Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Invalid_86]

I answered your question, and the answer was - it doesn't matter. See above post.

Actually you didn't- you avoided it.

You aren't going to take real life arguments for something that does happen in real life. You avoid arguments based on the sourcebooks. So I'm guessing you just want to disagree to disagree- at which point I am wasting my time.

Fantasy games still follow their own internal logic, it's what holds them together. "It's a fantasy world" is not an argument when what is being presented has no basis in those rules or by default in reality.

[Delacroix21]

There is one already finesseable quarterstaff in the game tho which will work very nicely with this enhancements: The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.

NEVER count raid loot as a fix or solution to a problem.

[DNDJESS]

Actually I did sufficiently answer your question, but you couldn't put 2 and 2 together:

But I will humor you and fight fantasy with fantasy. Where in the DnD 3.5 rules does it say that thief acrobats get to attack faster with a quarterstaff simply because they are thief acrobats?

Can you please direct me to the page in the 3.5 rulebook that discusses Enhancements............

There is absolutely no basis in the 3.5 rulebook for enhancements, so how can you possibly presume what this enhancement can or cannot do? If the Devs decide to make Qstaffs finessable upon purchasing this enhancement, there is no basis for argument against it based on the 3.5 ruleset since enhancements do not exist in that ruleset.

You apparently missed the part where a quarterstaff is only about six feet long (about 4 feet for a small character)- a useless length for pole vaulting and of dubious use as a tightrope balance.

Can you please explain how I buy a 6' long staff from a tall character, and when it is given to my small character, it becomes 4'? Is my character hacking off the end of a magical staff with a hacksaw when I'm not looking?

[Invalid_86]

Actually I did sufficiently answer your question, but you couldn't put 2 and 2 together:

There is absolutely no basis in the 3.5 rulebook for enhancements, so how can you possibly presume what this enhancement can or cannot do? If the Devs decide to make Qstaffs finessable upon purchasing this enhancement, there is no basis for argument against it based on the 3.5 ruleset since enhancements do not exist in that ruleset.

D'oh! You didn't realize that a Thief Acrobat in DnD is a prestige class, and that class does not get a quarterstaff bonus?

Can you please explain how I buy a 6' long staff from a tall character, and when it is given to my small character, it becomes 4'? Is my character hacking off the end of a magical staff with a hacksaw when I'm not looking?

Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

[MysticTheurge]

D'oh! You didn't realize that a Thief Acrobat in DnD is a prestige class, and that class does not get a quarterstaff bonus?

Doh! You didn't realize that Thief Acrobat in DDO is an enhancement, and that enhancement is only based on the D&D prestige class of the same name?

[Invalid_86]

Doh! You didn't realize that Thief Acrobat in DDO is an enhancement, and that enhancement is only based on the D&D prestige class of the same name?

Thanks Mystic for pointing out the earlier point that I made- that thief acrobats have no earlier precedent for having
a bonus when using a quarterstaff.

Thus the oddity of the devs choosing to give this bonus when there is no DnD reason for it, real life reason for it,
and despite quarterstaffs being basically a broken weapon in the game. Very curious!

[MysticTheurge]

when there is no... real life reason for it

That is, apparently, quite debatable.

[DNDJESS]

Thus the oddity of the devs choosing to give this bonus when there is no DnD reason for it, real life reason for it, and despite quarterstaffs being basically a broken weapon in the game. Very curious!

They probably did it because even they have now accepted that jump and tumble are useless, and nobody would get the enhancement if that was all it entailed. They also realized that Qstaff was useless. So to kill two birds with one stone, they added the two together in an attempt to make both of them useful. But without being finessable, both of them are still pretty much useless, which is why players are asking for it.

Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

Maybe I was a bit unclear. I'm referring to when a halfling player buys a staff from a human player. Suddenly the 6' staff one character was using becomes a 4' staff in the hands of another. Any explanation on that?

[Invalid_86]

That is, apparently, quite debatable.

Not really. There has yet to be an example of when a quarterstaff is a consistantly preferable weapon when tumbling/jumping/balancing over any other weapon. Note I said quarterstaff- not a pole- there is a difference.

