Why play a melee character at all?

[BigErkyKid]

Have you played a shuriken build in heroics? At level 3? At level 8? Shurikens aren't powerful until you get IPS in the teens, and they aren't super powerful until epics when you get FoTW.

Sadly, I have. G I hated that thing.

I already said that the game has pretty big differences between heroics and epics.

When I talked about shuris and mechanics, I talk about epics. When I mention vorpal fishing, I talk about heroics.

Melees surely are not remotely in the same league when leveling. I think that this is obvious to everyone in the conversation.

Hence why the discussion I was trying to have was about epics and cap play in particular.

Because, you know, apparently we are finally getting some cap love in Ravenloft.

[Keladon]

OK, I'll shorten it - your example is irrelevant because it does not address the parameters of the question.

If you would like to start a thread discussing which builds can solo raids on Reaper feel free. I have no interest in soloing so you will not see me in that thread. Perhaps that discussion will prove which builds you must play if you wish to solo a raid on reaper. I'm not sure exactly what part of the player base that addresses but you're welcome to start the discussion. BTW this is not a new idea. A monk build could easily solo Chronoscope back in the day. A wide variety of builds could solo ADQ. Perhaps you just don't know how to do it on a melee? I'd also point out that your ranged character did not solo the raid, presumably he just ran around with dragons chasing him while sniping at the SR and TO. Seems like any melee could do that as well with Divine Artillery and goes more to the individual players skill than any reflection on class. Does a ranged character kite faster than a melee? In fact a Barbarian is probably faster than that ranged character (unless he was a monk) So the ranged spec'd one does it in 20 minutes and it takes the Fighter with Divine Artillery 35. Oops, guess I just answered the premise of your thread.

Thank you, that answer says enough.
Melee can do this if they use a ranged weapon.. at which point we can't really call it melee anymore.

[nokowi]

Thank you, that answer says enough.
Melee can do this if they use a ranged weapon.. at which point we can't really call it melee anymore.

hehe

point set match

[Chai]

OK, I'll shorten it - your example is irrelevant because it does not address the parameters of the question.

If you would like to start a thread discussing which builds can solo raids on Reaper feel free. I have no interest in soloing so you will not see me in that thread. Perhaps that discussion will prove which builds you must play if you wish to solo a raid on reaper. I'm not sure exactly what part of the player base that addresses but you're welcome to start the discussion. BTW this is not a new idea. A monk build could easily solo Chronoscope back in the day. A wide variety of builds could solo ADQ. Perhaps you just don't know how to do it on a melee? I'd also point out that your ranged character did not solo the raid, presumably he just ran around with dragons chasing him while sniping at the SR and TO. Seems like any melee could do that as well with Divine Artillery and goes more to the individual players skill than any reflection on class. Does a ranged character kite faster than a melee? In fact a Barbarian is probably faster than that ranged character (unless he was a monk) So the ranged spec'd one does it in 20 minutes and it takes the Fighter with Divine Artillery 35. Oops, guess I just answered the premise of your thread.

So theres no issue with melee, as they can equip a ranged weapon?

Thats kind of the point of the thread title. If youre playing a melee and trying to be optimal, in the context of DDO, youre doing it wrong. The META is ranged and casters.

[Chai]

Have you played a shuriken build in heroics? At level 3? At level 8? Shurikens aren't powerful until you get IPS in the teens, and they aren't super powerful until epics when you get FoTW.

Players having to suffer through non optimal level ranges in DDO for what their build does is nothing new. We used to swing great swords and axes on casters until level 7 before the spell cost revamp for instance.

[Thrudh]

Sadly, I have. G I hated that thing.

I already said that the game has pretty big differences between heroics and epics.

When I talked about shuris and mechanics, I talk about epics. When I mention vorpal fishing, I talk about heroics.

You didn't make that clear at all. My melee is far superior to shuriken-builds in low to mid-level heroics.

Melees surely are not remotely in the same league when leveling.

They are superior when compared to the shuriken builds you were quoting.

Hence why the discussion I was trying to have was about epics and cap play in particular.

Your statement was

I have yet to see a melee build, regardless of level (and exploits aside) putting up the numbers and utility of a good shuriken build.

You are the one that said "regardless of level". You made a false statement. Don't try to back out and say you were just talking about epics and cap play.

Just say, "Oops, I was wrong about that. Sorry."

[BigErkyKid]

You didn't make that clear at all. My melee is far superior to shuriken-builds in low to mid-level heroics.

They are superior when compared to the shuriken builds you were quoting.

Your statement was

You are the one that said "regardless of level". You made a false statement. Don't try to back out and say you were just talking about epics and cap play.

Just say, "Oops, I was wrong about that. Sorry."

Isn't there enough drama in the forums already?

I am sure you can understand very well how this post of yours does nothing for the conversation.

[Yamani]

Isn't there enough drama in the forums already?

I am sure you can understand very well how this post of yours does nothing for the conversation.

