Acrobat II and Q-staves

[Deaths_ward]

I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

Occasionally I see your posts on the boards and they just stand out and say "C'mere devs got something useful for you to work on." This is one of those.

I say that because Way of the Thief-Acrobat II grants a bonus that doesn't currently fit in with the rest of its abilities (not saying it isn't already a great enhancement, or that it isn't powerful in its own right.) and using the first tier of its line to sync its bonus up would be useful.

For all the people crying out that a 1 + 1/2 STR damage weapon would be to powerful as a finesse weapon, um.....Dex builds generally don't have the greatest strength scores so they don't get a big a benefit, and if that's not good enough then hell tack this on as a modification to RWoT-A I.

"You treat quarterstaves as a light weapon for the purpose of finessability, to hit, and damage bonuses."

[BlueLightBandit]

Wait... Quarterstaves?

I've heard of them, but I don't know that I've ever seen anybody using them.

I figured they were just there as a placeholder, like all those extra doors in the marketplace, or the double mace section in the AH.

[Angelus_dead]

Seems logical to me that its not finessable.

I mean its a large 2handed blunt weapon.. To make it hurt someone you need to hit them pretty hard, else its not a leathal weapon at all, but just a toy... To work a weapon as finesse - you don't apply brute strength, and thus would not deal enough damage to get thru someones AC, and thus should not gain any to-hit bonus with the weapon.

That's not logical at all.

If you accept the existing rule that the light mace is finesse in one hand, then it makes perfect sense that a quarterstaff held with two hands is also finesse. Both weapons weigh 4 lbs, so the staff user actually has less weight supported by each hand.

Furthermore, the staff actually makes more sense as doing damage without much strength. It's striking leverage is over twice as long (even when the intermediate hand grip is considered), so it can achieve damaging impact force with less strength behind it.

Or that they are small and light enough that you can target the more vulnerable areas of a monster to hurt it, like a light mace. A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.

That's hilarious, and backwards from reality. If there's any finesse weapon which doesn't make sense, it's the Light Mace.

And overpowered because well, 2handed strength x1.5 bonus, and power attack x2 + finesse attack bonus isn't meant to happen in pnp. 2handed weapons are never finesse weapons for that reason.

Untrue. The Player's Handbook includes the Spiked Chain as a core weapon which is two-handed and finesse. It requires the investment of special training in your character build to use properly, which corresponds to how the hypothetical finesse quarterstaff requires investing in Way of the Acrobat enhancements.

Also untrue is the idea it would be unbalanced... a higher strength multiplier just isn't that great for someone whose dexterity is higher than his strength anyway.

The shining Cresent... It is considered a sickle for proficiency and finesse purposely - so perfect for a rogue, and a quarterstaff in terms of animation, so the attack speed boost will apply to it. So yea use that.. To make all wstaffs finesseable is a nerf to that weapon as well, so thats not cool.

It would only be a nerf if everyone got Way of the Acrobat for free, or at least if everyone could train Way of the Acrobat for low cost. But in reality it is an expensive enhancement few will take, especially considering it blocks them from Way of the Assassin.

[Angelus_dead]

I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

That idea was suggested last year in this thread.

That also looks like the thread where Knockdown immunity came from. (Although it was also bumped in another thread, although mostly in the form of a bonus, not total immunity)

[Angelus_dead]

I can't imagine it's that hard to flip the "2-handed? Y/N" switch.

It would be fairly hard to cope with the issue of the offhand end of the quarterstaff lacking any magical enhancement.

If you follow the D&D rules, then it's not attractive to fight with a masterwork stick in your left hand. Or if you disregard the D&D rules, then it is possibly unbalanced to allow a ranger to grab a +5 quarterstaff of greater undeadbane and function as if he had two copies of such a rare and expensive weapon enhancement.

The imbalance might not be bad, considering that the TWF quarterstaff is missing out on the critical range and multiplier the character could get by using khopeshes or rapiers. But it's not an easy concern to dismiss.

[KristovK]

Don't know so much about making the staff a finesse weapon, not in PnP for certain, but I can see the logic behind the request. As it stands, the staff IS a double weapon in PnP, if you wish to use it that way, which naturally incurs all the standard penalties for twf, one end being considered medium and the other light, 1d6 and 1d4 damage. And AD, a magic staff is magic from one end to the other, so yes, a +5 of greater undead bane being used as a double weapon would indeed be the same as using 2 +5 weapons of greater undead bane, one doing 1d6 and the other doing 1d4. Standard for double weapons, whatever it's magic, it applies to both ends, however you can have double weapons that have different magics applied to each end, seen on double bladed swords, orc double axes, gnome hooked hammer, and dwarven urgrosh, since each end actually has different parts and can be enchanted with different magics, especially the urgrosh and gnome hammer, slash/pierce and blunt/pierce combos possible. Keep in mind, there is no 1.5x damage bonus if you use these weapons as double weapons, that gets lost and you take the standard damage/0.5x damage for twf.

