Why play a melee character at all?

[BigErkyKid]

Come over to Orien if you need a demonstration of what a Fighter can do in Reaper.

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3dJnhK-EI

[BigErkyKid]

Semi-cross post but that's basically the current issue.

Some warlock/wizard comes along who can carry bads in R6+. They still need warm bodies to throw at bosses so they put up an LFM because doing it solo is just painful. Ranged characters and blaster casters can feel like they 'contribute' because they can still hit the boss for 4 damage per click. Melee just spend the entire time as a stone.

In R1/R2 melee are fine and thriving. Get a GS offhand and build a divine melee (especially after the coming divine pass) and you're fine even solo and moreso in groups.

But you see Firegoddess or whoever your resident reaper choo choo has an R6 LFM up, you want in on that sweet sweet freebie reaper points. He invites you because he'll let anyone join and you spend the entire dungeon dead because you don't build for that sort of thing typically. You don't have the 1000 hp build at level 12. You don't have double vorpals and are waiting for everything to be CC'd to move in and get a few kills. You don't wait for threat to be established before moving in on a boss. You stand in the middle of a pack of charmed mobs thinking 'this is fine.'

Sure the shuri is doing a grand total of maybe 4 DPS but hey, that's 4 more dps then you are right?

So that's basically the crux of it. IK/Charm builds are able to carry bads and then those bads feel extra bad because the bad ranged are still bad...but they're alive bads. That isn't to say you're a bad player, you're just not building for what you're doing because you aren't consistently doing it. You'll see most of the people who post about how 'melee are fine' have static groups or regularly play with the same subset of people (or stay the heck out of anything above R2).

The question is do they nerf IK/charm so they can't carry, buff the bads so they can feel like they contribute, or let it just keep going because "reaper is unfair lol!"

Take a wild guess folks.

+1 on some stuff, not so much on other.

Yes, IK/charm carries many groups in high end content. Some people don't want to charm as much, not because of efficiency reasons, but rather because they don't enjoy the "cheese". Then they need more raw DPS /and more insta kills.

For the places where charm isn't ideal (or just not desired) you still need raw DPS for DWed mobs and bosses. There I suggest you bring a ranged DPSer, because of all the reasons described all along the thread.

[psykopeta]

why olay melee...cause u like it maybe? it's fun for whoever does like it, i would say

i like the swf or s&b animation, or the appearance of wiealding 1 big hammer or 2 hammers, not fan of axes (i like urgrosh but i would say there are not in DDO)

same way for ranged i like repeating crossbows over GXB or bows or shurikens.... in fact i hate shurikens, maybe throwing darts or hammers....xD

casters.... i like instakill cause the utility ofc, however i enjoy a lot more a big fireball in the top of enemies' nose... but fire is bad for web, and that makes me sad

so, why play anything subpar at all? cause it's funny and you like it, instead you think is funny roflstomping content? in that case (and in any game) the options are really narrow, that's why i thinl it's not funny, in fact i use to wait for the meta to change if i like the idea after a roflstomping build like... juggernaut, haven't played it yet xD

[cryalotmaster]

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3dJnhK-EI

All those players have quit the game.

[Rys]

I was tempted to place a claw of vulkoor solo backpack video next to a R10 charm video and ask people to compare the level of skill and tactics needed. I found the level of tactics in charm completion to be quite low.

Why you didn't then? Public shaming doesn't seem to be a problem for some people. And most of them enjoy it very much too.

[Benihim]

No, no and no. Being a melee doesn't mean you only swing a SoS great cleave, cleave, power surge, haste boost and HEAL ME. It seems a ton of you people, including the others who chimed in on this tangent simply do not know how to play a melee when you can't ROFL cocoon your way through EE. Does being a melee mean you never throw a heal at the cleric? You can carry CSW wands can't you? Does that mean you can't raise dead? Every character in Reaper should be able to raise dead. And does that mean you can only swing a SoS - or wait an eSOS since you are using the irrelevant example of an epic raid when the meta game is 1-20 TR. NO! A versatile melee can also range attack! I know how odd! You mean I can't just go 11 DPS with my GS? No, you have to have utility. In some situations you use the tactics which work best.

I see a LOT of you need to go back to Melee 101 school. This is why I love Reaper. It is challenging the player base and tossing all their preconceived notions into a blender and spitting them out. The strong, good players will survive this, I just hope they don't nerf Reaper so it becomes the laugh fest elite was.

Says the noob who cant solo... ^^

[Benihim]

Again we have a breakdown in communication. First, who said anything about soloing? I don't solo. DDO is a group game. Reaper is for grouping. I give no credence to anything dealing with soloing.

