Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Invalid_86]

Tumbling with a shield just takes practice, and after a while you learn how to keep that arm 'out' and move the shield to provide constant coverage as you tumble...and even bash people with as you roll by

Oh, and it takes a LOT longer then a weekend to learn even the basics. I taught basic european sword, sword and board, and polearms, as well as teaching florentine and advanced techniques of the sword/shield/polearms. I can teach you enough in a few hours to NOT maim yourself the first time you swing a sword, but to actually teach you how to fight takes a while, teaching you how to fight effectively takes even longer, and that's IF you've already got some training in martial arts...teaching people who'd had NO training was always something I dreaded, it could take months to get them good enough to NOT accidently maim themselves or the guy standing next to them on the line.

Oh man I can't even pretend to master anything in a weekend. I'd be happy with a bit more practical experience and exposure to new attacking theories- that never hurts!

[Invalid_86]

I think if Q-staves will be a weapon of choice in the acrobat II features, then it should be finessable by rogues automatically. We get few enough feats as it is w/o having to swap out something we like/use all the time. So, I'm all for this being a rogue only feature also (a little rogue love here). Why we would get weapon choice that seemingly penalizes us by negating our weapon finesse (a very common feat among rogues, as we all know), confuses me.

If it's an enhancement-great. If it's free-even better If it's a feat-I'm discouraged from giving it serious use.

See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

[DNDJESS]

See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

But the thing you're just not understanding is, there has to be a good reason to choose the acrobat ability, and jump&tumble just isn't enough. If you don't like this idea, by all means, make some other suggestions to add to the acrobat ability to make it worth spending the enhancement points on it.

[SableShadow]

See if it is finessable it should be able to be used that way by anyone. It's hardly an acrobat ability, and there still is no reason why they should get an extra bonus on top of what anyone else would get.

I see a bonus with staves as being a little extra incentive, and maybe a touch of flavor to motivate folks to take the Way of the Thief-Acrobat.

One of the reasons I've been bringing up cheesy (well, super ultra mega cheesy) martial arts flicks in this thread is to highlight the fantasy aspects of the game...there are terribly few martial arts flicks that don't make a student of same wince, yet there's an audience for them. I view staves-for-acrobats in the same light, and am willing to suspend my disbelief...well, as long as they are finessable, since adding a boost to a non-finessable weapon, then giving it to the rogue class would be, in a word, silly.

Does it make a lot of practical sense? Nah.

The more tumbling/jumping/running you do, the more it makes sense to use lighter weapons than a staff. I'd personally love a boost to daggers, and daggers only, but I'm told that's a fetish of mine. Or, better, dump the weapon boost and bump the tumble/jump/balance bonus to +4, or even raise the bonus for Showtime to +20(!!!) for the second degree of Thief-Acrobat.

From a practical perspective, I'm ready to take anything the devs give, and if they've already started down the staff road, then I ask them to just be sure that a Thief-Acrobat can use a staff with either str or dex...in a word, make them finessable.


Oh, and ... Gymkata!

[Invalid_86]

But the thing you're just not understanding is, there has to be a good reason to choose the acrobat ability, and jump&tumble just isn't enough. If you don't like this idea, by all means, make some other suggestions to add to the acrobat ability to make it worth spending the enhancement points on it.

You forgot the movement bonus- which is a nice perk, and immunity to knockdown effects- which I would absolutely love to have, and can't really get elsewhere.

But really acrobat isn't a combat perk class (never has been)- it's one you take because it's fun.

Oh, and ... Gymkata!

Oh the humanity! Think of the children! (children rolling their Sanity Checks....!)

[SableShadow]

But really acrobat isn't a combat perk class (never has been)- it's one you take because it's fun.

True enough, though I think the devs are shooting for a certain % of players to pick up the Way of enhancements...someone there apparently thinks it isn't sweet enough to get the numbers they want.

I'll still be taking it (probably) when it comes out, regardless of staff or no staff (the increase in ShowTime was the deal maker for me...the added speed and balance are just bonus). It would, though, annoy my sense of symmetry if it included bonuses to a non-finessable weapon. I'd want them to either make it finessable or take it out entirely.

