Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Kisaragi]

Especially considering the help Q has been for me in various matters. I appreciate the work all the developers do for this product. It may not seem that way at times, and I may be frustrated or upset, or even angry, but as some of you might see, I'm still here. I still try to have faith in the franchise even with several sore spots.

One such sore spot is the over-inflating of monsters to be resistant beyond what is available to use. I'll give you an example. One of the tips in game says that some monsters have spell resistance. In my experience of playing a wizard for 16 levels, I haven't fought one that doesn't have spell resistance. And often times, a lot of it. My wizard has a 34 in intelligence, without a +3 intelligence tome, or without the green steel items. However, lots of mobs still save lots. I may have to hit em 4 or 5 times to hit. I may have to use enervate to hit things at equal level seemingly immune. We will never have that SR. HP too. Monsters end up having 2 or 3 times the number of HPs that we as players do, even at equal level. So unless you're maximizing and empowering, you probably won't kill things with damage spells on the first hit.

Bosses are no exception to this rule. All of them are way over inflated for their CR and level range. And this brings me to my point.

Given that loot sucks. Given that risk does not equal reward (IE. I can do a level 14 quest on elite and get level 6 junk). Given that enemies are often given unfair advantages for jumping up terrain we cannot, or use abilities that we cannot, or even just are flat out immune to something for no reason given...

I have no reason what so ever to give enemies a further edge, including you Kobold, by telling you if or when I'm exploiting. We get nothing out of it except harder quests and missions and enemies for even more pathetic loot. You want to find the exploits, hire more GMs and testers to find em. Helping you at this point may end up costing me. And for a level 16 character who is always broke now, no matter what I run, things have cost me plenty. When the risk equals the reward, I may be more forthcoming. When mobs are equal in more ways to the players, I may be more forthcoming. As of now, forget it.

I wish you luck in your pursuits, as I imagine some here might think the same as me.

[Ringos]

Today's patch only fix lag, since it was very troublesome. However, some exploits have been addressed in previous hotfix.

Just stepped into the Shroud part one. Lag not fixed. Ringos angry!

[Burradin]

It is real simple, if a tactic is deemed to be exploiting, then it needs to be listed where players can easily see the list and avoid it. If there is no official list, then how can someone break it. They have not banned or suspended the players in baseball that admitted previously using HGH. That is because baseball did not have a rule against that when they took it. Once baseball made it a banned substance, the situation has changed.

With that said, if it is a tactic that can be used through-out the game, and the intention of the tactic is actually with in how it really should work, why would a player be punished for using it? If it causes a unintended reaction in the quest, then would it not be incumbent on Turbine to fix it. The talk is to report that person and possibly ban them for doing something in quest X that if they do in quest Y is completely ok?

Selling of items not properly received, yep, easy call. Not using a good game tactic (in any other quest) in a quest because that quest has a coding issue, not good. As a project manager for a number of web applications, if the applications do not function to the requirements, we don't blame the customer/user, we find out why it doesn't work, fix it and try to determine how it happened to prevent a future repeat.

[adamkatt]

Just stepped into the Shroud part one. Lag not fixed. Ringos angry!

I swear i made a responce to that also in this thread, but its gone now....

[tolana]

So now you are telling me that in order to play this game without worrying about getting kicked off, I have to pay attention to the forums?

[cam]

Some really good points brought up here. I'm all for not exploiting when 'avoidable'. More often than not I believe it can be avoided, and there is a certain amount of player responsibility to do what can be done to avoid exploits. However, self party subjective policing is ****. Fix the exploit quickly, that is the dev responsibility. Making party members report on each other is not our game, our job, or IMO appropriate. And like some one else brought up, there had better be evidence that an exploit was used before anything comes of it.

[cpampine]

does anybody else think pretending to be a Kobold in order to address exploits is silly?

am i being too cynical?

Can't we just talk about exploits like mature adults?

[Epsilom]

...My take on it is, I use what ever tactics I can to complete the quest....

Like Exploiting.

...These so called "exploits" I don't even know what you're talking about...

Oh... this part is HILLARIOUS to hear!

[Borror0]

Yark! So, hello again! It is good be back!
In future, GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. Me will be much happy to help when it comes to exploit question.

