it is coded, I will continue to use any and all resources at My disposal to finish any and all quests in the game.

DON'T BLAME THE PLAYERS FOR YOUR OWN INCOMPETENCE!!!!!!!!

[Vaypor]

A lot of good questions here. I am happy this will be addressed more openly than before, but at the same time, I'm a causal gamer who really doesn't know the specifics of the shroud bug/exploit. Yes, everyone says it exists and I don't doubt that, but I can honestly say I don't know either how to use said exploit or what it looks like when your using it. It's already been asked, but in some cases, how do you know it's not just a good tactic vs. the dreaded exploit?

I've only done 1 Meridia quest so far, twice, Running w/ the Devils. Pugged each time, failed once, completed once. I'm only just now on my 3rd Reaver Raid (4th in a few hours ) because of a bug that wouldn't let Crag the giant take my relics UNTIL MOD 6!!!! Multilple tickets and talks w/ senior GM's got me the infamous "Da gee George, there's nothing we can do" response. Anyway, my point here is, I don't look for exploits, I don't ask what they are, I know they exist, and bottomline, I DON'T want to get banned/punished for something I really don't know/don't want to know the specifics on, but could end up in a pug with exploitors.

I'm already "behind the power curve" just now being able to do the Reaver, should I now be paranoid and not try to get shroud ready and run the shroud til this bug is fixed for fear of someone in the party taking a screenshot and reporting me as part of a party that did a quest, any quest, and used an exploit, even if I didn't know what was up? Will it be MOD7 or MOD8 before it's fixed and I can just attempt to enjoy that content w/o fear of "it" being used.

And lastly, since most people do know specifics (I'm ingnorant, not stupid of what is going on) why not openly post, if you do "this" then you'll be punished. Then there is NO QUESTION what happened. As it stands, unless it's painfully obvious what occurrs, I wouldn't know if someone or a party "cheated" by using a bug/exploit.

Before someone looks at this post and quotes me as saying above saying, I don't want to know, followed at the bottom by saying, tell us so we do know and there's no question what it is. This is not a contradiction. I don't actively (or passively) search for exploits, BUT if they are going to be tough (which they should) then I want to know what it is I'm going to be held accountable for.

In the meantime, FIX THE BUG/EXPLOIT, and do it BEFORE the next MOD, oh wait, that's in a couple/three weeks isn't it. */crosses fingers hand won't get slammed in unseen door.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Gotcha. Turn in our neighbors, and watch how they mysteriously disappear from our "Community" in the night. Doing so will gain favor for you and your guild with the stat... er, Kobold. You certainly know how to foster a warm and fuzzy small-town feel. Maybe I'll get my picture on Pravda!

Hmm...I think your metafore shifted in the end...

[Lorien_the_First_One]

does anybody else think pretending to be a Kobold in order to address exploits is silly?

They are trying to drive all the pms on this topic to one address where they can be house, discussed, and responded to. Without this every dev and mod in the forum would have been spammed (and may have already been after the cube thread) with questions. It's basic information management and a good idea to direct it this way...

[TheDoctor]

Like Exploiting.


Oh... this part is HILLARIOUS to hear!

Looks like the turkeys have come out to play. Do you have something to accuse me of Reever or is this just sour grapes that your lust for power earnt you a guild demotion and the decimation of an otherwise happy group of players. Your foolish behaviour is just going to get you barred around here mate.

You are free to say what you like but be warned you better have evidence or I will make sure the forum rulers termiante your whining howl.

[Vhlad]

My opinion is that There is no way Turbine should be punishing anyone for what is clearly their own negligence. If You (Turbine) consider something that the players are doing to be an exploit because of Your own bad coding, Instead of punishing players, FIX IT!
Don't try to tell Me that I am a "bad" player and punish Me for using any and all resources at My disposal to complete a quest. This subject has really polarized the playerbase of DDO, and what has been done? NOTHING! Instead of FIXING THE CODE, You decide to punish the people who pay Your salaries? Ludicrous, incredible, and ridiculous are the adjectives that spring to mind when I think about this subject, and what has been done to actually fix the problems with the AI in DDO. You want to go "Big Brother" on the playerbase and ban people? Fine. I can go spend My money elsewhere. Until I am banned for trying to play My favorite game of all time the way it is coded, I will continue to use any and all resources at My disposal to finish any and all quests in the game.

DON'T BLAME THE PLAYERS FOR YOUR OWN INCOMPETENCE!!!!!!!!

I think if they had a very clear list of: if you do THIS and we catch you, your account could be closed, then I'd imagine most players will behave. At least, I'd really hope so. It's a tricky situation for a game that is not flooding with players, and one that lives off subscriptions, and I'd hate to see us lose people.