Oh the humanity! Think of the children! (children rolling their Sanity Checks....!)

Muhuhuahahahaha! Soon my army of pommel horse wielding, acrobatic, Lovecraftian cultists shall be complete!

[DNDJESS]

No. Strength should determine the chance to hit in most circumstances.

Strength allows you to....

Recover faster, allowing you to take advantage of gaps that come up in an opponent's defenses

Swing faster, making your attacks harder to dodge

Strong does not = fast. Think of the big, dumb, lumbering ogre. He is very strong, but not very fast. When you put that much strength behind a swing, it actually takes you longer to recover. Making a more controlled attack would allow you to recover faster and hit more often. Yes, I agree strength would help, but you'll hit more often if you're dextrous than you will if you're just strong.

Power through your opponent's defenses, allowing the attacker to blow through a potential parry, press through a weapon lock, or strike through armor. Remember that very often an opponent will be damaged despite being hit on an armored part of the body.

I would agree with you here, except for the fact that there's no such thing as parry or weapon lock in DDO. Maybe that would be a better benefit for Acrobats - the ability to parry? As for striking through armor, I partially agree with you, but you still have to hit the target to overcome their armor. And if you are damaging them through their armor, shouldn't every piece of armor have a natural damage reduction associated with it?

Use weapons that aren't made for finesse more effectively. This includes many blunts, two handers, and polearms. These weapons are often made for brute force, not subtlety. Even a straightforward weapon like a longsword quickly dulls and loses its edge in combat, forcing the wielder to rely on arm strength more and more as fights go on.

Keep in mind to that many (if not all) finessable weapons still work very well if not better with raw muscle and guts behind them.

With the exception of ranged weapons, all weapons are more effective with strength. But again, it's because you'll do more damage when you hit, not because you'll hit more often.

Strength is also one of several factors that help to ward off fatigue, which quickly gnaws away your ability to hit.

Wouldn't that have as much or more to do with endurance i.e. constitution than strength? But yes, strength would be a factor.

If you think about your 'to hit' bonus, there are several things that would effect it more than strength. For example: Intelligence - spotting weaknesses in their armor or defenses. Wisdom - knowing from experience where the weaknesses are in certain mobs or types of armor. Dexterity - aiming and successfully hitting their weak spots.

[Invalid_86]

Strong does not = fast. Think of the big, dumb, lumbering ogre. He is very strong, but not very fast. When you put that much strength behind a swing, it actually takes you longer to recover. Making a more controlled attack would allow you to recover faster and hit more often. Yes, I agree strength would help, but you'll hit more often if you're dextrous than you will if you're just strong.

Strong also does not equal slow. Think of a strong man swinging a sledgehammer compared to a weaker man. The strong man can do it faster, with more control for a longer period of time.

The controlled quick attacks you describe is what weapon finesse lets you do.

I would agree with you here, except for the fact that there's no such thing as parry or weapon lock in DDO. Maybe that would be a better benefit for Acrobats - the ability to parry? As for striking through armor, I partially agree with you, but you still have to hit the target to overcome their armor. And if you are damaging them through their armor, shouldn't every piece of armor have a natural damage reduction associated with it?

Actually there is parries and weapon locks. That's part of the give and take of a combat round. What, you thought that having 1 attack per round literally meant you swung once in the round then just stood there?

In this regard the animations in the game are incorrect. They should have shown feints/ducking and weaving/whatever along with the attack, rather than swing swing swing. Then as our BAB's increased we would simply get more efficient and cut out some of the baggage, like how it works in DnD.

DnD is alot like a movie battle scene as regards to fighting. You will see a big battle, and in the background you see all of the grunts crashing weapons together alot, hesitating, swinging too wide, whatever. Sure they hit but they can do better. Then pan to the hero moving through the grunts. Quick block, stab, move on. Duck, come underneath, slash, move on. Sidestep, hack out knee, move on. Is the Hero literally swinging 3-4 times faster than everyone else? No, he is simply more efficient.

