Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Oran_Lathor]

Heya All,

Before I begin, I would just like to say that this is not a complaint. I think the new rogue specialties look pretty good over all. What I would like to do, though, is suggest that - if acrobats are being given an attack speed increase with staves - that staves be made finessible.

I have no idea if there is a PnP precedent for this or not, but I feel it's necessary in order for the q-staff bonus to be worthwhile.

Take for example a hypothetical level 16 drow rogue with 16str and 34dex. The rogue has been using a rapier, with the drow enhancements, and a +5 heavy mithral shield. In switching to a staff, our hypothetical rogue will (as it stands now) lose 7 points of AC, 11 points of to-hit, 2 points of damage, 4 points of critcal range, and some blocking DR. In return he will gain a ~10% (?) attack speed increase.....


Now, that just seems like an awful lot to give up for some flavour. Granted some may still do it, and others will likely build (or have) Strength - based rogues who will like it.... but for me, acrobats are dextrous, and use q-staffs (apparently), and therefore staves should be made finessible.... I think, and stuff.

What say you guys?

[cdbd3rd]

Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

[Oran_Lathor]

Right, wasn't sure about the PnP mechanic as I haven't played since 2nd edition.... I would be okay with the new exotic weapon option also.

[DareDelvis]

Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

Or maybe an enhancement as a feat seems pretty cosly.

[roadkill525]

I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

[coolpenguin410]

I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

[roadkill525]

You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

not sure what the diference is, sept you specified non light. I'm used to the 3.5 rulebook where there are light weapons 1-handed then two handed weapons. but I;ll have to check into it, I dont' remember now if it specified that ya couldn't do it with light weapons.

but the 1 and a half sr dammage for weilding a weapon with 2 hands the same you get for weilding a two handed weapon, if that was the point ya was gettin at.

[MysticTheurge]

I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

[LeLoric]

The q-staff thing kinda confuses me unless they do make it finesse the whole enhancement line is based around dex I think it should provide the ability to finesse it if i were using it as a str based weapon its really no more than a great club aesthetically and way worse statistically.

btw I look at the q-staff feature of this and just think of Natt Gann in the Market

[Shade]

Seems logical to me that its not finessable.

I mean its a large 2handed blunt weapon.. To make it hurt someone you need to hit them pretty hard, else its not a leathal weapon at all, but just a toy... To work a weapon as finesse - you don't apply brute strength, and thus would not deal enough damage to get thru someones AC, and thus should not gain any to-hit bonus with the weapon.

Other finesse weapons let you get a to-hit bonus with them, because they really don't require much force to hit someone with, like a rapier.. Or that they are small and light enough that you can target the more vulnerable areas of a monster to hurt it, like a light mace. A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.

And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus, and power attack x2 + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.

That said I think its fine to have the attack speed boost with way of the acrobat. It's not that great, but its a cool addition, probably just for flavour.

The real powerful benefits of the enhancements are mainly the knockdown imunity, the 10% runspeed increase (like gaining that awesome barbarian ability for free without splashing a lvl is pretty powerful) and the xtra 2 uncanny dodges too.

There is one already finesseable quarterstaff in the game tho which will work very nicely with this enhancements: The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.

[MysticTheurge]

And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.

Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

[Shade]

Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

[MysticTheurge]

Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.

[Arianrhod]

If they implemented double weapons, q-staves should certainly be among them (and finessable, I suppose, if double weapons are in general). Wouldn't expect to see it until then, though.

[LeLoric]

Should also make it act as a double weapon and use the TWF feats too.

But all of that requires allot more tech that the game doesn't have that the devs aren't likely wanting to spend the time to add.

Then why give the bonus to a dex based class?

It's possible its being implemented already as part of the monk as a monk uses the q-staff in more of a finesse mode than a str based swing. I don;t think its humanly possible to use a staff in a flurry of blows type attack while using brute force to make sure it hits its definately more of a dextrous attack.

[Shade]

I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.

Heh, whos to say such a switch exists. If I was a coder I probably wouldn't design such a switch, seems like xtra work for something not needed at the time.

[Shade]

Then why give the bonus to a dex based class?

To add flavour.
The same reason barbarians get improved trap sense.. Or any number of almost-never used enhancements, there just there for variety. And this one is a bonus to an already great enhancement so cant hurt at all.

And there are allot of strength based rogues. The devs realise that and thus did not force everyone into a cookie cutter "dex based class" via enhancements. The same reason they cut out the rogue dextery IV enhancement.

A strength based THF dwarf rogue with the thf feats, power attack, etc and this enhancement would be great. Every enhancement doesn't have to cater perfectly to the standard halfling dex based rogue.

[LeLoric]

To add flavour.
The same reason barbarians get improved trap sense.. Or any number of almost-never used enhancements, there just there for variety. And this one is a bonus to an already great enhancement so cant hurt at all.

And there are allot of strength based rogues. The devs realise that and thus did not force everyone into a cookie cutter "dex based class" via enhancements. The same reason they cut out the rogue dextery IV enhancement.

A strength based THF dwarf rogue with the thf feats, power attack, etc and this enhancement would be great. Every enhancement doesn't have to cater perfectly to the standard halfling dex based rogue.

And I never disputed strength based rogues but this enhancements lends itself to a dex based build in all ways except the q-staff bonus.

Tier I requires tumble and balance which are dex based skills. The clickie gives +4 dex. Uncanny dodge gives a bonus to ac and reflex save both dex based.

Tier II much more of the same.

I am not saying its a bad enhancement i alrady have tier 1 on my rogue and will be able to use the qstaff somewhat as i have a 26 str but dex would be better and be more in tune with the entire enhancement line

[geoffhanna]

I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

I agree with MT. Otherwise you're creating the first finesse THF. Which I expect to have unintended balance consequences.

[BillBob]

I do support this idea to make Q-staves finessable and i don't believe it would be very overbalanced due to the 2 handed bonuses.

Firstly, ~28/28 Str/Dex based rogues with power attack can already utilize the 1.5 str bonus from Q-staves and will only obtain the ~10% alacrity from this enhancement. The approx. dps offered from this is not going to overshadow a high-crit range 2wf strength based rogue as is. (with full 2wf feats mind you )

Secondly, having Q-staves finessable will open up more options for the high dex rogue when it comes to weapon strategy. The Q-staves will offer an option of punching through DR of mobs, even with lower strengths due to the 1.5 str bonus. Punching through DR is pretty much the best utilization of the Q-staff (with the effects that go with it) as the restricted crit range prevents it from being an expedient medium to deliver the many crit-based effects.

As for Monks, i am not sure how this will affect their combat ability, be it pure or multi class. I'm sure there is a sweet spot somewhere between str and dex where you could possibly eek out some extra benefit.

"Rogues with Sticks!" :O