Blizzard has been banning tens of thousands of diabloII/ warcraft III / starcraft accounts for people using things like maphack, bots, and other external applications that are specifically used to cheat or disrupt other players since day 1. But I've NEVER seen blizzard ban someone in one of those games for taking advantage of a natural game bug using only the game itself. In fact many game bugs have turned into admired strategies, i.e. starcraft pro players using burrow, stacking units over other burrowed ones, and bringing them all up at once so when they spread out the game will force some units through a normally unpassable barrier.

My MMO experience is limited to just guildwars and DDO though, so I'm not sure what flys in MMO land. But Turbine has the right to enforce whatever rules they want, so if they do decide to ban people for taking advantage of a game bug without using any external programs, then I really really really hope everyone stops doing them and we don't lose too many players.

hmmmmm
Maybe instead of banning, something else could be done? i.e., make all the players who cheated glow bright pink and have -1 on the loot tables for a few days? I am serious here. lol. I don't care how you play as long as you're playing!

[Quanefel]

To begin, FFS, a Kobold? Come now, surely you know kobolds stink huh...Seriously though, if it has come to this level of 'people' complaining (or whining which I prefer to use but won't because that may offend some people-whoops) then maybe these people need to be more specific in when they form their parties. Who really cares if there are people who would rather do the Shroud 1-5 legit (or what they believe to be legit-take your halos and splash them with vinegar and water) or if they don't. So I think there should be a ruleset formed on forming a party....

1.Put up LFM-make comments as to quest and how you play

2.Once party is formed explain tactics, if tactics are unacceptable to any player then let them know they can form their own party and take whomever else they'd like from your party. Also be sure to let them know that if they plan on REPORTING to Big Brother than they should give their best regards from you and let them know you told them ahead of time your style of play.

3.Make sure everyone replies coz Big Brother might be in your party, if you get no replies at all from a person BOOT THEM FROM PARTY.

4.Once in quest make sure everyone smells ok, Kobolds have a unique stench that seems to linger on to those whom they may have hung out with-if you smell anything weird abort immediately-alt f4, log, break computer, do whatever you have to do, coz they will catch ya.

See how narrow this can get, noone wants to deal with it-so it really comes down to the choice of those complainers...NARC all you want about people exploiting quests (oh please please don't report me for sending in one guy to pull aggro on a mob, ahh put your sheilds away, you're blocking the door NOOOOOO) just remember that I didn't write the code-so I can do things my way and you can do things your way...Deal with it, let Turbine make their fixes, but awww I can't wait for the fix it takes too long-then how about you go apply there and see if you can fix it for us.

Get off your horses, especially when it comes to questing, the major issue here is items that are supposedly appearing on the AH, now this is unacceptable. Turn in your neighbor for that, but tattling coz I use a method to beat a quest that you don't like? Give me a break. When Turbine gets around to fixing it, it will be a different story, but for those whom have done it both ways and realize hey A is defintely harder than B, why bother with A, more kudos to ya, coz in the long run you understand what resources go into the quest and what you get out of it-I would rather save my resources for when it is fixed. Is it my fault the AI is not working properly?

You pay your money, I pay mine-I could careless if you think I'm EXPLOITING a quest because of broken AI, maybe you should be more concerned about other issues...

I am really confused here. You say you do not like complainers and go on to call anyone who complains a whiner? Which by making a post to complain about all you wrote makes you a...well, the very thing you say you do not like others doing. That makes no sense, unless you are really meaning anyone else who makes any complaint is to be labeled a "whiner" if it is not you personally?

I do not think I am comfortable with labeling anyone a "tattler or NARC" for using the features in-game that Turbine has provided us to use. When you turn in a ticket with a drop-down list of things any person can report, how does that make anyone horrible for using what they provided all of us to use? When people report spam, are they NARC's as well? Are they all tattlers for turning in a spam report? No, of course not. But to make it seem that if anyone uses that Report feature somehow makes us bad people, as though we are the ones doing something wrong does not sit well with me.

For instance, if I go on a quest or raid and we are doing ok then out of no where someone springs a bug or exploit on the rest of us when we agreed that we won't be cheating, its not right to the group. Why is it that some people think they can cheat or use an exploit when most of us do not want it and be told by those who are "ok" with it to simply keep our mouths shut. Now, that actually is a real life issue was well. People out there feel and do the same type behavior in real life and EXPECT those of us who do not wish to take part in it to keep our mouths shut, especially when they make us a part of the issue in the first place without warning us in advance. It is not right or fair. Although I personally do not like cheating or exploiting, I am not going to tell others they can not. But if they get caught, that is their own problem. A problem that could have been avoided by simply playing without exploiting. If it is a friend or someone I admire, yes I will say something. I won't push the issue but I feel its up to us to help those who feel cheating is the only way to do things. People want to claim its their right to cheat since it is "fun" to them, even when there is no grey area about this. We are suppose to not be cheating at all. Making the claim something is "fun" for someone is just a lame excuse to get away with poor behavior. It does not work in real life or a game. Its called ethics.

