Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Oran_Lathor]

Heya All,

Before I begin, I would just like to say that this is not a complaint. I think the new rogue specialties look pretty good over all. What I would like to do, though, is suggest that - if acrobats are being given an attack speed increase with staves - that staves be made finessible.

I have no idea if there is a PnP precedent for this or not, but I feel it's necessary in order for the q-staff bonus to be worthwhile.

Take for example a hypothetical level 16 drow rogue with 16str and 34dex. The rogue has been using a rapier, with the drow enhancements, and a +5 heavy mithral shield. In switching to a staff, our hypothetical rogue will (as it stands now) lose 7 points of AC, 11 points of to-hit, 2 points of damage, 4 points of critcal range, and some blocking DR. In return he will gain a ~10% (?) attack speed increase.....


Now, that just seems like an awful lot to give up for some flavour. Granted some may still do it, and others will likely build (or have) Strength - based rogues who will like it.... but for me, acrobats are dextrous, and use q-staffs (apparently), and therefore staves should be made finessible.... I think, and stuff.

What say you guys?

[cdbd3rd]

Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

[Oran_Lathor]

Right, wasn't sure about the PnP mechanic as I haven't played since 2nd edition.... I would be okay with the new exotic weapon option also.

[DareDelvis]

Hmmm....

There is a certain amount of precedent in this, given the actual use of a staff is more agility than brute force. (but they still hurt. a lot.)


This would fly in the face of PnP game mechanix, but DDO is no stranger to that....

I'll /sign up in behind this idea.


If it doesn't make it as a mainstream idea - perhaps offer 'finessed quarterstaff' as an exotic weapon choice?

Or maybe an enhancement as a feat seems pretty cosly.

[roadkill525]

I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

[coolpenguin410]

I never understood why quarterstaffs and spears were not finessable weapons. someone useing strength to swing a quarterstaff like a great club? you could but its the same thing as swinging a rapier like a greatsword.

thats another thing... I don;t know if it already does or not but if ya useing a 1 handed weapon with nothing in yer offhand the game should have you use it 2 handed, in pnp ya could use any 1 handed weapon 2 handed if you wished.

You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

[roadkill525]

You can use any non-light, one handed weapon in two hands for 1-1/2 STR bonus to damage. A bit of a difference there.

Quarterstaves should be possible to finesse if used as two weapons. You would take the same penalties as using a one handed weapon and a light weapon in your off-hand. I have been planning on designing a quarterstaff specc'ed monk when mod 7 is released.

I like the new Theif-Acrobat II enhancement, but I'm a bit confused on the quarterstaff thing. Also, if you become immune to knockdown effects, balance no longer has a use. Why keep giving it a bonus?

not sure what the diference is, sept you specified non light. I'm used to the 3.5 rulebook where there are light weapons 1-handed then two handed weapons. but I;ll have to check into it, I dont' remember now if it specified that ya couldn't do it with light weapons.

but the 1 and a half sr dammage for weilding a weapon with 2 hands the same you get for weilding a two handed weapon, if that was the point ya was gettin at.

[SableShadow]

/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata!

[Invalid_86]

Oh no! Gymkata! (rolls Sanity check!)

[DNDJESS]

/signed

Finesse staves.

Real tumbling attacks would be nice. Real dual-weapons would be nice. Making staves finessable in the hands of a thief-acrobat is a nice little work around. Heck, even then the only real advantage of stacking up on staves is to spare pack space or perhaps a feat (switch out twf + itwf)...you save some space, spare some feats, lose some dps (dual rapier + ss rogues are going to be doing more).

Gymkata!

I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.

[SableShadow]

I'm not sure I agree with the thought of saving feats with this. Even if the staff was made finessable, it should be effected by either TWF or THF feats depending on how it's implemented, so the feats spent would potentially be the same.

Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents.

I'm just saying it's maybe easier to just give the speed bonus (currently planned) and make it finessable...done! Otherwise, there's sorting out some kind of mechanic to switch it from one to the other. Don't know how complicated that might be, but haven't seen anything like it in ddo (yet). *shrug*


Oh, and...Gymkata!

[DNDJESS]

Sure, I agree. Ideally (imho, ymmv, void where prohibited), a stave should be finessable, but handle as if you were dual-wielding two smaller weapons *or* non-finessable and handle as if you were wielding a two-hander. User chooses. Been wanting that ever since I picked up Shining Cresents.

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

[Invalid_86]

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

It's almost trying to put a square peg...into a round hole! The mystery lives on!

Oh, and...Gymkata!

Aaaaah!!! It's everywhere! Why is that guy karate fighting ninjas on a pommel horse?????
(rolls another Sanity Check!)

But wait....he didn't use a quarterstaff.........maybe it's a sign?

[SableShadow]

The problem is, you're still making an inferior weapon. If you use it as a 2-hander and it's not finessable, it's still greatly inferior to any other 2-hander. If you use it as if dual weilding, you lose the versatility of switching your off-hand to either a different weapon or a shield, and you're gaining......nothing.

Sure. I said before, you only get pack space and maybe a feat or two. Heck, make it finessable as a 2-hander *and* a double-weapon, user's choice. It'd be awesome on the Reaver staff, but other than that it'd be sub-par compared to other weapons available.

If you need the feats to make it viable, then the only thing you're saving is pack space. Hence, just make it finessable, keep the speed increase, and be done. Die hard stave wielders (stavers? stavenators?) can save a couple feats, lose some dps, and save a bit of pack space.

And, RR? This one's for you.


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Gymkata!