Nice, finally!

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

Ok, this is silly.

At leats lets us write "No exploiters" or somehting around those lines. It's to protect ourselves from playing with people that wll desire playing a different playstyle as ours. Same as those "No zergers" or "Slow paced group" LFMs to, well, keep zergers out. Or, again, those "Zerging" or "No hand holding or must know your way there" to warn people that they're doing the quest fast. Or "be self-sufficient" to tell others to not expect babysitting.

It's just a matter of having more fun, playing with peeps that play the same way we do.

Because, really, it's no fun to get to the 3/5 of a quests to then learn the group's going to exploit. Also sucks when you get a party member who tries to exploit in a raid, when you're already near the end... and you've got to finish it a member short, or sometimes, a few members short. If writing "No exploiters" isn't ok, well would there be a proper writing on LFMs to keep players liek this to join our PuGs?

And just in case there are some of you who have no idea what we're talking about, an exploit is defined as:
"Any purposeful activity which takes advantage of a game bug or defect which returns benefit or quest progress without cost or risk to the player or team."

Hopefuly, that'll stop the "What's an exploit" discussions.

If they argue, me say that you kick them from the group, politely.

Iff they don't cooperate and proceeds to bug the quest?

I think you could avoid offending with questions by having the leader make it clear in the beginning of the party: "We're playing clean, no harm no foul if you leave now." No questions required.

That's OK, but not on the LFM?

[Pyromaniac]

Cordelia's Pravada post made me spit my drink all over my monitor, funny as anything

PMing more detail from my original post to KK, looking forward to the specific list. In terms of where the list could be posted, hey it could be a newsletter from Stormreach, we haven't had one it a bit. It could also be when you login.

And to be clear, I've never seen any of the tactics in question, or participated in them, or been shown them by those who deny they're involved and never seen them do it. I'm psychic

[Aedyn]

My take on it is, I use what ever tactics I can to complete the quest, If I learn that I can, for example, jump to a spot where I cant be reached, am protected from line of sight and can still take things out or draw them into a vulnerable position then I will do it. If you "Turbine" screw something up and your monster just stands there while we pound him that too is a tactic we can use, its not an "Exploit", How am I supposed to know if you meant the "Tactic" to be there or not...?? or if you just screwed something up again.

An exploit IMHO is for example, going in and out of the quest with different chars to gain end game benefits without being present on end game.

I have played this game for 2 years and I have many tactics worked out, if people follow my tactics in other groups does that make me a baddie. They say to the Kobold "such and such taught me to do that" and now its my fault. I don't think so, I don't write the code, I just play, Its Turbines job to make it work/not work, not mine.

Maybe you should have a list and define these so called exploits so we all know what you are referring to otherwise you have a hell of a police job on your hands.

And by the way if I am doing something that you consider an exploit then you better give me a warning because I have no idea what is and isn’t ok to do. And then what if I'm doing more than 1 exploit and don't know it will you give me a warning for each..???

This is ridiculous. Just fix it and be called for what you are "Nerfer" we can handle that its been happening all along.

That being said, there are many other things Turbine should be working on aka ladder bug, aka swim bug, aka lag spikes aka more content. These so called "exploits" I don't even know what you're talking about.

I agree here, if u guys want us to use ONLY the tactics you want us to use then TELL us what they are. Seriously, quit trying to hire blind "brown coats" and just let us know......unless of course....you simply dont know?? Is that the reason you need to be PM'ed with details about the named tactics/exploits? Is that the reason you have to be so vague??
Tell us something. Stop beating around the bush. Stop with the flowery speeches about nothing from a cute kobold

Hero Method
Firewalls
Shield Blocking
Arrow bouncing
Pets (Cheesy, but since it wasnt fixed with the hotfix....is it??)
Any other tactic that has been thought up by crafty players to that needs to be punished for being too creative?

We're waiting. alot of people may not be saying it, but I bet everything that we're all wanting an answer to this

[Anastasios]

To begin, FFS, a Kobold? Come now, surely you know kobolds stink huh...Seriously though, if it has come to this level of 'people' complaining (or whining which I prefer to use but won't because that may offend some people-whoops) then maybe these people need to be more specific in when they form their parties. Who really cares if there are people who would rather do the Shroud 1-5 legit (or what they believe to be legit-take your halos and splash them with vinegar and water) or if they don't. So I think there should be a ruleset formed on forming a party....