From a personal perspective, finesse with a staff..yes, in reality many of the moves used in the traditional martial forms don't use brute strength with one at all times, it's more speed and control then brute force, but that actually goes for almost any melee weapon. Speed and control are the most effective tools when using melee weapons generally speaking, that's a fact that anyone who's used them real life knows. However, there's times when picking up a staff and swinging it like Babe Ruth going for that home run just can't be beat

/signed

[Angelus_dead]

And AD, a magic staff is magic from one end to the other, so yes, a +5 of greater undead bane being used as a double weapon would indeed be the same as using 2 +5 weapons of greater undead bane, one doing 1d6 and the other doing 1d4. Standard for double weapons, whatever it's magic, it applies to both ends

That is entirely and explicitly wrong. You can go read the rules:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm
and
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems...ngMagicWeapons

Double weapons have separate magical bonuses for their different heads. If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d&#37, doubling the cost of the bonus, or its enhancement bonus is one less (51-100 on d%) and it has no special abilities. All magic weapons are masterwork weapons.

PS. The bit about the quarterstaff doing 1d6/1d4 is also incorrect. They ends are the same, so the do the same damage.

[Vormaerin]

Yeah, if you have a quarterstaff that's magical you have to enchant it at a cost equal to enchanting two weapons. Same thing with all the other double weapons.

So it would either be silly expensive in DDO or it would have to function at the Main hand: +5 greater bane/off hand +4 weapon. And no one would use a quarterstaff to dual wield if the latter. Letting someone get two greater banes or banishers for the price of one would be a bad thing.

[Angelus_dead]

Letting someone get two greater banes or banishers for the price of one would be a bad thing.

Since DDO's Banishers only work on crits (unlike the silly-overpowered Banisher in D&D), it wouldn't much matter that you could get dual 20/x2 Banish weapons for the same price as a 19-20 Banish shortsword or an 18-20 Banish rapier.

However, an effect independent of crits might be overpowered on a quarterstaff. +1 Quarterstaff of Disruption anyone? However, I'm not sure if that would be imbalanced to the degree where it's a problem. The majority of DDO monsters are not immune to critical hits, so TWF player characters will prefer to go Khopesh+Kukri or some other combo to get awesome crits, rather than dink away with a 20/x2 wooden stick.

Consider the +5 Quarterstaff of Greater Evil Outsider-bane that constantly drops from the Reaver's Fate...

[DNDJESS]

I like the idea of making it so Way of the Thief Acrobat I makes quarterstaves finessable.

So you'd need the enhancement to do it.

Mystic, I don't say this often to you, but that is a very good and very fair suggestion

Clearly, anything that would make the quarterstaff finesse-able would also have to make it act as a light (or one handed) weapon with regards to strength bonuses and power attack damage.

This, on the other hand, is a bad idea. This would make the quarterstaff totally, completely, and unarguably weaker than using two 1-hand weapons. If you don't get any strength or damage bonus, why in the world would you use one weapon with two possible effects instead of two weapons with four possible effects (3 vs. 6 if if you count material type)?

Oh, and to everyone saying that Qstaffs are strength-based weapons and not dex-based, keep in mind that every finessable weapon is still strength-based, since there is no dex mod for damage.

[Chaosjihad]

A quarterstaff is neither of those, not deadly enough to hurt without force, and much too large and heavy to be used to carefully target vulnerable areas.

Heh. Come on over to my place, but bring your safety goggles. I'd hate for you to lose an eye.

[MysticTheurge]

It would be fairly hard to cope with the issue of the offhand end of the quarterstaff lacking any magical enhancement.

Why should the offhand end of a quarterstaff be lacking any magical enhancement?

When/if double weapons are added, they're going to have to have both ends enchanted without doubling the minimum level, in order for them to be of any use at all.

That is, a double mace has to have the enchantments of two separate maces without having twice the ML of the given mace.

So, if you have a ML: 10 enchantment on one end, you should have an ML: 10 enchantment on the other end and the item should be ML: 10.

Weapons don't have a higher ML when you're dual wielding them. It would be insane to try to make the ML of a double weapon based off the total enchantments to the weapon as opposed to the enchantments on on end or the other.