With the exception of ranged weapons, all weapons are more effective with strength. But again, it's because you'll do more damage when you hit, not because you'll hit more often.

Really? Because it is strength that lets you push a dagger through chainmail links, or bash shoulder armor with a mace so hard that it breaks the victim's collarbone.

Technically with some ranged weapons you should also get some sort of a bonus to hit from strength. A strong character can use a bow with a higher draw strength- which means an arrow hits with more impact and is more likely to pierce armor or a shield. Ditto with thrown weapons, plus the thrown object will travel faster, making it harder to dodge.

Wouldn't that have as much or more to do with endurance i.e. constitution than strength? But yes, strength would be a factor.

If you think about your 'to hit' bonus, there are several things that would effect it more than strength. For example: Intelligence - spotting weaknesses in their armor or defenses. Wisdom - knowing from experience where the weaknesses are in certain mobs or types of armor. Dexterity - aiming and successfully hitting their weak spots.

Alot of that instinctiveness is covered in your BAB. Good fighters begin to flow better and naturally spot weaknesses better.

Not to be rude but have you ever actually trained with weapons?

[DNDJESS]

Not to be rude but have you ever actually trained with weapons?

To be honest, no I haven't. So I guess I'll admit I was completely wrong about everything and have no clue what I"m talking about. I'll just trust your experience for what it takes to be an expert with weapons - spend 99% of my time in the gym. After all, I don't need hand-eye coordination to hit my target if I'm strong enough. And intelligence and wisdom have no bearing on overcoming someone's defense (which makes me confused about why boxing is called the 'sweet science', but hey, what do I know?). All I have to do is make sure I get strong enough, and I'll never miss, right?

[KristovK]

To be honest, no I haven't. So I guess I'll admit I was completely wrong about everything and have no clue what I"m talking about. I'll just trust your experience for what it takes to be an expert with weapons - spend 99% of my time in the gym. After all, I don't need hand-eye coordination to hit my target if I'm strong enough. And intelligence and wisdom have no bearing on overcoming someone's defense (which makes me confused about why boxing is called the 'sweet science', but hey, what do I know?). All I have to do is make sure I get strong enough, and I'll never miss, right?

Go find a piece of rebar, 1/2" diameter, about 3' long, and start swinging it. Start off with just a simple one handed swing from right to left(or vice versa if left handed) clear across your body and see how long you can swing it as fast as possible. Now, once you notice it hurting your arm/wrist(which probably won't take long), stop and rest a bit. Now, repeat this with a slight twist, swing halfway across your body and whip it straight back on a reverse course. In a very short time you'll understand the purpose of this exercise, which is exactly what this is, one I use myself and that I made all my students use as well.

It does indeed require more then just eye-hand coordination to use a weapon in combat effectively, you need the strength to alter it's direction of travel instantly and redirect it instantly and hit the target with enough force to do damage. Lighter weapons this isn't as much of a problem as larger/heavier weapons, daggers are incredibly easy to use, while a long sword or quarterstaff takes a lot more power to alter the direction of travel radically, more mass involved.

It takes no great intelligence or wisdom to look at someone in armor and see the gaping holes, which is what you'll see in plate armors. Ring mail and studded leather, rather obvious where the weakness again, you can visually see them. Hardened leather or soft leather, again, you can visually see the weak points. Chain is harder to find weak points in, because it's weak point IS the armor usually, it's only effective against slashing weapons, so you instead stab or using a blunt object, chain doesn't help against impact damage, just cuts. Depending on the type of chain, there could also be rather visually obvious weak points, same as in the plate types, depends on how it's made. Same with boxing I might add, an opponent's weaknesses and defenses become apparent fairly quickly, being able to capitalize on them is another matter, as they might not be something you personally can exploit due to your own weaknesses and strengths. I've yet to meet a genius boxer, nor hear of one, how about you?

[Invalid_86]

On a side note there are also several feats in DnD that give more combat options to smart warriors.