1.Put up LFM-make comments as to quest and how you play

2.Once party is formed explain tactics, if tactics are unacceptable to any player then let them know they can form their own party and take whomever else they'd like from your party. Also be sure to let them know that if they plan on REPORTING to Big Brother than they should give their best regards from you and let them know you told them ahead of time your style of play.

3.Make sure everyone replies coz Big Brother might be in your party, if you get no replies at all from a person BOOT THEM FROM PARTY.

4.Once in quest make sure everyone smells ok, Kobolds have a unique stench that seems to linger on to those whom they may have hung out with-if you smell anything weird abort immediately-alt f4, log, break computer, do whatever you have to do, coz they will catch ya.

See how narrow this can get, noone wants to deal with it-so it really comes down to the choice of those complainers...NARC all you want about people exploiting quests (oh please please don't report me for sending in one guy to pull aggro on a mob, ahh put your sheilds away, you're blocking the door NOOOOOO) just remember that I didn't write the code-so I can do things my way and you can do things your way...Deal with it, let Turbine make their fixes, but awww I can't wait for the fix it takes too long-then how about you go apply there and see if you can fix it for us.

Get off your horses, especially when it comes to questing, the major issue here is items that are supposedly appearing on the AH, now this is unacceptable. Turn in your neighbor for that, but tattling coz I use a method to beat a quest that you don't like? Give me a break. When Turbine gets around to fixing it, it will be a different story, but for those whom have done it both ways and realize hey A is defintely harder than B, why bother with A, more kudos to ya, coz in the long run you understand what resources go into the quest and what you get out of it-I would rather save my resources for when it is fixed. Is it my fault the AI is not working properly?

You pay your money, I pay mine-I could careless if you think I'm EXPLOITING a quest because of broken AI, maybe you should be more concerned about other issues...

[Razvan]

So it is a gamble when we join a group. If that group is not honest about their intentions up front and takes actions that I can prevent or alter I then need to drop that group despite whatever investment in resources that I might have spent on thqat group and then I am to leave myself susceptible to harassment by making it obvious that I have reported them.

I don't understand what the difference is between posting in your LFM "no exploits" and informing each party member that you will not be using exploits upon them joining!!!

If they are going to be dishonest, they will be dishonest anyway, so why do people have to be pigheaded and insist that Turbine's rule of "no exploits" messages in the LFMs is a bad idea...? Is it for the sake of arguement or does your point have any validity to it?

[Big_Russ]

does anybody else think pretending to be a Kobold in order to address exploits is silly?

am i being too cynical?

Can't we just talk about exploits like mature adults?

No. You are not too cynical. I agree you 100%.

[Venar]

How about the Rainbow in the Dark early scorpion killing?

[Gabrion]

First off, I'm glad to see something is finally being done about this. It's good to see that the devs will finally allow some productive discussion on the topic. /applause

However, there are a few major issues with the new policy.

1) You really need to think about the punishments you may or may not have doled out during the "we-don't-talk-about-exploits" frenzy. If you were punishing people on the forums for talking in general terms (and I'm not saying you did because that would be against the CoC), you should probably review that.

2) How can you prove intention? This is honestly a big problem. Your tips about recognizing exploits always have to do with a person knowingly doing something that circumvents the challenges of the game. It's pretty easy to argue ignorance though, and unless you guys have us talking about it in chat or asking the KK about that specific action, how could you know that we aren't just playing the game the best we know how and if a glitch happens to pop up, so be it?

3) When you say you fix it, you need to be more specific. In the latest set of patches you say you fixed a problem in a particular end-game raid that can lead to a particular bug. So when I play the game and an encounter that supposedly has been fixed is still trivialized when I use standard tactics, what am I to assume? You said it's fixed (with nothing more specific than that), so this tactic must be fair game I guess.

[Anastasios]

How about the Rainbow in the Dark early scorpion killing?

They fixed it, and should it be an exploit-no (bad AI, bad coding)

How about the non-killing of cubes in The Tomb of the Blighted, is that an exploit? Conspiracy Theorists say Big Brother may have something to do with it...