But I am game. Surely I am not the only martial artist here who has practiced ukemi while carrying a staff. Anyone else done so and found it to be handier than, say, a one handed finessable weapon like a knife or short sword? So much so that there should be a big benefit to an acrobat who uses one?

They probably did it because even they have now accepted that jump and tumble are useless, and nobody would get the enhancement if that was all it entailed. They also realized that Qstaff was useless. So to kill two birds with one stone, they added the two together in an attempt to make both of them useful. But without being finessable, both of them are still pretty much useless, which is why players are asking for it.

Note that I did not say that a staff should not be finessable- quite the contrary I pointed out that there was rules to be found that showed that the off end of the staff is a light weapon. Go back and look at my earlier post.

As implemented right now quarterstaffs are pretty useless to acrobats and finesse fighters in general, and unless the dual weapon rules are introduced they will continue to be messed up. that's part of the mystery as to why you'd encourage use of this weapon.

Jump and Tumble? Well I'd be inclined to say that instead of treating the symptoms they should look at why these skills are questionably useful. That's a real fix.

Maybe I was a bit unclear. I'm referring to when a halfling player buys a staff from a human player. Suddenly the 6' staff one character was using becomes a 4' staff in the hands of another. Any explanation on that?

Yes. DDO is missing the small character weapon rules, which are a big counterbalance to the awesomeness of halflings. Right now halflings have all of the perks of being small but only one of the drawbacks- reduced weight carrying.

[MysticTheurge]

Not really.

Actually, yeah.

Given that you think one thing and many other people seem to think something else, it meets all the criteria for "debatable."

[Invalid_86]

Actually, yeah.

Given that you think one thing and many other people seem to think something else, it meets all the criteria for "debatable."

We did have people mistaking a quarterstaff for a pole, and people decribing effects from a quarterstaff that could come from a variety of weapons. That's just confusion.

Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?

Not much of a debate here.

[DNDJESS]

We did have people mistaking a quarterstaff for a pole, and people decribing effects from a quarterstaff that could come from a variety of weapons. That's just confusion.

Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?

Not much of a debate here.

The problem is, DDO has been around for over 2 years, and how many new weapons have been added? I can think of 2, and both are thrown weapons with no new attack animations. So if they ever actually add new weapons, I would expect poles to be very low on the list. For purposes of this game, I'd rather think of poles and staffs as the same item, since it makes more sense than thinking poles just don't exist.

[Angelus_dead]

Oh and did we mention the guy who thought it was right because he saw it in a picture?
Not much of a debate here.

True. It's not much of a debate- your responses are so irrelevant to the positions advanced by your opponents, that they don't count as part of the same conversation at all.

What part of "Attacking with staves is part of the theme of a fantasy acrobat" do you contest?

[Invalid_86]

The problem is, DDO has been around for over 2 years, and how many new weapons have been added? I can think of 2, and both are thrown weapons with no new attack animations. So if they ever actually add new weapons, I would expect poles to be very low on the list. For purposes of this game, I'd rather think of poles and staffs as the same item, since it makes more sense than thinking poles just don't exist.

Poles aren't weapons. They could be used to attack- if DDO added in the improvised weapons rules.

True. It's not much of a debate- your responses are so irrelevant to the positions advanced by your opponents, that they don't count as part of the same conversation at all.

What part of "Attacking with staves is part of the theme of a fantasy acrobat" do you contest?

Go back and reread my first post in this thread.

So far the only "debates" put against me have been based on misinformation and coincidence.

Say.....Acrobats are thieves (or rogues, if you prefer) and part of their theme is knifing people in the back. By your logic doesn't that mean they should get an attack bonus with daggers? Hey the pictures of these guys even have them carrying daggers! They could even make a slicing attack with them while somersaulting so they must be an acrobat specialist weapon! Who cares if it doesn't say that they get a bonus in the 3.5 rules lets give it to them anyways.

That has about as much foundation as the quarterstaff arguments. Plus daggers actually work right in the game.