[SableShadow]

DDO (and D&D) use heavily abstracted combat models; that's part of the reason why 'real life' arguments are somewhat suspect, no matter how well intentioned...just as trying to use the DDO (and D&D) models to illustrate a 'real life' argument will also be suspect.

It's really only about how much 'reality' is needed in the system to get the players to suspend disbelief.

[Rav'n]

Quote
True enough, though I think the devs are shooting for a certain % of players to pick up the Way of enhancements...someone there apparently thinks it isn't sweet enough to get the numbers they want.

I re-spec'd my rogue BASED on the Roleplay I wanted for my Rogue. I call him my "Chinese Acrobat". Does the Thief/Acrobat currently give me any bonuses in quests? Probably not. But now when I tumble thru a Trap... I jump and Roll. Which LOOKS absolutely Groovilicious!

[Invalid_86]

Go find a piece of rebar, 1/2" diameter, about 3' long, and start swinging it. Start off with just a simple one handed swing from right to left(or vice versa if left handed) clear across your body and see how long you can swing it as fast as possible. Now, once you notice it hurting your arm/wrist(which probably won't take long), stop and rest a bit. Now, repeat this with a slight twist, swing halfway across your body and whip it straight back on a reverse course. In a very short time you'll understand the purpose of this exercise, which is exactly what this is, one I use myself and that I made all my students use as well.

My shoulders hurt just thinking about this one!

Many martial arts also take an interest in learning about using a bokken, which is in effect training to use a
katana except you use a wooden sword. In this every movement should use your whole body's strength (yep I said
strength) as one when striking. Many experienced martial artists will spend some time working on this art- just to find
themselves with sore shoulders the next day! And that's from swinging what's basically a stick!

I know when I first started my shoulders were stiff for two days. But then again maybe I'm just getting old! (laughs)

Quote
I re-spec'd my rogue BASED on the Roleplay I wanted for my Rogue. I call him my "Chinese Acrobat". Does the Thief/Acrobat currently give me any bonuses in quests? Probably not. But now when I tumble thru a Trap... I jump and Roll. Which LOOKS absolutely Groovilicious!

Now that's why playing thief acrobats is cool! They don't need a made up staff bonus.

[Rav'n]

As an FYI.... Darex can be found 'backflipping' over the tables in the Everfull Flagon. Why? Because it's Cool! That and he has his hat out ...pan handling his skills.... ... working Oh so hard for a hand out!

[roadkill525]

I don;t know... some of the arguments only go so far.

quarterstaffs are light, and they weight is held in 2 hands. take that swinging the metal stick exersize... now use 2 hands to swing it... it just got alot easier. extend the length to what 4'? yse yer offhand as a pivot point for the stick. doesn;t take much effort, I've no practice in martial arts, pretty **** weak to boot, least compared to eyr average person in the time period we saposta be playing in. and I have no problems playing around with a quarter staff, swiging full out, thrusting full power... or trying to change direction with it. quarterstaffs are 2 handed weapons... but they are not swong like a greatsword.

[Emili]

Remember any weapon in the off-hand is only 1/2 x str mod damage... in the primary hand is 1 x str mod damage and in both hands is 1 1/2 x str mod damage... Personally I can see where a staff may seem a tad difficult as it is actually a double weapon.

DDO varies from core rules in terms of weapons quite a bit:

Off the top of my head weapons work like below in DnD core.

Light weapon:
Many people I think do not understand what a Light weapon is by comaprison to a one-handed weapon... all light weapons may be used in the off hand or the primary hand - in the primary hand you get full str bonus to damage or in the off-hand then half... The thing about a light weapon is you cannot use it in two-hands at all...

One-Handed Weapon:
A one-handed weapon can be in the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, half Str bonus if it’s used in the off hand. A one-handed weapon may be used with two hands for one and a half times Str bonus damages. The exception is Rapier - which is always a one-handed weapon <- this I believe is one of the reasons they add it into the finesse feat weapon list.

