Gather round! Lets talk about exploits!

[Quarion]

Hello all!
I just wanted to take a moment and let you guys know, how much we appreciate your patience and cooperation in the past few weeks. When it comes to dealing with, how to report, and discussing exploits, it can be tough to know how to properly handle the situation.

We've also heard about many frustrations with the rules regarding exploits and how we handle them as a community.

After careful review, I also felt that we could definately benefit from a more productive policy, and the many parties involved have reviewed and settled upon what we feel would be a better way to handle exploits.

Many of you will remember Kommunity Kobold. He's been away for quite a while, but I'd like to reintroduce him to you.


No no! Wait, where are you all going? Come back! I swear he wont bite this time!

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Yark! Hallo!
/Waves sheepishly

[Quarion]

Going forward, if you have any sensitive concerns regarding exploits, Kommunity Kobold will be here to listen! He's our new resident Exploit Expert, and I'll let him have the floor to explain what's happening with our exploit policy.

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Yark! So, hello again! It is good be back!
In future, GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. Me will be much happy to help when it comes to exploit question.

If you need to ask question, direct it to me, and I will do me best to answer your question, including whether a particular behavior is or is not considered an offense.

Me be clear though, we will still not allow detail talk about how to exploit on the forum. No don't do it! Yark! Be sure to PM me the question if you must share explicit detail!

Please also do not report exploiters on forums. The proper place to report exploiters is in-game using the "?" button.

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

Also, me want to warn those who think it ok to be exploit everything. As part of new policy, if you caught doing something we say not okay, we be more strict when looking for you! We ban from game for taking bad advantage! We also bring out the torture device and branding irons and....

[Kommunity_Kobold]

And me too.

[Magnyr_Delorn]

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

May I ask why?

[Dimz]

Was alot of arguement on my server in Shroud. Some "cheesy" tactics which involved Arraetrikos "paralyzed" so to speak. Just wondering if that was considered an exploit or not?

[Mhykke]

KK,

You guys taking a look at the various named weapons from shroud and von1 that should drop on leaving showing up outside those quests?

[Kommunity_Kobold]

May I ask why?

Because we not want to highlight in such a prominent place, which quests/areas have known exploits. We not deny it, but its better to keep it in the DL as much as possible.

[Angelus_dead]

If you need to ask question, direct it to me, and I will do me best to answer your question, including whether a particular behavior is or is not considered an offense.

So there were multiple confusing patches this past week, some of them with vague release notes ("Inattentive monsters"). I wonder if any exploits were fixed recently, so I can go back to doing some perfectly normal and reasonable things which have lately been out-of-bounds because they cause important monsters to go brain dead.

[Kommunity_Kobold]

So there were multiple confusing patches this past week, some of them with vague release notes ("Inattentive monsters"). I wonder if any exploits were fixed recently, so I can go back to doing some perfectly normal and reasonable things which have lately been out-of-bounds because they cause important monsters to go brain dead.

Today's patch only fix lag, since it was very troublesome. However, some exploits have been addressed in previous hotfix.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

If you need to ask question, direct it to me, and I will do me best to answer your question, including whether a particular behavior is or is not considered an offense.

Thank you And to think, I earned 4 points for suggesting just that to the Cube...I think I like you better

Me be clear though, we will still not allow detail talk about how to exploit on the forum.

Very reasonable.

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!.

I don't understand that KK. For example, if in quest X you can make monster Y bug out by twirling around in circles and you know many ppl use the twirl technique, what's wrong with upfront saying "my group doesn't approve of that kinda thing". I can understand you prohibitting "no twirling" in the LFM, but what's wrong with the generic "please don't join us and expect to cheat" which is all they are really doing?

Should you join a group that wants to use questionable methods to complete the quest, you should politely inform them that you don't break rules and drop the group. If you're feeling ambitious, we would appreciate a report to Customer Service that they are exploiting. (The sooner this report comes in, the better.)

Except that having spent 45 minutes or an hour in a raid you don't really want to drop in the last 30 seconds....

[Kommunity_Kobold]

Now now... this decision by all of us, including Mr Big Jiggly. We may enforce rules, but we not always like them either.

[TheDoctor]

My take on it is, I use what ever tactics I can to complete the quest, If I learn that I can, for example, jump to a spot where I cant be reached, am protected from line of sight and can still take things out or draw them into a vulnerable position then I will do it. If you "Turbine" screw something up and your monster just stands there while we pound him that too is a tactic we can use, its not an "Exploit", How am I supposed to know if you meant the "Tactic" to be there or not...?? or if you just screwed something up again.

An exploit IMHO is for example, going in and out of the quest with different chars to gain end game benefits without being present on end game.

I have played this game for 2 years and I have many tactics worked out, if people follow my tactics in other groups does that make me a baddie. They say to the Kobold "such and such taught me to do that" and now its my fault. I don't think so, I don't write the code, I just play, Its Turbines job to make it work/not work, not mine.

Maybe you should have a list and define these so called exploits so we all know what you are referring to otherwise you have a hell of a police job on your hands.

And by the way if I am doing something that you consider an exploit then you better give me a warning because I have no idea what is and isn’t ok to do. And then what if I'm doing more than 1 exploit and don't know it will you give me a warning for each..???

This is ridiculous. Just fix it and be called for what you are "Nerfer" we can handle that its been happening all along.

That being said, there are many other things Turbine should be working on aka ladder bug, aka swim bug, aka lag spikes aka more content. These so called "exploits" I don't even know what you're talking about.

[Mockduck]

Thank you And to think, I earned 4 points for suggesting just that to the Cube...I think I like you better




Very reasonable.



