nomination of for the worst fun-killers in DDO

[spyder7723]

A zerger will run through multiple packs of mobs, stop at a natural choke point or kill zone, and then kill everything at once as the mobs chasing them come rolling in. This is what you get in games that have powerful AoE damage abilities along with AoE control. Zergers kill all the mobs, they just don't do it one encounter at a time. You'll get DA constantly, and you'll still get a conquest bonus at the end of the quest.

Depends on the quest. If you HAVE to kill to progress a good zerger will use that tactic. But in quests that don't require it, its faster and more xp/minute to ignore the mobs or just throw out a web as you run. Get to end, kill boss, throw up a dimension door then recall/ walk out the entrance. This is what DA was designed to prevent. Unfortunately it has had unintended side effects, the worse being how you can get instant da even when killing everything.

[janave]

d= respawns
e= late joining groups
f= summons and hirelings (bot AI)
g= sneak ability

h= oozes / splitting monsters (eye hosts in xoriat)

h+b is another great combo

[Zretch]

Depends on the quest. If you HAVE to kill to progress a good zerger will use that tactic. But in quests that don't require it, its faster and more xp/minute to ignore the mobs or just throw out a web as you run. Get to end, kill boss, throw up a dimension door then recall/ walk out the entrance. This is what DA was designed to prevent. Unfortunately it has had unintended side effects, the worse being how you can get instant da even when killing everything.

I'd call that method blitzing, myself. Zergs in Starcraft killed things. I don't think there's really an official name, but there are two playstyles. One involves gathering and AoE, the other involves bypassing all content that can be bypassed while still completing the quest. DA arguably ends up punishing the former more than the latter as in the former case, it makes AoE less efficient while in the latter case, DA isn't an issue if you don't get hit...

[ahpook]

h= oozes / splitting monsters (eye hosts in xoriat)

h+b is another great combo

i - stealthed monsters that you ignore because you don't even realize they are there.

[spyder7723]

I'd call that method blitzing, myself. Zergs in Starcraft killed things. I don't think there's really an official name, but there are two playstyles. One involves gathering and AoE, the other involves bypassing all content that can be bypassed while still completing the quest. DA arguably ends up punishing the former more than the latter as in the former case, it makes AoE less efficient while in the latter case, DA isn't an issue if you don't get hit...

Once you get harried you are gonna get hit. A lot. Or maybe i just suck at blitzing.

[Thrudh]

A zerger will run through multiple packs of mobs, stop at a natural choke point or kill zone, and then kill everything at once as the mobs chasing them come rolling in. This is what you get in games that have powerful AoE damage abilities along with AoE control. Zergers kill all the mobs, they just don't do it one encounter at a time. You'll get DA constantly, and you'll still get a conquest bonus at the end of the quest.

Yes, that's fine. Even zergers, at some point, gather up all the mobs, and kill them. That's the whole point of DA.

If the slow-down part of DA didn't exist, zergers wouldn't bother killing mobs at all and would just run past everything.

[Thrudh]

I would argue this is false. They seem to want to doubt people who complain about DA. A New Invasion still has broken DA due to mobs agroing through walls. How long ago was that complained about? 5 years ago? Can you cite some counter examples of where they have fixed problems with DA? I cannot think of any.

The devs absolutely have fixed quests with broken DA in the past. Sorry I can't find the 4-year old posts.

[Zretch]

Once you get harried you are gonna get hit. A lot. Or maybe i just suck at blitzing.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. People who bypass content don't go out of their way to agro everything. They invis, they use shortcuts, they charm and run, they do a lot of things to make sure that the DA doesn't fire.

People who gather up multiple encounters for mass AoE go out of their way to agro EVERYTHING. They want to kill all the mobs (aside from the perched ranged mobs that won't follow), they just don't want to kill them a few at a time because it's more efficient / faster for their build to kill 50 at once than to kill 5 packs of 10. This type of player will always generate DA, and they're not killing any fewer mobs than you are.