[Gornin]

RR - I agree that performing tumbling (ukemi) with bo/jo staff is more difficult than with, say Arnis/Escrima sticks, or any of the small blades/swords, but I am sure as a martial artist you have seen those who have specialized in the staff forms who do some pretty awesome feats. I am also sure you have heard how staff wielders used to defeat sword weilders regularly. A six foot staff should allow a trained person to increase his jump distance and heigth, and allow a small bonus to balance.

Just so you know I have studied some Judo and Ju Jitsu which I am sure you know at least teaches the basics of how to take a fall and regain your feet quickly, and to lessen a blow by using basic tumbling techniques. And Ju Jitsu does have some staff techniques.

I think that is the thinking here, and I somewhat agree. This PrC should indicate specialized and focused training, and one of the bonuses should be able to use a staff in an unusual way. I have always felt that DnD limited the way a person engages in combat by the weapon they use instead of the form they learned. Many of the medium weapons can be used in form that stresses agility and quickness rather than strength. The staff falls into that category, and I am much more familiar with those techniques and feel they should apply for this PrC.

[Dailus]

I have been watching this thread pretty closely and despite what people may assume there is a precedent for quarterstaffs in D&D. A 1st edition thief could become a thief-acrobat at 6th level in 1st edition AD&D. If memory serves the character must have a 15 strength and a 16 dex. Notice they had to not only be strong, but agile as well. Among their abilities gained were the use of the quarter staff and lasso and the ability to pole vault and tight rope walk. Granted this is a pretty old edition, but it does set a precedent for acrobats in D&D. Information is given from memory so please correct me if I am wrong.

-Dailus

[Gornin]

I have been watching this thread pretty closely and despite what people may assume there is a precedent for quarterstaffs in D&D. A 1st edition thief could become a thief-acrobat at 6th level in 1st edition AD&D. If memory serves the character must have a 15 strength and a 16 dex. Notice they had to not only be strong, but agile as well. Among their abilities gained were the use of the quarter staff and lasso and the ability to pole vault and tight rope walk. Granted this is a pretty old edition, but it does set a precedent for acrobats in D&D. Information is given from memory so please correct me if I am wrong.

-Dailus

Unearthed Arcana from 1st ed had this along with the Barb and Cavalier. I don't remember the stat requirements, but the rest of the info is accurate.

[DNDJESS]

Reread the rules about weapon and character sizes.

Basically if a halfling or gnome buys a quarterstaff made for small characters it would be about 4 feet tall
and do d4 damage.

Re-read my post a couple times, and tell me if this response really has anything to do with what was discussed.

[KristovK]

Unearthed Arcana from 1st ed had this along with the Barb and Cavalier. I don't remember the stat requirements, but the rest of the info is accurate.

It's spot on, and the class actually costs you skills, they max at 5th level and don't get better, this was a more combat oriented take on the Thief and it prized Str as much as Dex.

Now, keep in mind, that's the origin of the prestige class and it's changed a lot since that time. Even so, the staff in PnP has always been a Str based weapon, never Dex, so making it finessable has always been a house rule, and usually only in houses which contained active martial artists We had house rules for Traveller that would have really surprised the designers, bunch of military and ex-military types who knew the weapons inside and out and laughed at the rules on them. Keep in mind, most of the PnP rules for D&D were created by people without any training in the melee arts, so they don't know what is or isn't possible and go by what they THINK works. The quarterstaff is a great example..it's a weapon that's both str and dex based, depends on who's using it and how they are using at the moment. You can strike targets as precisely with it as you would a dagger or rapier and you can use it to power through defenses and knock people flying, just depends on what you want to do and what level of training you've had.

[Invalid_86]

It's spot on, and the class actually costs you skills, they max at 5th level and don't get better, this was a more combat oriented take on the Thief and it prized Str as much as Dex.

Well it took away some skills and gave you some new ones. Unfortunately they tended to be the skills that the rest of the party wanted a thief to have!

In 1st edition the class did give you the option of learning to use a staff but you had to spend a proficiency slot on it and gained no other bonuses with it. In fact the only combat bonus the class gave you was a bonus when making unarmed pummelling attacks!

Note too that in the section about pole vaulting it specifically mentions that the pole being used had to be at least four feet taller than the character, meaning staffs were right out.