Suggestion to Fix Beholders

[Dingo123]

Huh? Clerics unlimited SPs(never going to live that one down), XP potions(um... what?), and true to PnP rules? Remember Sesame Street? "One of these things is not like the other... one of these things just doesn't belong..."

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

[Ithrani]

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

And it also will not be DnD, so who cares. 4.0 is Wizards way of profiting and ruining DnD like they did with Magic the Gathering.

Also I find it fascinating that in this whole thread everyone of the posters failed to mention that though a beholder can't eye ray you in it's anti-magic field, it can close it's eye at will to do so.

If anyone thinks that this game should not fit PnP when it can then please go play a game with a different name. DDO is a DnD game and should follow those rules as closely as possible unless there is programing issues or combat changes Ie. Mobility adding +4 to AC while Tumbling because there are no AoO. If you don't know hat an AoO is please read a book or spend some time on the SRD page. I find it funny that people who complain about changing things closer to PnP rules seem to know the least about the rules. Your opinion is only as valid as the facts you can back it up with. Or as I like to say, Opinions are like __holes, everyone has one and like __holes some are full of $H!T

[jaitee]

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

[PhoenixFire31]

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

Calm down a bit. Look, when Turbine made this game they made a conscious decision to use DnD (Dungeons and Dragons) as the basis for it (rules, monsters, spells, ect.) In doing so they were targeting a specific group of people. Does this mean everyone playing DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) are going to be PnP (pencil and paper-hate that acronym) players? Heavens no.

That said, the devs do attempt to stay as close to the rules as possible....why? Because it is what this game is based off. Please don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise. If you are not familiar with said rule set there is the online SRD to help you learn. If you are not, then that is fine too, but don't complain about changes you will then know nothing about.

By the same token however, this is an MMO and not all the rules will work in an MMO world...concessions had to be made to make the game enjoyable.

Anyway back to the OP. I have know way of knowing why they cannot make the beholders shut their center eye. It is definitely a good point. If I had to guess I'd say that, programing wise, the anti-magic has nothing to do with his eye. It is probably coded to be an aura for beholders (much like a pallys aura.)

EDIT: BTW-DnD is a little over 30 years old and has undergone many changes of it's own since Gary Gygax (voice in Delara's /shudders) started it. In fact next year is v 4.0 (which is SO not needed.)

[Tanka]

You know, we're already playing fourth edition in many respects..

and in Fourth Edition... Clerics get free healing. =)

Got a source on that?

The only "free healing" I saw was on a critical hit from a melee attack, and it wasn't specified whether that was an ability recieved by every Cleric, or certain Clerics, or an ability that they have to acquire.

So, no, Clerics don't get free healing like your terms. And we aren't playing 4.0. We're still using the 3.5 ruleset.

[Mercules]

who cares about DnD or PnP, this is DDO, DnD and PnP was like 50 years ago, and DDO is today......

honestly, does everyone think that everyone that plays DDO, plays because we read the book, act it out? or how ever you guys play PnP or DnD with a DM, what ever a DM stands for

FYI, i started playing DDO, because it was a online game my friend told me about, i dont know nothing about DnD, or PnP, nor do i care, or do i care that DDO should be like DnD

seriously people need to see that is this DDO, not some game from 30 years ago that people wont let go of, take a right corner instead of going 100 mphs at the ideal DnD compared to DDO

and realize this is todays DDO, its 2007, its not what it was when you guys played it anymore awhile back

it might follow outlines of DnD, but it is not DnD, just like the off brand food people buy, same thing as the brand named stuff, just a little different/and lower in quality

Well, if a company created a game called "Sunday Afternoon NFL Football: Online" you would suspect it to have 4 downs, not 6, 100 yard long playing field, not 50, you would expect the quarter back to be able to hand-off, pass, or run/scramble not just pass, and the clock to stop when someone runs out of bounds. So when a company creates a game called "Dungeons & Dragons Online" we sort of expect the rules of the game to match as closely to the one it is named after as it can.

Also, in case you haven't checked, it's based off the CURRENT D&D, not what some of us played 20 years ago. You can go buy the rule book in the store right now all shiny and crisp and compare it to DDO and scratch your head as to why they are SO different.

Certain things haven't changed, like the unspoken rules of not giving away too many magical items, not overpowering the characters, not giving monsters blanket immunities, and such, but the rules in the book have changed a lot since the 70's-80's and in many cases for the better.

The game is called Dungeons and Dragons: Online, not Generic MMO With Cool Combat System: Online.

