Suggestion to Fix Beholders

[Mercules]

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.
People just find another poker house where the rules stay consistent.

Does Turbine need to merge all the servers into 1 before you realise there is a population problem , or will you still not face up to facts? The evasion change led to a mass exodus as will any other major changes they care to make. In this very thread, a PNP enthusiast actually asks the non PnP guys to go play something else. That doesnt seem like a very smart thing to do unless they make alot of new solo mode dungeons.

The PnP enthusiasts left right around Release or Mod 1. THAT wasn't a very smart thing to do. Most MMO enthusiast are not very loyal to one game. If they are, they have been playing that game and still are playing that game and never tried DDO. The PnP enthusiasts would have stuck through lack of content and some of the other woes affecting this game that the MMO enthusiasts never would, but they drove them away be starting the game out SOOOOO far from the PnP ruleset. At least they realized their errors and are slowly angling it back towards those that would be the niche players for this niche game.

[Mercules]

OP, if you want PnP rules then play PnP.

Nerate Mireth, If you want Non-D&D rules then play an MMO not based off D&D.

[Arlith]

To the people who think making beholders like their Pen and Paper counterparts is somehow "bad". Go play a Pen and Paper campaign and report to us how it went. Using your keen tactical abilities I bet your DM get's a FPK notch in his belt without trying. Until them please stop making uninformed posts about things you obviously don't understand.

I just do not want to make them EASIER to fight. They are easy enough already.

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.

This is a tired argument. Turbine was screwed no matter which way they went with this. If they left evasion alone you would have a bunch of monks running around in +5 MFP of Kill Everything, and people would be ****ed because they were too powerful. If they left it alone but made it so everyone would be able to use evasion "as is" except monks, people would be ****ed because monks could not do that (and the first Pally2/Monk12 would have been born). If they left it alone and just said, "Sorry we can't do monks the way it is, and you want it left the way it is so no monks", people would be ****ed. It was a no win situation.

As far as squeaky wheels, my son had a couple wheels on a wagon that were squeaking. So I oiled them. Funny thing though, not long after one of those **** things started squeaking again! No matter how much attention I gave it, it squeaked. So I took it off put a new one on. No squeak. Point is, sometimes you can fix a squeak, sometimes it just keeps on squeaking.

[QuantumFX]

I just do not want to make them EASIER to fight. They are easy enough already.

I don't believe anyone on either side of the argument want's them to be pushovers. A lot of the Pen and Paper advocates have pointed out how a beholder works in D&D and how they need to be ported over so that the encounters become better than before. (ex. Attacking multiple targets at once. Keeping the caster pinned down in an anti magic field, etc.) I think it's this type of "complaining" that's garnered us better encounters with villians. (ex. I personally find all of the baby dragon fights to be much more entertaining than Velah.)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Forgive me for misunderstanding. I for one do not feel i am cheated ANY time i fight a beholder let alone every time.
I can give you a list of things that are "currently functioning 100% differently than they do in PnP." Do you suggest all these things are fixed too ?
This isnt PnP , it never was, and it never will be.

Gotta go with Crabo on this one.

They may not be functioning like PnP but this isnt PnP. Beholders function properly, for DDO. The antimagic field disspelling buffs is how Beholders work here, them being able to disintegrate when they have their antimagic field up is how they are supposed to function in DDO.

Its not like they are ruining any quest. Its not like they make things impossible or take away the fun. In fact, they ADD a BUNCH 'O FUN to the game the way they work now.

[Blazer]

That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.

Not really the point of this thread I realize, however, I would say a more appropriate analogy regarding Evasion would be that when the game was released, the rules were such that 2 pair beats a Royal Flush. Turbine then went back and made the rules the way they were supposed to be so that the Royal Flush beats the 2 pair.

[Mercules]

Gotta go with Crabo on this one.

They may not be functioning like PnP but this isnt PnP. Beholders function properly, for DDO. The antimagic field disspelling buffs is how Beholders work here, them being able to disintegrate when they have their antimagic field up is how they are supposed to function in DDO.

Its not like they are ruining any quest. Its not like they make things impossible or take away the fun. In fact, they ADD a BUNCH 'O FUN to the game the way they work now.

Simple question... what does DDO stand for? This isn't WoW, ergo Beholders(a trademarked monster ONLY allowable in D&D) should act like D&D monsters, not Turbine's bastardization of them. If Turbine lost their D&D license they would have to remove Beholders & Mindflayers as enemies.

[jaitee]

Simple question... what does DDO stand for? This isn't WoW, ergo Beholders(a trademarked monster ONLY allowable in D&D) should act like D&D monsters, not Turbine's bastardization of them. If Turbine lost their D&D license they would have to remove Beholders & Mindflayers as enemies.