I think the real problem is comparing burst dps to sustained dps. My ranger does have higher burst dps that could kill boss's and tons of trash in seconds. but when its on cool-down its not nearly as high dps. While any semi decent melee could have a higher sustained dps all the time. Especially if you know, do this one thing that is unheard of lately and group up with semi-decent players. Get a caster who can CC, I know such a hard thing to find, and melee spamming any form of cleave or multi hit attack in a group of held mobs will out dps a ranger who has to shoot straight. The problem is a ranger has to kite cause they are to afraid to get hit.

Just FYI I have a TR partner who plays mass CC caster, healer, and has AOE DPS, while I play a melee who heals, CC's, has great DPS, even for boss's if I use Avatar.

[Cantor]

Sadly, I have. G I hated that thing.

I already said that the game has pretty big differences between heroics and epics.

You just go staff build on your shuri in heroics until IPS. Far outshines trying to throw even with no feats for THF or cleaves.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Yet, somehow very few got this memo. When I log in to play in the hamster wheel of pain I find a surprisingly low amount of people choosing to melee in reaper.

unless empirical proof is provided demonstrating that this is because the melee combat style is utterly ineffective and pointless, why would you draw that conclusion over others?

wouldnt a more simple and obvious reason be because other things are easier? melee could be balanced against the content a little better, but the truth is that melee is not the issue. if ranged damage wasnt disproportionately powerful compared to its opportunity cost then people wouldnt be complaining about how **** melee is, theyd be complaining about how punishing reaper is.

[Marshal_Lannes]

Thank you, that answer says enough.
Melee can do this if they use a ranged weapon.. at which point we can't really call it melee anymore.

No, no and no. Being a melee doesn't mean you only swing a SoS great cleave, cleave, power surge, haste boost and HEAL ME. It seems a ton of you people, including the others who chimed in on this tangent simply do not know how to play a melee when you can't ROFL cocoon your way through EE. Does being a melee mean you never throw a heal at the cleric? You can carry CSW wands can't you? Does that mean you can't raise dead? Every character in Reaper should be able to raise dead. And does that mean you can only swing a SoS - or wait an eSOS since you are using the irrelevant example of an epic raid when the meta game is 1-20 TR. NO! A versatile melee can also range attack! I know how odd! You mean I can't just go 11 DPS with my GS? No, you have to have utility. In some situations you use the tactics which work best.

I see a LOT of you need to go back to Melee 101 school. This is why I love Reaper. It is challenging the player base and tossing all their preconceived notions into a blender and spitting them out. The strong, good players will survive this, I just hope they don't nerf Reaper so it becomes the laugh fest elite was.

[Spadedragon]

Thank you, that answer says enough.
Melee can do this if they use a ranged weapon.. at which point we can't really call it melee anymore.

'This' +1

[BigErkyKid]

unless empirical proof is provided demonstrating that this is because the melee combat style is utterly ineffective and pointless, why would you draw that conclusion over others?

wouldnt a more simple and obvious reason be because other things are easier? melee could be balanced against the content a little better, but the truth is that melee is not the issue. if ranged damage wasnt disproportionately powerful compared to its opportunity cost then people wouldnt be complaining about how **** melee is, theyd be complaining about how punishing reaper is.

There is plenty of empirical proof. Hundreds and thousands of players have attempted reaper hamster wheeling on melees and on ranged toons and they have decided that doing it on a melee is more painful. You have several people reporting it here if you need to read some sobby personal stories.

In a game of character progression, people not playing certain archetypes is as much proof as you need to identify the weak ones. In general that's how other games, sometimes even openly, identify weak options.

Of course if you point is that they are not ABSOLUTELY useless, in the sense that they just go in and die, then yeah you are right, they aren't. But that has never been the point.

The discussion here is that there is no compelling reason, aside of flavor, to play a melee character. And you seem to agree with it when you say:

if ranged damage wasnt disproportionately powerful compared to its opportunity cost then people wouldnt be complaining about how **** melee is, theyd be complaining about how punishing reaper is

so what exactly are we arguing over here?

[BigErkyKid]

I see a LOT of you need to go back to Melee 101 school. This is why I love Reaper. It is challenging the player base and tossing all their preconceived notions into a blender and spitting them out. The strong, good players will survive this, I just hope they don't nerf Reaper so it becomes the laugh fest elite was.

We took the course, no offense but it is you who is lagging in understanding. While you theory craft fighter / cleric / warlock parties to play heroic reaper, others with thousands of hours of playtime have already cracked the case.

It is not fighter / cleric / warlock that dominates reaper hamster wheeling, it is warlock / warlock /warlock. Or if you don't have any gear, drop some skulls and go vorpal fishing on a repeater. In other words, it is not DPS that wins the day, it is charms and insta kills of one form or another.

I am glad you are having fun with your melee (or you had it, or whatever), but truth is you are playing "full flavor style". No one is doing it wrong if they are having fun (duh!), but from a game balance perspective it is kinda pointless. It is like talking balance with the people leveling pet master builds prior to reaper.

