Acrobat II and Q-staves

[SableShadow]

/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata!

[Invalid_86]

Oh no! Gymkata! (rolls Sanity check!)

[DNDJESS]

/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata!

I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.

[SableShadow]

I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.

Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents.

I'm just saying it's maybe easier to just give the speed bonus (currently planned) and make it finessable...done! Otherwise, there's sorting out some kind of mechanic to switch it from one to the other. Don't know how complicated that might be, but haven't seen anything like it in ddo (yet). *shrug*


Oh, and...Gymkata!

[DNDJESS]

Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents.

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

[Invalid_86]

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

It's almost trying to put a square peg...into a round hole! The mystery lives on!

Oh, and...Gymkata!

Aaaaah!!! It's everywhere! Why is that guy karate fighting ninjas on a pommel horse?????
(rolls another Sanity Check!)

But wait....he didn't use a quarterstaff.........maybe it's a sign?

[SableShadow]

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

Sure. I said before, you only get pack space and maybe a feat or two. Heck, make it finessable as a 2-hander *and* a double-weapon, user's choice. It'd be awesome on the Reaver staff, but other than that it'd be sub-par compared to other weapons available.

If you need the feats to make it viable, then the only thing you're saving is pack space. Hence, just make it finessable, keep the speed increase, and be done. Die hard stave wielders (stavers? stavenators?) can save a couple feats, lose some dps, and save a bit of pack space.

And, RR? This one's for you.


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Gymkata!

[SableShadow]

But wait....he didn't use a quarterstaff.........maybe it's a sign?

You mean...Thief-Acrobats should get a bonus pommel horse proficency instead of stave bonus abilities?

I think you may have something there.



And, of course....Gymkata!

[Invalid_86]

And, RR? This one's for you.


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Gymkata!

Gaaaargh!!!! (rolls Sanity Check)
Aw man now I need to change my pants

[dejafu]

A note for those who worry about a lack of precedence for finessable two-handed weapons in PnP:

In the 3.5 book Races of the Wild, p. 166: The elven courtblade is an exotic weapon that is two-handed, finessable, and is not treated as a light weapon.

Granted, it's an exotic weapon, but it also has the crit range of a rapier and does 1d10 damage, so it would seem the game designers didn't think that a making a two-handed weapon finessable was enough to justify expending an entire feat

Come to think of it... To heck with quarterstaves... devs, where's my elven courtblade?!

[Invalid_86]

A note for those who worry about a lack of precedence for finessable two-handed weapons in PnP:

Spiked chains. Extremely cheesy, sure, but two handed and finessable.

[jjflanigan]

Yes...but quarterstaff is a "simple weapon" not exotic, heck it's not even martial. If you want most of the options applied to it, you'll need to have it pulled out of the simple weapon category as it doesn't make sense to beef it up otherwise (aside from the fact that you just want it to be beefed up).

[SableShadow]

Yes...but quarterstaff is a "simple weapon" not exotic, heck it's not even martial. If you want most of the options applied to it, you'll need to have it pulled out of the simple weapon category as it doesn't make sense to beef it up otherwise (aside from the fact that you just want it to be beefed up).

Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

The thrust of the thread is 'hey, devs...if you're going to put the staff in as a specialty weapon for the Thief-Acrobat, be sure to make it finessable'.

[dejafu]

Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

/signed.

In addition, what I said about the elven courtblade also applies with the spiked chain: you get a lot more out of the weapon than just being able to finesse a two-hander - specifically, the ability to double your reach while still being able to attack adjacent opponents. Which is probably meaningless to anybody who doesn't play PnP, but trust me, it's the main reason people take the feat to get it - I've rarely seen anybody use it with finesse.

Still, it's a powerful enough ability that the game designers made it only appear on exotic weapons, so it seems reasonable to ask people to pay something for the ability. Making it a part of the enhancement is an excellent compromise.

[jjflanigan]

Well...keep in mind the sickles, daggers, and light maces are also in the simple category, and also finessable. Also, I'm more of a 'make it finessable in the hands of a Thief-Acrobat' as part of the upgrade for that class rather than speaking of a blanket upgrade to the weapon.

The thrust of the thread is 'hey, devs...if you're going to put the staff in as a specialty weapon for the Thief-Acrobat, be sure to make it finessable'.

Gotcha. I can totally get behind that!

[GlassCannon]

Shining Crescents: Finessable slashing quarterstaff.