Second, once again you cannot state the TR "hamster wheel" (I call it gameplay and having fun) then bring in Reaper Raid completions. Which raids are people running in heroics? VON? I do this Reaper, no problem always diverse group. No one is really ever flagged for DQ. No one does Reavers Fate. By the time you're flagged for Shroud you have TR'd. So again you seem to be bringing in Epics into the discussion. Epic Raid completion feats are irrelevant to this discussion.

"I don`t solo" = i cant solo :P

[Benihim]

Come over to Orien if you need a demonstration of what a Fighter can do in Reaper.

such big talk ! how about a screenshot of you solo any quest at BASE level on r3 or higher with a melee? if you do that i ll buy you a 500 TP !

[Benihim]

this is a lie, im sorry but as far as myself and others i play with are concerned it is no more painful as you put it to do a melee build for reaper heroics
than it is for doing a warlock it is just slower, there is no pain involved anywhere. what i think your not understanding about the game at present is that
its about getting through lives to get to the goal of going back to our favourite builds and in some cases they are melee builds. once the goal of getting
racial lives done is done by the majority of players then and only then will we have a true reflection of what people are playing and not the skewed data
we have now. again i would like to point out that its not more painful in ANYWAY.

regarding the hundreds or thousands of players you seem to know or have polled to know the above statement is true may i see the evidence please ?.

your friend sil

seriously Sil , you have rightfully earn 2 more letters to your name ; L+Y

[Benihim]

Semi-cross post but that's basically the current issue.

Some warlock/wizard comes along who can carry bads in R6+. They still need warm bodies to throw at bosses so they put up an LFM because doing it solo is just painful. Ranged characters and blaster casters can feel like they 'contribute' because they can still hit the boss for 4 damage per click. Melee just spend the entire time as a stone.

In R1/R2 melee are fine and thriving. Get a GS offhand and build a divine melee (especially after the coming divine pass) and you're fine even solo and moreso in groups.

But you see Firegoddess or whoever your resident reaper choo choo has an R6 LFM up, you want in on that sweet sweet freebie reaper points. He invites you because he'll let anyone join and you spend the entire dungeon dead because you don't build for that sort of thing typically. You don't have the 1000 hp build at level 12. You don't have double vorpals and are waiting for everything to be CC'd to move in and get a few kills. You don't wait for threat to be established before moving in on a boss. You stand in the middle of a pack of charmed mobs thinking 'this is fine.'

Sure the shuri is doing a grand total of maybe 4 DPS but hey, that's 4 more dps then you are right?

So that's basically the crux of it. IK/Charm builds are able to carry bads and then those bads feel extra bad because the bad ranged are still bad...but they're alive bads. That isn't to say you're a bad player, you're just not building for what you're doing because you aren't consistently doing it. You'll see most of the people who post about how 'melee are fine' have static groups or regularly play with the same subset of people (or stay the heck out of anything above R2).

The question is do they nerf IK/charm so they can't carry, buff the bads so they can feel like they contribute, or let it just keep going because "reaper is unfair lol!"

Take a wild guess folks.

+1 !

[zehnvhex]

For the places where charm isn't ideal (or just not desired) you still need raw DPS for DWed mobs and bosses. There I suggest you bring a ranged DPSer, because of all the reasons described all along the thread.

Part of it too is the lack of urgency in DDO.

Let's ballpark it and say you have good melee and good ranged players. The good melee may end up doing ~10% more dps on the handful of fights you can't brute force your way through with IK's. This is accounting for having to back in/back out/having to wait for a heal if you get swiped but not killed, etc...

Considering how little of the content that accounts for, who is in that much of a hurry that you would ever prioritize a melee over a ranged? Considering that in DDO most of us will take anybody with a pulse these days I think a lot of people who -want- to do high skull reaper are going to naturally gravitate towards ranged.

Not that melee can't do it, it's just not worth the extra effort. I like DDO but you have to play a lot of it so it's nice to be able to play builds/classes that can Netflix their way through dungeons. You have to pay way too much attention as a melee.

Unfortunately the ship has kinda sailed on adjusting any of it.

So I would say worry more about R1/R2 where, honestly, things are pretty balanced outside of warlock and artificer shenanigans.

[Selvera]

such big talk ! how about a screenshot of you solo any quest at BASE level on r3 or higher with a melee? if you do that i ll buy you a 500 TP !

Ooh free TP! Can solo cartman's chain on R3 at level 1 on a melee no problem.

But seriously... hireling allowed or not? If yes, I could easily provide examples of me soloing R3 on my current fighter/monk build, and actual quests, not just Cartman freebies. If not; I might be more limited in the quests that I could currently complete with my pastlives/build since I don't have significant self-healing built into it, and I really don't want to restore 400 HP through csw pots on R3 when I need to.