In that way, it would be perfectly reasonable for existing "double weapons" (i.e. quarterstaves) to be considered as having the same enchantment on both ends. Yes, particularly powerful enchantments are going to make particularly powerful quarterstaves, but that's just how it works. It's even in the rules you quoted from the SRD. "If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d%)." So there's a 50% chance that all quarterstaffs have the same enchantment on both ends.

Once they get a system in place for actually generating enchantments to both ends of a double weapon, then they can change how things behave. But it seems logical, currently, to treat both ends of a quarterstaff as being enchanted in the same way.

Which is all kind of beside the point, because I never meant they should turn the quarterstaff into a double weapon when it's being finessed, I just meant they should turn off the extra strength and power attack damage from being two-handed.

[honkuimushi]

To be honest, finesse is one place where 3.x screwed up. I like that it was added, but the way they did it made it a mechanically inferior option. There are a few situations where it's decent, but in general, stength based builds are better off. One of the problems was the decisions about what weapons were finessable. Anyone who has seen a staff demonstration or seen the staff used in a martial arts movie would be hard pressed to say that it isn't a finessable weapon. Now back in 2nd Edition, staffs were divided into 2 weapons. The quaterstaff, the thicker, iron shod European version, and the bo, the lighter, unshod Eastern version. They shared a proficiency, but the quarterstaff did 1d6 damage to small, medium and large targets. The bo did 1d6 to small and medium targets, but only 1d4 to large targets. Perhaps 3.x should have kept that distiction and made the bo finessable, but with slightly lower damage, maybe 1d4+1 or something. They didn't. But, it is screwed up enough that I really wouldn't mind deviating from 3.5 rules here.

The quarterstaff rules in PnP are kind of wierd. It can be used as a 2 handed weapon, or a dual weapon. When used as a dual weapon, you have to use your strength for attacks by your main hand, but since your off hand is treated as a light weapon, you can finesse those blows. So you can end up in the odd situation of having a much higher attack bonus with your off hand while using the same weapon.

Perhaps more important is balance in DDO. Right now, I almost never see people using quarterstaffs. About the only people I see using them are casters in the harbor. Once they get out of the harbor they usually have a couple of one handed spell effect weapons to dual wield. You cannot use a quarterstaff as a dual weapon and currently, they don't have each end seperately enchanted. Yes, if dual wielding is added, a quarterstaff with a good mod would be like having 2 of them, but is it really that hard to find 2 decent weapons for other weapons? And you can't mix and match like using a seeker and a crit activating weapon with a quarterstaff like you can with other weapons. In this, you really can't comare DDO with PnP. When crafting is intoduced, I could see making each end craftable at double the cost. But for random weapons, just leave them as is.

After all, the quarterstaff does moderate damage with inferior crit properties, 20 x 2. It can't be made of special DR matching materials either. Even if it's finessable, i don't see many people dropping rapiers or even short sword for them. Technically they do 1.5 strength damage as 2 handed weapons. But if you're using weapon finesse, your strength probably isn't that high anyways. Also THF doesn't work with them. You have to waste that feat to get the later THF line feats, which do afeect it to a lesser extent. So if an enhacement that allows quaterstaffs to be finessed is added, you have to spend APs to gain some use out of the weakest two handed weapon in the game. I would prefer to have an enhancement that requires Way of the Acrobat I and costs 1 or 2 APs and allows you to use weapon finesse with a quarterstaff. You should still be able to get the 1.5 strength bonus and use Power Attack. Maybe that and the 10% bonus from Acrobat II will actually lead to people using quarterstaffs. It would still be enourmously feat intensive. To really take advantage you'd need Weapon Finesse, Power Attack, THF, ITHF, and GTHF. That's 5 feats. Improved Critical would be nice but not as good as with martial weapons. And unless you multiclassed, you wouldn't be able to take the proposed STHF. Depending on how the mok works, that might be an interesting multiclass as well.

The quarterstaff has the coolest looking animation in DDO. It's sad that noone actually uses one. Maybe with this change, and maybe a few others(allowing the THF feats to grant full bonuses to Acrobats?) one class will be able to use quaterstaffs effectively.

[roadkill525]

I'd like to see an enhancement line for finessable weapons that work kinda like the pristige class from one of the complete books where you could add up to a certin amount of yer int score to dammage with finessable weapons. because they are easier to hit vital targets, and you are smart enough to know the most vital areas. forget what the class was called though. if no one can remember I'll look it up

[Angelus_dead]

Why should the offhand end of a quarterstaff be lacking any magical enhancement?

Because... the D&D rules says it's lacking?