I'm going to leave it at that, as this discussion is feeling very much like the "why isn't stealth supported" discussion. Some people seem to have this notion that everyone in DDO is a pacifist who just wants to bypass all content and get to the carrot at the end. They seem to GROSSLY underestimate the level of murder-bot that exists in the playerbase. Some just like to see themselves as a WMD (or an elite assassin in the case of stealth support) rather than a brainless "see mob, kill mob" mongo type of player.

[spyder7723]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. People who bypass content don't go out of their way to agro everything. They invis, they use shortcuts, they charm and run, they do a lot of things to make sure that the DA doesn't fire.

People who gather up multiple encounters for mass AoE go out of their way to agro EVERYTHING. They want to kill all the mobs (aside from the perched ranged mobs that won't follow), they just don't want to kill them a few at a time because it's more efficient / faster for their build to kill 50 at once than to kill 5 packs of 10. This type of player will always generate DA, and they're not killing any fewer mobs than you are.

I'm going to leave it at that, as this discussion is feeling very much like the "why isn't stealth supported" discussion. Some people seem to have this notion that everyone in DDO is a pacifist who just wants to bypass all content and get to the carrot at the end. They seem to GROSSLY underestimate the level of murder-bot that exists in the playerbase. Some just like to see themselves as a WMD (or an elite assassin in the case of stealth support) rather than a brainless "see mob, kill mob" mongo type of player.

I agree with you. I was responding to the guy saying those that run to the end of the quest aren't affected by da. With champs and reapers having true sight and telegraphing your location to every mob in the quest that just simply isn't true.

[LucidLTS]

Lots of nodding my head as I read this, but here is my list

#1 Lag - some days it's bad enough on its own to get me to log off and play something else, usually it's what else goes wrong when lag is bad that really kills the game
#2 BTC anything. It was useful once, it's now just a deterrent for me.
#3 Unresponsive/disobedient hirelings & pets. What part of "stay here" do you not understand? How many times do I have to take you in and out of passive mode before you will respond to a command?
#4 Those DDO AoE holes - I set off an AoE and mysteriously some or most monsters are unaffected. And no, Zombies *don't* have evasion, in case any apologists were about to chime in on that.
#5 Targeting. If I hard target an enemy, it should stay targeted until it dies, period. If I tab to a target, it should stay targeted. If I click near a target, but outside its hit box, the nearest hit box should become targeted. Autotargeting is great, but it should never under any circumstances override hard targeting.
#6 Stealth nerf anything - Test this stuff before you go live. If you absolutely have to change it once it goes live, have the guts to tell us before you do it and give us a chance to discuss it. You don't have to do what we say, but give us a chance to be heard. And really, test and fix before going live.
#7 New systems brought on while old systems need fixing - chew and swallow before taking another bite, seriously.
#8 Lame excuses - full mailboxes are causing lag, so mail has to cap at 50 and expire after 3 weeks? Seriously? Is disk space *that* expensive?
#9 Quests where the guy who ran it on the higher difficulty has to be the first one in. If anyone in the party has done it on hard, let anybody go in first on elite
#10 Descriptions of feats/spells/items/whatever that are wrong. Do what you say, say what you do. And if something doesn't apply to a category a player might reasonably expect it to, say so explicitly.

Wow, I could go on, but 10 is enough.

I think it's also worth noting what doesn't bother me at all - I have no problem with the graphics quality, the state of grouping, the amount of content available (the amount of *relevant* content, yes, but only because of unbridled power creep), or any "over powered" class or build that somebody else plays and I don't. So needless to say "fixing" those things does not improve my gaming experience.

EDIT: Other people zerging also does not bother me in the least, but DA does - a solution that hurts me to solve a problem I don't have is not a solution, it's a problem.

[Chai]

I like your solution, but it directly contradicts one of your earlier points.

No it doesnt, and I specifically pointed out why it doesnt in the post you quoted.

Yes, that's fine. Even zergers, at some point, gather up all the mobs, and kill them. That's the whole point of DA.

If the slow-down part of DA didn't exist, zergers wouldn't bother killing mobs at all and would just run past everything.

You seem to have this thing for zergers. What did the zergers ever do to you?