Another instance is trade LFM's put up in Grouping. Some people are bothered by that, some want to save that person from getting banned and will politely ask them to remove it before a GM sees it. There is nothing wrong with wanting to save another player the hassle of being banned for something like that. But in doing so, there is nothing wrong with showing that person a different means to go about trading/buying/selling in the Social Panel. I personally tell them how to use the Who listing and the comment box at the bottom. I have yet to get anyone who was angry at me for giving them a helping hand by doing any of this. In fact, they all thanked me for it. A player is saved from getting banned and I did my good deed for the day. Everyone wins.

Now, I have said this before in other threads but it needs to be addressed before. Most players who do not cheat are not overly bothered by those who wish to. But at the same time we who don't cheat/exploit should not be forced or talked down to for not sharing that belief of the exploiter. If those who want to cheat, do it with ONLY like-minded players, friends or guild mates. Do not subject the rest of the players to this behavior or get us into trouble for something we wanted no part in, in the first place. If you all get taken down and banned, do NOT take us with you. That is purely selfish to make others pay the price for a small number of exploiting/cheating players. Is that not fair? You all can cheat to your hearts content, but do not expect the rest of us to pay the price for your bad behavior. If someone tells on you all, maybe that is what is needed to get you all to forcing this on others, others who do not wish to take part in it. I may or may not agree on them telling on you all, it does not matter since I am not one to tell them if they can or can not file a ticket on cheating. Thats their call, not mine.

I think the Dev's need to reconsider and maybe understand the whole "No Cheese or No Exploiting" that might be placed into any future LFM's. If we can work with you to put something to that effect, it would save alot of headache and frustration 3/4th's of the way through any quest or raid when someone ELSE decides for us to cheat. We can at least go in knowing or before signing on that is is ok for us. Not to waste 2+ hours sometimes only to find out we are forced to drop suddenly because of ONE person's action. All of us at some point has had that happen, we had no part in an exploit but had it in fact...forced on us. We are not at fault nor should we be punished or had our time wasted. Also, should someone be turned in for exploiting it needs to be stressed that just because we are with a group does not mean we wanted nor caused an exploit/cheat. Sometimes just dropping or leaving is not an option when you put SO much time and effort into something. It is easy to say for us to ...just drop but not so easily once it happens to you. Can you understand how we feel about this?

Yes, I know this is long but one more thing. There are clearly two sides to the cheating/exploiting issue. There really is no grey area since we ALL agreed not to cheat/exploit when we decided to hit that "accept" button when installing for the EULA. I personally feel it is a matter of honor that if we agreed to the rules, we should try to respect those rules as well as we can. Sure, they are not written in stone nor is it legally binding. It is an honor code type thing that I think we should try to uphold to the best of our abilities. With that said, IF a person makes the choice to ignore said rules and wants to violate them for whatever reason they want, can you at least respect those of us who want to follow the rules/codes? No blacklisting, talking down, harassing those of us who want to play with respect and honor. Yet if you do get caught someday, a big "I told you so" just does not seem enough. With that, I think most of us can agree we still do not want cheaters/exploiters to be flat out banned. I do not want one person removed from the game for any reason, unless that person has shown he/she does not want to be a team player with the rest of the player base. I adore the players at large, you are all good people that I can see. You might not believe in the same things but you are playing a game I love, which makes you all ok in my book.

[RTN]

Here is what we suggest:

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

Here's what this translates as: you are required to drop group if you see an exploit and then you are supposed to report everyone involved. You do realize what you've set it motion here, don't you? You're requiring everyone to be a snitch to the authorities. This is what police states do. Everyone acts out of fear that they will be reported or blamed if they don't report first. I understand you have the right to require this as a private company, but is this really the path you want to go down? What's next, a report button next to the make friend button to make it easier?

You've also opened the door to griefing. Don't like someone, report them for exploiting. Some people considering kiting or using firewalls or jumping around through them to be an exploit.

You also realize that not everyone checks the boards here, right,? Or only reads their own server's forum. What happens when someone who doesn't know that some things aren't allowed anymore does something and ends up banned because someone reported them for saying "no exploits" in their LFM.