I see no reason to exclude standard q-staves from the Finesse table, and never verified whether they were or not(They rightly should be with STR of 12-14 or better). Thanks to my experience in Martial Arts I would say that Weapon Finesse would apply to ANY WEAPON, given the proper STR modifier. Example: 42 DEX 26 STR dwarf attempts to Finesse a Greataxe using his Quarterstaff and Axe proficiencies. STR Check: Modifier of +6 or better, Success! You will use your DEX modifier to make Attack rolls with your Greataxe.

Of course, this would be entirely too logical and not applicable in a universe wherein not many people use physics in combat, and the only ones that do have such a high INT that they don't melee. The Dex bonus would still apply in combat, but the Dodge AC portion would be moved into a defensive fighting role, and the greataxe would become an extension of the body, moving in unison with the dextrous wielder, who just happens to be jumping all around and using bodyweight and inertial levers...

[KristovK]

Just to play devil's advocate there are alot of weapons that an acrobat could also use while doing a low tumbling attack. Cut the femoral artery with a dagger, slice the Achilles tendon with a short sword, smash the kneecap with a light mace, cut off the foot with a sickle....and that's just the basic finessable weapons that all rogues have access to.

I've never tried SCA fighting before. When I lived out East I had friends that were involved in it and I heard the stories, but never made it out myself. If I had the opportunity I'd love to spend a weekend learning from a true classical duellist, maybe in a seminar or the like.

All I can say is if you can tumble with a shield strapped to one arm and a weapon in the other hand then your kung fu is much stronger than mine! (laughs!)

Tumbling with a shield just takes practice, and after a while you learn how to keep that arm 'out' and move the shield to provide constant coverage as you tumble...and even bash people with as you roll by

Oh, and it takes a LOT longer then a weekend to learn even the basics. I taught basic european sword, sword and board, and polearms, as well as teaching florentine and advanced techniques of the sword/shield/polearms. I can teach you enough in a few hours to NOT maim yourself the first time you swing a sword, but to actually teach you how to fight takes a while, teaching you how to fight effectively takes even longer, and that's IF you've already got some training in martial arts...teaching people who'd had NO training was always something I dreaded, it could take months to get them good enough to NOT accidently maim themselves or the guy standing next to them on the line.

[Vaypor]

I think if Q-staves will be a weapon of choice in the acrobat II features, then it should be finessable by rogues automatically. We get few enough feats as it is w/o having to swap out something we like/use all the time. So, I'm all for this being a rogue only feature also (a little rogue love here). Why we would get weapon choice that seemingly penalizes us by negating our weapon finesse (a very common feat among rogues, as we all know), confuses me.

If it's an enhancement-great. If it's free-even better If it's a feat-I'm discouraged from giving it serious use.

[DNDJESS]

Thanks to my experience in Martial Arts I would say that Weapon Finesse would apply to ANY WEAPON, given the proper STR modifier.

I'd take that one step further - shouldn't every weapon use the Dex modifier for the to-hit bonus? You're a martial artist and I'm sure you'll agree - how often do you hit a target because of your strength? If that were the case, you'd see bodybuilders in MLB batting around .900.

That is the problem with bringing real-life arguments into the fantasy scenario - you realize the entire system doesn't really make sense.

[Invalid_86]

I'd take that one step further - shouldn't every weapon use the Dex modifier for the to-hit bonus? You're a martial artist and I'm sure you'll agree - how often do you hit a target because of your strength? If that were the case, you'd see bodybuilders in MLB batting around .900.

That is the problem with bringing real-life arguments into the fantasy scenario - you realize the entire system doesn't really make sense.

No. Strength should determine the chance to hit in most circumstances.

Strength allows you to....

Recover faster, allowing you to take advantage of gaps that come up in an opponent's defenses

Swing faster, making your attacks harder to dodge

Power through your opponent's defenses, allowing the attacker to blow through a potential parry, press through a weapon lock, or strike through armor. Remember that very often an opponent will be damaged despite being hit on an armored part of the body.

Use weapons that aren't made for finesse more effectively. This includes many blunts, two handers, and polearms. These weapons are often made for brute force, not subtlety. Even a straightforward weapon like a longsword quickly dulls and loses its edge in combat, forcing the wielder to rely on arm strength more and more as fights go on.

Strength is also one of several factors that help to ward off fatigue, which quickly gnaws away your ability to hit.

Keep in mind to that many (if not all) finessable weapons still work very well if not better with raw muscle and guts behind them.