[Lost_Leader]

To truely fix beholders, in my own humble opinion:

1- Anti-Magic Cone from central eye would supress buffs. It would also supress all magical effects you have running. it would supress all magical items, weapons, armor. Weeee.

2- All ray attacks should actually have to roll to hit. This isn't just for beholders but for all ray attacks. Give wizads a reason to choose dex over con. Ray Sorcerers as a viable build. Beholder Enervation shouldn't be auto smoosh. (The devs have said that the lack of a to hit roll vs touch ac with ray attacks is because we have the ability as players to dodge out of the way. Shenanigans. I can dodge out of the way of arrows, but they still need an attack roll. I can tumble around a melee, but he still needs to roll. Wanna make it tougher? Increase the speed a ray reaches the target so they are tougher to dodge.)

Anti-Magic field could be a lot of fun to play in. Throw in a few Golems and watch the party cry. fighters with their masterwork weapons are suddenly not so uber vs beholders, but if the beholder drops that central eye cone, then launches all his rays at you, well, sucks be you. And as a previous poster stated, those eye rays should be targetting people outside the cone of antimagic. Beholders are smart. Keep as many casters in the central eye as possible, and unload all your other rays at the others. Mutliple beholders could actually cause each other problems as their antimagic cones overlap.

BTW, flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect. Because of this an antimagic field will not reverse the effect. It permanently changes you into a rock (in ddo we get a save/min to make it more mmo friendly.) There is some argument in my pnp group as to whether a break enchantment can reverse flesh to stone, or if the higher lvl stone to flesh is necessary to reverse it. (stone to flesh also requires a fort save or die as part of the process in pnp)

Agreed, we don't need anything to make the game easier... but anything that makes the game less broken is good. True, they work the way they are... but the way they are isn't the way they are supposed to be. If they were the way they are supposed to be, they would actually be quite a bit tougher. Us without magical gear is us gettin our butts kicked. Put a beholder in there with mindflayers... no magical gear to help your saves, dmg, whatevs... psionic blast goes off and can rip up the whole group pretty dern easily. Tasty brains for everyone.

[Mercules]

2- All ray attacks should actually have to roll to hit. This isn't just for beholders but for all ray attacks. Give wizads a reason to choose dex over con. Ray Sorcerers as a viable build. Beholder Enervation shouldn't be auto smoosh. (The devs have said that the lack of a to hit roll vs touch ac with ray attacks is because we have the ability as players to dodge out of the way. Shenanigans. I can dodge out of the way of arrows, but they still need an attack roll. I can tumble around a melee, but he still needs to roll. Wanna make it tougher? Increase the speed a ray reaches the target so they are tougher to dodge.)

Yes, when I made my first Sorcerer on this game I gave him a high Dex to go with his high Cha. Why? I figured I'd need it for my Ranged Touch Attacks and Touch Attacks as well as AC. Well, the inflated gear makes AC on a caster a hard thing to do, and there is no touch attack to hit/avoid.

I am not happy about the dodging rays concept. With the issues of syncing a server and client you often are hit by the ray no matter how you time the dodge. There WAS a time I could dodge them ok, but for a while now it seems like there is no way to dodge Searing Light/Scorching Ray short of luck. They remind me of insta-hit railguns in certain FPS games. Touch AC would give light armor wearers a reason to exist besides Evasion builds.

[Ithrani]

BTW, flesh to stone is an instantaneous effect. Because of this an antimagic field will not reverse the effect. It permanently changes you into a rock (in ddo we get a save/min to make it more mmo friendly.) There is some argument in my pnp group as to whether a break enchantment can reverse flesh to stone, or if the higher lvl stone to flesh is necessary to reverse it. (stone to flesh also requires a fort save or die as part of the process in pnp)

No Break enchantment doesn't remove flesh to stone, if anyone argues that tell them to call a GS at the WoTC hotline. Here is where the confusion lies:

Break Enchantment
Abjuration
Level: Brd 4, Clr 5, Luck 5, Pal 4, Sor/Wiz 5
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 minute
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Targets: Up to one creature per level, all within 30 ft. of each other
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: No

This spell frees victims from enchantments, transmutations, and curses. Break enchantment can reverse even an instantaneous effect. For each such effect, you make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level, maximum +15) against a DC of 11 + caster level of the effect. Success means that the creature is free of the spell, curse, or effect. For a cursed magic item, the DC is 25.

If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower.

If the effect comes from some permanent magic item break enchantment does not remove the curse from the item, but it does frees the victim from the item’s effects.