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

[Tanka]

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

Considering this game is licensed by Atari, who gets the license from WotC... Yes, this game has to be based on PnP, or it can't carry the D&D name and logo.

[Crabo]

Most MMO enthusiast are not very loyal to one game.

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

[Gelandor]

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

Its kind of a catch 22. There are a lot of PnP players out there, and I mean a lot.

There was a poll done a few years ago of business class airline passengers. They were aked how many of them play DnD, and how often... Something like 31% of the passengers interviews played 'often'.

The problem is this:

The game having the DnD name, and not being very close to PnP turn off many PnP players, and on the flipside, I think that if it were exactly like PnP, the game would not attract as many of the non-PnP group. So either way you are f-----.

[Crabo]

Its kind of a catch 22. There are a lot of PnP players out there, and I mean a lot.

There was a poll done a few years ago of business class airline passengers. They were aked how many of them play DnD, and how often... Something like 31% of the passengers interviews played 'often'.

The problem is this:

The game having the DnD name, and not being very close to PnP turn off many PnP players, and on the flipside, I think that if it were exactly like PnP, the game would not attract as many of the non-PnP group. So either way you are f-----.

I admit that i probably speak to more people in game each day that do/have played DnD than dont/havent. That said i still doubt they can make this game so much like PnP that they will get ALL the PnP guys to come across to it.

I have an idea, why doesnt Turbine make another game that doesnt have the DnD tag , put all their funding into it to make it much better than DDO, then slowly wind down DDO. But how can they make money on a game like that without all those PnP enthusiasts ? Surely it cannot succeed right?

[Ithrani]

Beholders do not become "easier" if their anti-magic eye cone was fixed, because your weapons should also be suppressed, your items, every magical effect you have cast and even supernatural abilities. So yeah, easier I doubt it. My god the ignorance is staggering.

[Mercules]

Someone should tell that to the 5 million WOW customers, its seems to have been overlooked.
If you really believe that the PnP enthusiasts are in enough numbers to keep this game alive i can understand your point of view, and if Turbine believed it maybe they would make DDO exactly like PnP. Unfortunately for you ,Turbine are in this to make money, not friends.
To you this is a game, to them it is simply a way of taking $15 a month from as many people as they can for as long as they can.

1. EVERY person I have ever spoken to personally that has played WoW has tried other games. Every person I have spoken to personally who has played EQ or EQ2 or SWG or CoX, has tried other MMOs. Some go back to their old one, some move on.

2. All of the people I have personally spoken to who played PnP D&D but don't play MMOs on a regular basis who tried DDO and left has said they were not planning on trying a different MMO. Yes, DDO pulled in the PnP crowd who would not otherwise play an MMO. Maybe they left because MMOs are not RPGs, but most I spoke with left because DDO was, "Not D&D enough." or "Screwed up the rules."

3. Turbine made a decision to create an MMO. Right there they have the MMO crowd checking them out. Basing it off D&D has the PnP community checking them out. Best of both worlds, right? Now... how do they appease both of them. That was their issue. They tried to appeal to both, and FAILED. MMO junkies didn't have what they wanted and PnP junkies didn't have what they wanted. Frankly I think they did a pretty good job trying to balance it, but it was nearly an impossible task.

4. I am sure that had Turbine known then, what they have discovered, they would have catered to one or the other crowd. They learned and with LotR:O went with the MMO focus. D&D in an MMO format is a great concept, but suffers from certain things. Rules are complex, magical items not as common as most MMOs, and there are a ton of systems built that just are not useful or able to be programed in an MMO setting where the computer is the GM. Turbine could have gone Niche Game with DDO making it appeal to the narrower focus of the PnP junkies and had a small but steady income that would have kept them going for a while. Slow and steady investment instead of ".com business" rich for 2 years and broke the third.

[Mercules]

but you need to understand this is not PnP, or DnD, this is DDO, and they do not have to listen to you, or do they have to follow all the rules in PnP, and DnD

they make it for todays DDO, and today is the present and will be the future

DnD, and PnP is the past

just like when they made this game, they didnt have to put in monks, or any other races, or other classes, or other alignments, its because turbine does what ever they want to their game, they do not need to base it off a game in the past, people who keep lingering in the past needs to realized this game is the present and the future, things wont be the same from 20+ years ago or will they ever be added

I think you need to understand PnP D&D is not a PAST thing. It is a current, living, breathing, evolving game. We are not lingering in the past, but you sure are lingering in your ignorance of what D&D actually is.

Nobody is asking for things from 20+ years ago. We are asking them to adhere to the rules that came out a couple years ago and have been ruled upon even as recently as last week from the company that has given Turbine permission to use those rules and can take that D&D name right away with a visit to a judge.