[BuyerSeller]

It takes a wizard FOREVER to TR, gear up, supreme tombs etc. It is not easy to be a DC caster. It is not easy to be a wizard at all IMO. We run out of mana in 5 minutes and need to constantly chug potions that aren't free. The real problem is broken mechanics with DC casting and other things being broken and needing to be fixed. They also need to overall pretty much every class tree and put them on par with a warlock. All they keep doing is nerfing, and NOT fixing the real problems, which are other class tree's being horrible.

Stop giving us new ways to TR and start fixing the real problems!

(This just in! Turbine released a new heart of the garden! Now you can reincarnate into your favorite fruit or vegetable and enjoy all the benefits of those past lives!)

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

Ooh free TP! Can solo cartman's chain on R3 at level 1 on a melee no problem.

But seriously... hireling allowed or not? If yes, I could easily provide examples of me soloing R3 on my current fighter/monk build, and actual quests, not just Cartman freebies. If not; I might be more limited in the quests that I could currently complete with my pastlives/build since I don't have significant self-healing built into it, and I really don't want to restore 400 HP through csw pots on R3 when I need to.

I'd like free tp too. Can I participate on this bet as well?

[Tyrande]

such big talk ! how about a screenshot of you solo any quest at BASE level on r3 or higher with a melee? if you do that i ll buy you a 500 TP !

May be you should make it a server contest game where you have contestants and you can walk into a completed dungeon before they loot the final chest and examine things.

But prepare those 500TP for each contestant! If you are going to Sarlona, I am sure a lot of people want to participate for free 500TP.

[Tyrande]

Ooh free TP! Can solo cartman's chain on R3 at level 1 on a melee no problem.

But seriously... hireling allowed or not? If yes, I could easily provide examples of me soloing R3 on my current fighter/monk build, and actual quests, not just Cartman freebies. If not; I might be more limited in the quests that I could currently complete with my pastlives/build since I don't have significant self-healing built into it, and I really don't want to restore 400 HP through csw pots on R3 when I need to.

Regardless of hireling or not, you cannot walk into a quest below level 4 to run Reaper now.

You can walk into Cartaman's chain (L3 on Elite?) on even Reaper 10, and you'll only get Elite XP.

[PermaBanned]

Regardless of hireling or not, you cannot walk into a quest below level 4 to run Reaper now.

You can walk into Cartaman's chain (L3 on Elite?) on even Reaper 10, and you'll only get Elite XP.

When did this happen? I'd sware it was only ~3 weeks ago I ran Catacombs (base level *3) on Reaper with a level 3 character, and was awarded Reaper XP on every *quest for doing so. Was it a very recently patched-in change?

*except last quest; it's level base level 4 and I didn't want to bother killing more than the boss so I didn't Reaper it.

[Tyrande]

When did this happen? I'd sware it was only ~3 weeks ago I ran Catacombs (base level *3) on Reaper with a level 3 character, and was awarded Reaper XP on every *quest for doing so. Was it a very recently patched-in change?

*except last quest; it's level base level 4 and I didn't want to bother killing more than the boss so I didn't Reaper it.

I think just last week when the patch was put in. I just TR'd on my warlock and I found out I couldn't get Reaper XP below level 4 quest level on elite.

[LawfulGood]

Regardless of hireling or not, you cannot walk into a quest below level 4 to run Reaper now.

You can walk into Cartaman's chain (L3 on Elite?) on even Reaper 10, and you'll only get Elite XP.

This is false. You can start earning rxp by running the base level 2 quests on Reaper. My TR group started our latest cycle on Monday and was still earning rxp from level 2 and 3 quests. Of course you still can't spend your Reaper AP until your character is level 4, but that's always been the case since Reaper was introduced.

[nokowi]

Why you didn't then? Public shaming doesn't seem to be a problem for some people. And most of them enjoy it very much too.

Your reply says it all.

I didn't think an intelligent conversation would be possible, and those interested can compare Backpack Method vs Charm with a few seconds of work.

Instead of an intelligent discussion about tactics in reaper (and how to reward them), we would have a series of threads where people claim they are victims, and where they tell other people why they can't have opinions, instead of discussing and responding to the things being said.

I mentioned nothing about shaming, but you are free to think a post about skilled play (past vs reaper) equates to shame.

My words have repeatedly said to not blame the people who use easy button tactics, but to discuss whether having such tactics is good for the game. Yes, you can suggest something within the game is poor design without shaming those who take advantage of it.

Melee players benefit when the weakest challenges of reaper are addressed, making it relevant to the thread. Doing this also addresses your own complaints about bags of HP's on bosses, and would give you better RXP/time (yet another one of your complaints) while giving you more challenge.

An intelligent discussion would find solutions that address all the issues --> but I don't believe that is possible here.