[Yaga_Nub]

How about the Rainbow in the Dark early scorpion killing?

They fixed it, and should it be an exploit-no (bad AI, bad coding)

How about the non-killing of cubes in The Tomb of the Blighted, is that an exploit? Conspiracy Theorists say Big Brother may have something to do with it...

Actually this has been in the game since smiting ranged weapons have been in the game.

Necros or Nirvana gave me a smiting longbow way back before there were more than a few on each server and ANY thing that was a construct could be smitten before they activated.

I don't see it as a bug. Think about it this way, could someone walk up and kill you in your sleep? Sure they could. Well the constructs are still constructs before they activate (i.e. wake up). So it's working as it is supposed to.

[KaKa]

Yaga is right it was any construct in the game that stood there till activated, also worked with banishing ranged weapons too on any monster that stood there till activated ie. earth eles, efreet in ADQ1 right when you fought here the first time etc.

But alas Anastasios is also right did rainbow yesterday and the guy with the smiting ranged weapon stated that it wasn't working. I was shocked, then said to myself took them long enough to fix it. So I guess discussion is pointless now.

[Borror0]

This forum is a great idea IMO. I like a lot of what I have seen and I hope for improvement in other places. Not getting specific about an exploit I can understand. KK can get plenty of input from us on how it's done and then he can say " Doing x to cause x is against the rules and will result in x action taken by Turbine as a result". Turbine is not protecting anyone by having this info in the open. It is easily available in the most popular quest in the game in 90%+ of the runs on my server so them reading about it on the forums is not going to help them learn about how to do it better than actually participating 24/7.

There is a lot of discussion about another part of the Shroud and whether the general way people do that is or isn't an exploit and I'd like to hear some input on that. I am not sure that mini-bosses binding in certain areas or any area is not intended. I think it's possible that our task was to discover who stays where but in case that's not the case, I have been pulling all of them to one area simultaneously and doing them all at once just to be sure.

I have been guilty of making LFM's that say no bugging in my Shroud runs. I have had very few problems as a result. Of the two I have had, one led to me getting two infraction points for my participation in a thread with the person who broke my rule. I fully expected even harsher action then I got for my part in the discussion and I even began to doubt whether or not Turbine considered what happened an exploit since both the OP and myself and others repeatedly talked about the particular exploit and my infraction poits were actually given for calling him the Op a liar. This bothered me until now. The second incident involved someone asking if we would be employing "the feature" in part 5 and going ahead and making it happen anyway after he was told no. He then, in a pug with several IFV members, did the thing that causes the thing in part 5 while in the pre-instance and asked if that was an exploit just to fuel fires further. This lead to me sending a note to his guild leader to try to stop any bad blood between our guilds. None of this would be necessary if the policy was previously where it appears to be heading now. I didn't report #2 at any point even though his actions might have merited it. I did report the first person and told him I would be as soon as he did it which I think lead to the post I recieved my infraction points for. He admitted in his post to having upwards of 50 completions and was proud that maybe only 20 of them were done using "the feature". Which brings me to my next point...

A guildy of mine was invited to a group last night by someone who is known to employ this tactic. For the most part, my guild no longer runs with his. They did their thing in act 5 and as soon as the goal was accomplished all the talk was centered on making fun of those who either don't do it that way or have a problem with it. This is sad to me as someone who loves tha game because for me it's not really about whether people are breaking the rules. I am no saint. For me is simply that it would ruin the game for me and also I hate hypocrites. I say hypocrites because many of these people who use this tactic are some of the top players on my server and it's simply not needed. These same people will argue with you all day that it's not an exploit but when I invite them to have KK come along on their raid and to instruct him as to how to perform their tactic I get no takers. To me a man should be able to do as he claims to believe " always". And lastly it's not really fair to legit players that these people get to complete this challenging quest ( for most) essentially for free and benefit greatly from the vast rewards it offers when they have not earned it. It gives them a big edge over the game and rest of the players.

Rant over

I just wanted to quote that post, as I want to emphasis it.

Really, nice post Chynum.... and an answer on the second part of the Shroud would be Nice.