[BigErkyKid]

You just go staff build on your shuri in heroics until IPS. Far outshines trying to throw even with no feats for THF or cleaves.

Oh I did melee, I just don't like the chucker play style so when I got to it I just TRed instead of keeping it in epics. But yeah I agree, kids do not try to use a shuriken build to level heroics. It can suck big time, much like a lot of the old shiradi builds.

[Wizza]

So Meld into Darkness is 15 seconds every 2 minutes?

What's the "correct" use of this by the tank in a coordinated group? Does the tank activate meld (becoming unhittable) and close with a mob group which then "wastes" their aggro by targetting him and leaving the casters to kick their ass? Prior to the 15 secs being up has the entire mob group then been immobilized with dire charge/hold monster/charm/etc (and/or killed with finger/wail/pk/etc)?

Do you find that meld can be used about once every second mob group encounter due to the 2 min countdown? Or do you tend to wait a bit so that you can start every encounter with meld?

Depends on you and your playstyle. If you are a tank, you probably don't need meld at all, but it can still be useful when you aggro too many mobs. You can use it to approach the mobs that escape from CC to CC them yourself, or to survive a mob that is just running at you, or to survive an ambush-like encounter.

I typically start a quest duo, so I use it pretty much in every 1-2 encounters, and sometimes just wait meld out before approaching an encounter that we know it's hard. In a group, things go faster so every 2-3 groups seems reasonable.

Pretty hand tool.

[cryalotmaster]

Depends on you and your playstyle. If you are a tank, you probably don't need meld at all, but it can still be useful when you aggro too many mobs. You can use it to approach the mobs that escape from CC to CC them yourself, or to survive a mob that is just running at you, or to survive an ambush-like encounter.

I typically start a quest duo, so I use it pretty much in every 1-2 encounters, and sometimes just wait meld out before approaching an encounter that we know it's hard. In a group, things go faster so every 2-3 groups seems reasonable.

Pretty hand tool.

This ability is useful for casters and ranged that don't stand close to the mobs.

But say again that melee is fine since you just don't play it.

[Marshal_Lannes]

We took the course, no offense but it is you who is lagging in understanding. While you theory craft fighter / cleric / warlock parties to play heroic reaper, others with thousands of hours of playtime have already cracked the case.

It is not fighter / cleric / warlock that dominates reaper hamster wheeling, it is warlock / warlock /warlock. .

Come over to Orien if you need a demonstration of what a Fighter can do in Reaper.

[silinteresting]

There is plenty of empirical proof. Hundreds and thousands of players have attempted reaper hamster wheeling on melees and on ranged toons and they have decided that doing it on a melee is more painful. You have several people reporting it here if you need to read some sobby personal stories.

this is a lie, im sorry but as far as myself and others i play with are concerned it is no more painful as you put it to do a melee build for reaper heroics
than it is for doing a warlock it is just slower, there is no pain involved anywhere. what i think your not understanding about the game at present is that
its about getting through lives to get to the goal of going back to our favourite builds and in some cases they are melee builds. once the goal of getting
racial lives done is done by the majority of players then and only then will we have a true reflection of what people are playing and not the skewed data
we have now. again i would like to point out that its not more painful in ANYWAY.

regarding the hundreds or thousands of players you seem to know or have polled to know the above statement is true may i see the evidence please ?.

your friend sil

[zehnvhex]

it is charms and insta kills of one form or another.

Semi-cross post but that's basically the current issue.

Some warlock/wizard comes along who can carry bads in R6+. They still need warm bodies to throw at bosses so they put up an LFM because doing it solo is just painful. Ranged characters and blaster casters can feel like they 'contribute' because they can still hit the boss for 4 damage per click. Melee just spend the entire time as a stone.

In R1/R2 melee are fine and thriving. Get a GS offhand and build a divine melee (especially after the coming divine pass) and you're fine even solo and moreso in groups.

But you see Firegoddess or whoever your resident reaper choo choo has an R6 LFM up, you want in on that sweet sweet freebie reaper points. He invites you because he'll let anyone join and you spend the entire dungeon dead because you don't build for that sort of thing typically. You don't have the 1000 hp build at level 12. You don't have double vorpals and are waiting for everything to be CC'd to move in and get a few kills. You don't wait for threat to be established before moving in on a boss. You stand in the middle of a pack of charmed mobs thinking 'this is fine.'

Sure the shuri is doing a grand total of maybe 4 DPS but hey, that's 4 more dps then you are right?

So that's basically the crux of it. IK/Charm builds are able to carry bads and then those bads feel extra bad because the bad ranged are still bad...but they're alive bads. That isn't to say you're a bad player, you're just not building for what you're doing because you aren't consistently doing it. You'll see most of the people who post about how 'melee are fine' have static groups or regularly play with the same subset of people (or stay the heck out of anything above R2).

The question is do they nerf IK/charm so they can't carry, buff the bads so they can feel like they contribute, or let it just keep going because "reaper is unfair lol!"

Take a wild guess folks.