Two-Handed Weapon:
Always required two hands and thus get one and a half times the Str bonus damages.

A word on arrows... those that hit a target are destroyed, while those which miss are destroyed or just get lost 50&#37; of the time.

A word on Pole-arms... A spear for instance has a reach of ten feet and may be used to hit an opponent in front of you but not directly completely adjacent to you.

A word on exotics:
Bastard swords... anyone with martial weapon proficiency can use them in two hands - no penalty. The exotic weapon feat allows those who take it to weild the weapon in one hand should they wish..

Dwarven axe... again like the bastard sword this is treated like a big axe and anyone with martial weapon proficency can use it in two hands with no penalty. The feat allows you to weild it in one hand if you wish. Dwarves with martial weapon proficency basically get this feat free because they of course they're dwarves.

Urgrosh... again like the dwarven axe and bastard sword martial weapon proficency is required to use it ... but you need the proficency to treat it like you're fighting with two weapons instead of one (it's a double weapon). Those without the exotic feat may only make one attack instead of treated it like a double weapon... and of course dwarves get this proficiency if they have martial proficency.

Double weapons ... are not treated like TWF in DnD either.

Quarterstaff
A quarterstaff is a double weapon. You can fight with it as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. A creature wielding a quarterstaff in one hand can’t use it as a double weapon—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.

[DNDJESS]

DDO (and D&D) use heavily abstracted combat models; that's part of the reason why 'real life' arguments are somewhat suspect, no matter how well intentioned...just as trying to use the DDO (and D&D) models to illustrate a 'real life' argument will also be suspect.

It's really only about how much 'reality' is needed in the system to get the players to suspend disbelief.

Well said. The arguments made against such things as finessable staffs just baffle me. If your imagination so limited that you can't deal with the idea of a staff being swung in a dextrous manner, you need to find a new hobby. If you can't accept the concept of a finessable staff, but you're OK with a ring that can make you fall like a feather and drop 50' without hurting yourself, or a necklace that can allow you to stay underwater for an infinite amount of time, you seriously need to seek professional help.

[Rav'n]

I'll be a little more diplomatic than the above poster...

Like many of you who frequent this board, I study and have studied various forms of Martial combat. I have to say, if you've never seen an Eastern Martial Artist with a Quarter staff.... you're missing something. UN-FREAKn-BELIEVABLE!! is all I can say! The Dexterity used is amazing!

To call them an Artist is an Understatement.

kk... going back to my "Table Flips" in the Everful Flagon on 'Argo' please come by and throw some loose coin, Vorpals, +3 Tomes... what ever you can spare into the +2 Intel Cap!

[Invalid_86]

Well said. The arguments made against such things as finessable staffs just baffle me. If your imagination so limited that you can't deal with the idea of a staff being swung in a dextrous manner, you need to find a new hobby. If you can't accept the concept of a finessable staff, but you're OK with a ring that can make you fall like a feather and drop 50' without hurting yourself, or a necklace that can allow you to stay underwater for an infinite amount of time, you seriously need to seek professional help.

Ah I see you are still confused about staff combat in 3.5, and think that having a high Dex does not benefit a staff user. Not so.

A staff is a simple weapon. Pretty much anyone can pick it up and swing it two handed like a big pinata stick. Not subtle but a good whack to the head from a gnarled staff will knock some sense into someone.

Then there are the dextrous types, who with training can unlock to real strength of a quarterstaff- use as a dual weapon. If you have a high enough dexterity you can take the two weapon fighting chain of feats and apply them to the staff, gaining almost twice as many attacks per round with the weapon. That is nothing to sneeze at. Of course you need a high dex- a 15-19 depending on how far you want to go- and the desire to master this ability and spend the feats on it. This is the cool twirling lashing out with both ends looks really great in the movies staff wielder.

Thief acrobats, like any class with a high Dex, can fall into the second category. But the majority of characters who pick up a staff will end up just using it as a two handed simple weapon and just club people with it.

You are simply mistaking "Weapon Finesse" for "Two Weapon Fighting".