Yes, particularly powerful enchantments are going to make particularly powerful quarterstaves, but that's just how it works. It's even in the rules you quoted from the SRD. "If randomly determined, the second head of a double weapon has the same enhancement bonus as the main head (01-50 on d%)." So there's a 50% chance that all quarterstaffs have the same enchantment on both ends.

Which doubles the price of the weapon, eating up the rest of the treasure value being randomly generated, and probably even invalidating this item as being part of the treasure roll.

But it seems logical, currently, to treat both ends of a quarterstaff as being enchanted in the same way.

Prehaps, but since that would mean the invention of new game rules unprecedented by D&D, it cannot be said to be as easy as flipping a switch.

Which is all kind of beside the point, because I never meant they should turn the quarterstaff into a double weapon when it's being finessed, I just meant they should turn off the extra strength and power attack damage from being two-handed.

Well that would be totally pointless. You'd allow people to finesse the quarterstaff, so long as they treat it like a light mace that denies them the use of a shield or offhand weapon. Who would willingly do that?

[Dailus]

Really the fact of the matter is gymnist and acrobats in real life require a great deal of strength and dexterity to be really effective I see no reason to shy away from this fact in the fantasy version. Also as many of you have pointed out the quarter staff is not finessable in PnP. Why should we stray away from the table top rules the game is based on? In NWN clubs were finessable should we do the same here just so rogues can effectively weild a muckbane or so every twfer can be a muck killing machine? I have seen the argument that no one uses a quarter staff and making it finessable would be a good incentive to use them, but how many ppl actually use a club as a weapon instead of a spell enhancment? How about scale male or hide, maybe we should do away with those or bend the rules somehow to make them more attractive? My vote is to stick to the rules and let the players decide if the want to take advantage of that enhancment line.

-Dailus

[roadkill525]

I don't think clubs were finessable in NWN... I remember having a problem because of that (havign a rogue guard not being able to use the guards club)

and per pnp rules light weapons are finessable. my DM said even though its 2 handed quarterstaffs are light weapons. after all the spiked chain, and I believe the 3 section staffs both 2 handed weapons that were also finessable?

[Mad_Bombardier]

Wait... Quarterstaves?

I've heard of them, but I don't know that I've ever seen anybody using them.

I figured they were just there as a placeholder, like all those extra doors in the marketplace, or the double mace section in the AH.

Quarterstaff is the only simple 2H weapon available to my melee pure Cleric. I find them on the AH all the time and get great use from them, especially versus non-crittable targets. Holy Qstaff of Undead Bane, of Disruption, of Construct Bane, of Everbright, etc.

I've been championing staves as finessable weapons for a while now. But, I think it depends entirely on use/implementation. Implemented as double weapon = Finessable. Implemented as 2H weapon for x1.5 STR and double PA = not finessable (essentially a simple proficiency lesser greatclub). Default could be 2H weapon as it is now. And differentiation could be as easy as dragging the staff into a weapon set. Drag it once (or just hotkey from inventory) = 2H weapon. Drag it twice (same as making an offhand weapon set) = TWF.

[Vormaerin]

. The majority of DDO monsters are not immune to critical hits, so TWF player characters will prefer to go Khopesh+Kukri or some other combo to get awesome crits, rather than dink away with a 20/x2 wooden stick.

Yeah, the effectively unlimited availability of high end weapons does undercut the value of a double weapon getting a 'free' enhancement. Still, it would be significantly more expensive to get two high end khopeshes or rapiers than one quarterstaff, particularly for the middle of the road players who don't have a stack of everything laying around.

But I would be amazed if they implemented proper dual weapons in DDO, so its kind of a moot point. The quarterstaff is the only one that might see much use. All the others are exotic weapon proficiencies and you'd be better off taking Oversized fighting than exotic: odd dual weapon if you wanted that effect. Quarterstaff, at least, wouldn't cost any feats.

[Invalid_86]

(scratches head)

Not sure what the devs are getting at here. Why pigeonhole thief acrobats into one weapon? Isn't 3.5 about less pigeonholing?

Why quarterstaffs? They are not particularly helpful when tumbling- in fact they often get in the way- and are one of the poorer implemented weapons in the game.

True you could talk about finessing but then consider this- finesse should only apply when using the weapon as a dual weapon, and only to the off hand attacks. Remember that when being used as a dual weapon the main attack is considered a one handed weapon, the off attack a light weapon, so only the off attack gets the finesse bonus and none of the attacks get the 1.5x Strength damage bonus.

Next consider that we'd need proper dual weapon rules. We'd need to option to use staffs either way (as MT already pointed out), we need rules for enchanting each end of the quarterstaff seperately, and the ability to choose which end you are using when attacking with only one end as if the staff was a two handed weapon.

So yeah, what are these guys up to?