I don't understand that KK. For example, if in quest X you can make monster Y bug out by twirling around in circles and you know many ppl use the twirl technique, what's wrong with upfront saying "my group doesn't approve of that kinda thing". I can understand you prohibitting "no twirling" in the LFM, but what's wrong with the generic "please don't join us and expect to cheat" which is all they are really doing?



Except that having spent 45 minutes or an hour in a raid you don't really want to drop in the last 30 seconds....

I'm with the crowd on this one. I'll be honest - I've stopped running the shroud since I've had recent discussions about various issues. I've thought about doing the "no exploit" listing in the LFM. A particular issue in the raid was used widespread enough that finding a group that wasn't doing it became difficult enough for me that it was no longer worth the effort to run the raid. I - like - the "we're keeping it clean" kind of messages on exploitable quests whose issues have become commonplace. I guess in the future I'll have to invite people, tell them over voice about my prerequisites, and then deal with the arguments, etc that arise. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me. But I do understand in general terms why Turbine doesn't want to have "no cheating" posts constantly connected to certain quests. I guess I'm not sure what the solution is.

[Kisaragi]

Especially considering the help Q has been for me in various matters. I appreciate the work all the developers do for this product. It may not seem that way at times, and I may be frustrated or upset, or even angry, but as some of you might see, I'm still here. I still try to have faith in the franchise even with several sore spots.

One such sore spot is the over-inflating of monsters to be resistant beyond what is available to use. I'll give you an example. One of the tips in game says that some monsters have spell resistance. In my experience of playing a wizard for 16 levels, I haven't fought one that doesn't have spell resistance. And often times, a lot of it. My wizard has a 34 in intelligence, without a +3 intelligence tome, or without the green steel items. However, lots of mobs still save lots. I may have to hit em 4 or 5 times to hit. I may have to use enervate to hit things at equal level seemingly immune. We will never have that SR. HP too. Monsters end up having 2 or 3 times the number of HPs that we as players do, even at equal level. So unless you're maximizing and empowering, you probably won't kill things with damage spells on the first hit.

Bosses are no exception to this rule. All of them are way over inflated for their CR and level range. And this brings me to my point.

Given that loot sucks. Given that risk does not equal reward (IE. I can do a level 14 quest on elite and get level 6 junk). Given that enemies are often given unfair advantages for jumping up terrain we cannot, or use abilities that we cannot, or even just are flat out immune to something for no reason given...

I have no reason what so ever to give enemies a further edge, including you Kobold, by telling you if or when I'm exploiting. We get nothing out of it except harder quests and missions and enemies for even more pathetic loot. You want to find the exploits, hire more GMs and testers to find em. Helping you at this point may end up costing me. And for a level 16 character who is always broke now, no matter what I run, things have cost me plenty. When the risk equals the reward, I may be more forthcoming. When mobs are equal in more ways to the players, I may be more forthcoming. As of now, forget it.

I wish you luck in your pursuits, as I imagine some here might think the same as me.

[Ringos]

Q, the Kommunity Kobald AND the Cube? This is like an All-Star thread!

[Aspenor]

Quarion, KK, you have a PM. I think you chose the wrong way to word your clarifications/answers. Just a thought/suggestion. Clarification would be nice.

[oronisi]

I just need to weigh in here and say the #1 exploit (bugging the pit fiend) currently used in this game is NOT strictly an exploit. EVERY single mob in DDO can stop attacking on it's own, with zero provocation from the player. So to say this is ONLY an exploit, or 100% under player control is utter B. S. Please address your AI and the problem rather than trying to patch one simple symptom of the problem. Please don't hold players accountable for something that is not under their control. If you need to, close down the bugged quests until they are fixed. This includes the Abbot by the way. You guys closed that Goodblades quest when there were slimes in it that could be exploited, I don't know when or why you changed your policy on that.

[Dark_Helmet]

Yark! So, hello again! It is good be back!
In future, GENERAL discussion of exploits will no longer be taboo subject. However detailing the steps or other significant details of an exploit will continue to be off limits. Me will be much happy to help when it comes to exploit question.

Yay!

We also not like it when players put things like "No exploiting" or other exploit related comment in LFM panel. Doing so is no no and will be noticed!

Can you reconsider this? I mean pretty much any quest can have theoretical expoits - the problem is that some people don't realize the difference between a tactict and an exploit.

Here is an example that has been discussed by DEVS so I don't think it is taboo:
In one of the missions there is a way to jump up and sneak to get the switches and this bypasses monsters. Some people considered it an exploit until a DEV said it was intended that way.
In a different quest, the ability to jump and bypass a fight was considered an exploit and it was fixed. We did not know it was an exploit until a DEV confirmed it.

To go back to the LFM, they could post "No bypassing monsters" but if we don't know if that is an exploit or not how can we truely build the party we want to run? The next best thing is to just post "No Cheese", you can send a tell to the Leader and ask what they are talking about and they can respond "No bypassing monsters". To me, that is just like saying "zerg run", "Self heal only", "no Charming Monsters", "no Dancing balls", "no recalling for mana", "Permadeath run", etc.

Until we KNOW it is an exploit, it could just be a leader not wanting to do a certain tactic.

Also, me want to warn those who think it ok to be exploit everything. As part of new policy, if you caught doing something we say not okay, we be more strict when looking for you! We ban from game for taking bad advantage! We also bring out the torture device and branding irons and....

See above example - if we don't know something is bad, how come we get punished? I agree that there are some really bad exploits that are obvious, but what about tactics - using your build's ability that is fine here, but not there?