Where is your "why do you care how others play" stuff now? You see, it is you who are contradicting your own previous position. Not I.

[vryxnr]

You seem to have this thing for zergers. What did the zergers ever do to you?

It didn't seem to me that Thrudh was complaining about zergers, but was actually trying to explain some nuance about zergers. I don't see how that got turned into an anti-zerg complaint. *confused*

[Chai]

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding here. People who bypass content don't go out of their way to agro everything. They invis, they use shortcuts, they charm and run, they do a lot of things to make sure that the DA doesn't fire.

People who gather up multiple encounters for mass AoE go out of their way to agro EVERYTHING. They want to kill all the mobs (aside from the perched ranged mobs that won't follow), they just don't want to kill them a few at a time because it's more efficient / faster for their build to kill 50 at once than to kill 5 packs of 10. This type of player will always generate DA, and they're not killing any fewer mobs than you are.

I'm going to leave it at that, as this discussion is feeling very much like the "why isn't stealth supported" discussion. Some people seem to have this notion that everyone in DDO is a pacifist who just wants to bypass all content and get to the carrot at the end. They seem to GROSSLY underestimate the level of murder-bot that exists in the playerbase. Some just like to see themselves as a WMD (or an elite assassin in the case of stealth support) rather than a brainless "see mob, kill mob" mongo type of player.

This person gets it.

The folks who have the bee in their bonnet about zergers are blinded by their bias to the point where they do not understand the separation in playstyle between actual zergers who use kill zone tactics (and trying to attract aggro), and people running through the quest without killing mobs (not attracting aggro). Any belief that DA is keeping folks from running from one end of the quest to the other with minimal killing demonstrates a lack of understanding of the issue. Those who are engaging in this activity have minimal issues with DA.

Once again the company was hoodwinked by the "new meta theory crafters" who cite some hilarious prediction of "if this were changed the way you want it everyone would just do X because that would be the new META, and since X is cheese/cheating/low skill magnet/doesnt require a kazillion-bajillion years of farming TRs like I had to/doesnt play like I do/etc....we shouldnt incentivize X in any way shape or form, even if it means borking the entire game for everyone else to remove X entire style of play."

Ironic that this failure in logic was used to justify borking stealth as well, due to the same exact fear of people using it to move from one end of a quest to another undetected - as mobs transmitting their aggro everywhere is in large part what is causing this DA issue to ramp back up again.

"Stop stressing our mob pathing calcs by making too many mobs active" + transmitting mob aggro to many mobs on detection = a direct logical contradiction. Turning down the aggro transmission between mobs will cause less active mobs.

[Chai]

It didn't seem to me that Thrudh was complaining about zergers, but was actually trying to explain some nuance about zergers. I don't see how that got turned into an anti-zerg complaint. *confused*

First off, hes incorrect about how zergers actually play. That being said...

Scroll through this one thread alone and count the number of times he talks about preventing zergers from doing specific things.

Turn it into a drinking game. Each time he posts about preventing zergers you take a shot.

Before you do this, hand me your keys. You'll be in no condition to drive. XD

[Alcides]

As a developer I drastically prefer the EQ option. If people really do want appropriate penalties to rail jumping to bypass fights, I don't mind upgrading red DA to Death!

I would say this option limits several builds and abilities. What would the point be in having sprint boist, dire charge, or the vanguard tree? I find it very abhorrent that people who play fast moving builds and have quick reaction time should be penalized. If a player doesn't like zergs don't play with people who zerg and instead group with like minded people instead...

[Dread131313]

I wanted to also add to my list in my other OP:

Being nickel and dimed just to enjoy the game.

This that we have to buy with real money - but shouldnt have to:

Bank Space
Inventory Space (These two are huge)

miscellaneous quests that require "packs" that are not included in larger expansions, for the same of simplicity.

[spyder7723]

I wanted to also add to my list in my other OP:

Being nickel and dimed just to enjoy the game.

This that we have to buy with real money - but shouldnt have to:

Bank Space
Inventory Space (These two are huge)

miscellaneous quests that require "packs" that are not included in larger expansions, for the same of simplicity.