Flesh to Stone
Transmutation
Level: Sor/Wiz 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates
Spell Resistance: Yes

The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.
Material Component

Lime, water, and earth.



But here is the reason it does not work:

"If the spell is one that cannot be dispelled by dispel magic, break enchantment works only if that spell is 5th level or lower."

Dispel Magic
Abjuration
Level: Brd 3, Clr 3, Drd 4, Magic 3, Pal 3, Sor/Wiz 3
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target or Area: One spellcaster, creature, or object; or 20-ft.-radius burst
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

[Roguewiz]

High Saves, SR Item, and Deathblock fixes beholders

Leave the beholder killing to Paladins and Warforged! Everyone else can cower behind the corner.

I used to be afraid of beholders, until I ransacked Invaders twice. Now, they are nothing more than a fly and I'm the bug zapper.

[Ithrani]

High Saves, SR Item, and Deathblock fixes beholders

Leave the beholder killing to Paladins and Warforged! Everyone else can cower behind the corner.

I used to be afraid of beholders, until I ransacked Invaders twice. Now, they are nothing more than a fly and I'm the bug zapper.

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

[Roguewiz]

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

Yea, I know. I was just making the comment because beholders aren't really that tough. As far as "fixing" them goes, I don't know. I never fought one in PnP, so I have no actual idea on how they are supposed to function.

[Crabo]

But it does nothing to help fix beholders.

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

[Mercules]

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

Good idea... it seems the squeaking you are talking about are people attempting to move the game closer to it's roots. Doing so would probably stop some squeaking and start more. Evasion is a good example of this. Wait... that isn't what you are asking for at all, it's the opposite. You wish people to say, "Nope... no reason to change anything."

[Mad_Bombardier]

Perhaps we should only oil the wheels that are squeaking.

*squeak*

[PhoenixFire31]

*squeak*

/oils Mad_Bombardier

[Mad_Bombardier]

/oils Mad_Bombardier

Oooh yeah baby... that's the stuff!

/stops
/looks around at the leering crowd

"What? Don't let the avatar fool ya. I'm a Warforged, dontcha know!?"

[Crabo]

Good idea... it seems the squeaking you are talking about are people attempting to move the game closer to it's roots. Doing so would probably stop some squeaking and start more. Evasion is a good example of this. Wait... that isn't what you are asking for at all, it's the opposite. You wish people to say, "Nope... no reason to change anything."

Exactly. You are right on the money. That change to evasion was one of the stupidest decisions they ever made. I personally know 4 people from my friends list that cancelled once it was announced. They made the rules...people made characters based on those rules, then they changed the rules. Its like saying sorry buddy, 2 pair beats a royal flush now, you lose.
People just find another poker house where the rules stay consistent.

Does Turbine need to merge all the servers into 1 before you realise there is a population problem , or will you still not face up to facts? The evasion change led to a mass exodus as will any other major changes they care to make. In this very thread, a PNP enthusiast actually asks the non PnP guys to go play something else. That doesnt seem like a very smart thing to do unless they make alot of new solo mode dungeons.

[Nerate_Mireth]

So you want to make killing something easier. Bottom Line. You can't kill a beholder without dying a million times so you want to cry foul. Some basics on Beholder Killing:
1) WEB! They can get stuck in it too!
2) PK! Oh I love this spell
3) Use TACTICS. In VoN3 you can pull them ONE at a time with patience. In PoP, you FtS the Flayers and FoD the Beholder from up on the rocks in the corner by the door.

Ya, I've died to Beholders before. But you know what, they're NOT supposed to be easy, and wait until Mod 5 hits and you face the Undead Spectral version. Then come cry.

Devs don't hit the beholders with the nerf bat.

OP, if you want PnP rules then play PnP.

[QuantumFX]

To the people who think making beholders like their Pen and Paper counterparts is somehow "bad". Go play a Pen and Paper campaign and report to us how it went. Using your keen tactical abilities I bet your DM get's a FPK notch in his belt without trying. Until them please stop making uninformed posts about things you obviously don't understand.

Beholders are some of the scariest opponents in Pen and Paper. Here in DDO land they've been reduced to spamming debuffs and violating the d20 ruleset in order to "win". It does nothing to make them fearsome it just makes them annoying. It also leaves a bad taste in the mouths of players who know how an encounter with beholders should work.

DDO is meant to impersonate the feel of a D&D game. If the technology is there to properly recreate a creature's abilities then it should be implemented.