If that happens I hope you don't have a WF character as that will have to be pulled from the game along with every other Eberron reference. Beholders will have to be pulled out as they are not part of the open gaming license. Mindflayers, gone, Prison of the Planes, gone until they can come up with "other" planes not breaking copyright law.

[Mercules]

I admit that i probably speak to more people in game each day that do/have played DnD than dont/havent. That said i still doubt they can make this game so much like PnP that they will get ALL the PnP guys to come across to it.

I have an idea, why doesnt Turbine make another game that doesnt have the DnD tag , put all their funding into it to make it much better than DDO, then slowly wind down DDO. But how can they make money on a game like that without all those PnP enthusiasts ? Surely it cannot succeed right?

Of course it can succeed without a single PnP enthusiast. However, having a game that adheres as closely to PnP D&D as possible given the technology/programing which would basically be a "niche" game for those who enjoy D&D but otherwise don't like MMOs or those who like MMOs -and- D&D would give them a loyal customer base.

Think about it this way. To play D&D you purchase a Player's Guide and a dozen dice. This is about $40. You then decide you want the Dungeon Master's Guide finding out there are prestige classes and other rules you might want even as just a player, another $30. Then you find out there is a new book that expands those rules, PG 2, another $30. Oh, but you could create a celestial character with the new rules for... another $30. You've always wanted to play... another $30. Need some nicer looking Dice, lets get the stone or copper ones, another $30. Another $30, another $30, another $30.

Get the picture? D&D players will spend a fortune on their hobby. They are also loyal to their game system and while they won't always agree with the rules, provide a new book with new rules and they will buy it. Turbine had a gold mine in PnP D&D players and shot themselves in the foot trying to "appeal to a wider audience". Books and movies do the same thing as do restaurants, bars, coffee shops, and such.

My friend owned a coffee shop. It was small but interesting. It didn't appeal to businessmen or all of the college crowd, but just a small niche crowd. He decided to make it appeal to more people, and got LESS business. His niche left and the others might stop there, or up the street, or across town.

People need to stop thinking, "If we can appeal to the masses, we get rich." and start thinking, if we can build a loyal following, we can live comfortably for years and years.

[GeneralDiomedes]

Beholders do not become "easier" if their anti-magic eye cone was fixed, because your weapons should also be suppressed, your items, every magical effect you have cast and even supernatural abilities. So yeah, easier I doubt it. My god the ignorance is staggering.

Still, the Beholder cannot suppress your magic and shoot a ray at you at the same time. Killing a Beholder would amount to buffing all the melees with Deathward and temporary hit points in the event the eye closes, and watching them go to town. There are plenty of powerful innate melee abilities in the game that are not magical and would not be suppressed.

[Tanka]

Still, the Beholder cannot suppress your magic and shoot a ray at you at the same time. Killing a Beholder would amount to buffing all the melees with Deathward and temporary hit points in the event the eye closes, and watching them go to town. There are plenty of powerful innate melee abilities in the game that are not magical and would not be suppressed.

Stunning Blow, for instance, is non-magical. Even lacking a +6 item and a 5% weighted item, I can personally hit a DC24. Most Beholders will fail that on Normal.

On Elite, though...

[mgoldb2]

I feel like am trap in one of those books vs movie threads.

person 1: That never happened in book.
person 2: It a movie they had to make some changes.
person 3: If it share the book name it should be the same.
blah
blah
blah


This game is based on pnp. This game will never be exactly like pnp. Making a pnp game into a MMORPG is no different then making a book into a movie. Changes to story/rules, things left out, things added will happen.

But it would not surprise me if the people that complain this not exactly like pnp are the same people that complain about every little thing a movie get wrong that base off a book.

[Mercules]

But it would not surprise me if the people that complain this not exactly like pnp are the same people that complain about every little thing a movie get wrong that base off a book.

Nope... I look at the movie and say, "Ah, I can see why they changed that for Pacing." I can also see why they left parts out. The comparison is similar.

Lets look at two movies based off books.

The Lost World(Jurrasic Park 2)

Lord of the Rings

Many changes from the books to the movie for Lord of the Rings. The Battle of Minas Tirith was made more dynamic instead of the long siege it was in the book, a good change for a movie. The Elves came to the rescue in Helm's Deep, not a good change, but needed because of a few plot changes. Aragorn's sword being delievered to him before the riding of the Mark, eh... needed because the sword was not reforged before leaving Rivendell. A small character change that made Aragorn more interesting. Is he going to follow his destiny or rebel?

Over all the changes to LotR were well thought out. Of them I only disliked the Gimli being the comedy relief.

The Lost World. It Diverged from the book about 10 minutes in and page 5. It never came back. The script was poor, which is a shame as they had the script practically written for them, they just had to cut things out for time.

Most of us claiming DDO should live up to it's namesake see certain things as "Lost World" changes and wish they were only "LotR" changes.