Can I report the devs for failing to do something simple like include the Shroud in our completion counter and favor windows? They say its being done correctly, but I think they're using an exploit to cheat me out of my just rewards. What if they forgot a timer on a raid in the future and then later implemented one, saying that it should have been there in the first place? Can I report them for enabling an exploit, especially since TS doesn't have a timer so there is no reason for us to expect all raids have them? Also, the more rules and specifics you make, the more you have to enforce them and the stricter you have to get over time, losing the ability for giving leeway and flexibility. (case in point: the forums and moderating)

Here's one effect: PUGs will be scarcer for fear of getting reported for something, be it an unliked tactic, someone you can't control who griefs the party by using an exploit (now that everyone is required to drop group and then report everyone involved), or simple dislike. Heck, a griefer could be the one who utilizes an exploit or convinces others to do it, then drops group and reports everyone. That's the road we're headed down now that we're required to drop group when something bugs (even if not done intentionally or it wasn't planned) since if you don't drop and report first, someone else might and get you banned. You don't get to enjoy, but must act out of fear that someone might not like something and then you get reported.

I normally support the devs against a lot of bashing, even when I'm not happy with them, but is this really the road you want to go down? Think out the ethical and practical consequences of this.

[Borror0]

Maybe instead of banning, something else could be done? i.e., make all the players who cheated glow bright pink and have -1 on the loot tables for a few days? I am serious here. lol. I don't care how you play as long as you're playing!

Actually, that seems an idea... but I'd go for -5 to loot, for about two weeks. Just so exploiting really hurts.

[The_Ick]

Actually, that seems an idea... but I'd go for -5 to loot, for about two weeks. Just so exploiting really hurts.

Not sure how possible that is, but i think that is a great idea.

[RTN]

does anybody else think pretending to be a Kobold in order to address exploits is silly?

am i being too cynical?

Can't we just talk about exploits like mature adults?

I'd imagine they're doing it so that we don't get mad or blame any specific person at Turbine. It's the same reason they're using the Cube again rather than having individuals locking threads and deleting posts. It helps to keep us from fixating on certain people and getting really angry with them. They probably also hope that a little humor will deflect some of the outrage. But yes, it is silly.

[Quanefel]

Actually, that seems an idea... but I'd go for -5 to loot, for about two weeks. Just so exploiting really hurts.

I think I could go along with that. I'd take it a step further though. Maybe make a "Wall of Shame" and their toon name placed there for those two weeks as well? Maybe make that -5 loot effect be visible with a special curse symbol above that toons head for those 2 weeks. No need to ban anyone, shame them into playing fairly?

[Aspenor]

Curse of the Exploiter

-5 to attack rolls, damage, AC, saves, and skill checks for 4 weeks for all account characters
-5 to chest loot level

[Sambvca]

I think we're on to something. Let's turn the old tent space into a player punishment zone. We need stocks, and 'plioters go there for 2 playing hours- no moving, no /telling, just reading chat.

[brshelton]

Curse of the Exploiter

-5 to attack rolls, damage, AC, saves, and skill checks for 4 weeks for all account characters
-5 to chest loot level

sounds great but make it -10...

[Borror0]

Curse of the Exploiter

-5 to attack rolls, damage, AC, saves, and skill checks for 4 weeks for all account characters
-5 to chest loot level

How about 5 neg levels too?

[Quanefel]

How about 5 neg levels too?

Na, I say a pink fluffy tu-tu and a pretty little tiara with the whole "Exploiter Curse" idea. Wait, on second thought maybe some would actually...want that. Ick....lol >.<

[moorewr]

Na, I say a pink fluffy tu-tu and a pretty little tiara with the whole "Exploiter Curse" idea. Wait, on second thought maybe some would actually...want that. Ick....lol >.<

Yes! At least once! Extra awesome!

AND --> I'm still waiting for my ponies and flowers on the forums. Who do I have to insult to get enough points????

[Oreg]

Yark! So, hello again! It is good be back!
In future, GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. Me will be much happy to help when it comes to exploit question.

If you need to ask question, direct it to me, and I will do me best to answer your question, including whether a particular behavior is or is not considered an offense.

Me be clear though, we will still not allow detail talk about how to exploit on the forum. No don't do it! Yark! Be sure to PM me the question if you must share explicit detail!

Please also do not report exploiters on forums. The proper place to report exploiters is in-game using the "?" button.

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

Also, me want to warn those who think it ok to be exploit everything. As part of new policy, if you caught doing something we say not okay, we be more strict when looking for you! We ban from game for taking bad advantage! We also bring out the torture device and branding irons and....

I will admit that I didn't read past page 1 so i apologize if this was asked and answered.

Will you be formally stating what actions are considered exploits in a forum or post that is easy to find? Banning people for exploiting should only occur if you have clearly stated it is an exploit and I do not see how you can do that without detailing the exploit mechanics. Although I applaud this effort I see some serious issues developing. And quite honestly the old standby "you know when you are doing something wrong" isn't cut and dry.

I think if players find ways around quest objectives using ingenuity and Ai/mechanics/etc that may be "not as designed", it is not an exploit until Turbine has officially declared it as such.