For years we had no option to buy extra space. Wee had to live with the 5 tabs of inventory space plus the 3 tabs of bank space And you don't have to purchase the extra space, but it's a nice option to use your free monthly vip points on.

[vryxnr]

First off, hes incorrect about how zergers actually play. That being said...

Scroll through this one thread alone and count the number of times he talks about preventing zergers from doing specific things.

Turn it into a drinking game. Each time he posts about preventing zergers you take a shot.

Before you do this, hand me your keys. You'll be in no condition to drive. XD

I just did this. Spent about 10 minutes going through each page of this thread, and stopping at every one of his posts and reading it. I had to take zero drinks. He did say that zerging is not his style (and that he stops to deal with DA whenever it appears so that it never gets to high for him, and thus in most situations - not all, but most - DA is something that can be easily dealt with)... but he also said that if you can handle it, go for it. He also acknowledges that a small number of quests are out of hand, but it is a small percentage. Everything else seems to have been about trying to clarify how things may or may not work.

It's almost like a lot of arguments here (not just in this thread, but in many others) is because some posters simply don't like each other rather than about what they are actually saying.

[Chacka_DDO]

Yes, that's fine. Even zergers, at some point, gather up all the mobs, and kill them. That's the whole point of DA.

If this is the whole point of DA I question it because there is in my opinion nothing wrong in it to use this kind of tactic.
DDO is the ONLY game I know that tries to prevent players from this kind of play style.
Therefore I absolutely question that DDO tries to force you into a specific playstyle.

Also notice, that it is now harder to separate monsters than ever before if you see a pack of monsters it is almost inevitable to pull all at once.

So it is not allowed to deal with many monsters but it is also not allowed to deal with a few monsters?

All that is seemingly allowed is to deal with a specific number of monsters.

Sorry but if you ask me that's very sad not to say plain wrong.

If the slow-down part of DA didn't exist, zergers wouldn't bother killing mobs at all and would just run past everything.

And to the no-kill tactic question:

If it is not a part of the tasks in a quest to kill any monster why should a player do that?
If it is the policy of DDO's quest designers that they don't want anyone to run through a quest then they should prevent this by quest design.
There are several mechanics in DDO to make another way than just running trough as the logical tactic.
e.g. you have a quest objective to kill a certain number of monsters, or you can only proceed if you kill some monsters because of a barrier or better a locked door blocks your path.
The Dungeon Alert is obviously simply a poor solution because it doesn't remove the reasons why players run trough.

The pure existence of Dungeon Alert just takes variety away from the game.
In Diablo 3, there are in the extreme even some quests who DEMAND you to just run through and kill nothing because it is otherwise impossible to finish the quest in time.
And you have even items and abilities that make exactly this easier!
To make it even more clear, it is not only an accepted tactic to run trough, but it is also even SUPPORTED!

Seriously you have seemingly a quite limited kind of tunnel vision that only things should be possible in DDO you like and know.
And if another player is going to do it differently he deserves punishment.

And to turn back to the Diablo 3 example (sorry I dont play many different games) there are in contrast quests where you have to kill every last monster in a dungeon to complete them.

In the past quest designers in DDO even created quests that made it as the best option to use a stealth tactic, you even got the best reward if you do Claw of Vulkoor just only with sneaking and already the agro of one guardian takes a chest with a chance for a named item away from you.

And THIS is a DDO I want to have, a DDO with options to do things differently and not a DDO as a kind of a one-lane one-way street.

Maybe Dungeon Alert is currently indispensable but I see the removal of the Dungeon Alert as a long-term goal for DDO's developers.
It is not everything fine and there is a need for action.

[Niminae]

If you want to force people to kill stuff, make killing stuff a quest objective. You can then have "kill quests", "stealth quests", etc and tune each quest to support that style of play.

They do have this in game right now. Some quests have an 'optional' amount of kills that you simply cannot avoid accomplishing as you run the quest. Devil Assault is one example. Other quests have as an optional killing certain amounts of specific mobs. And all quests have a built-in XP reward for various amounts of dead opponents.