Why play a melee character at all?

[KingNite]

What I find hilarious is that a lot of people are requesting more self-sufficiency for melee to help with their issues in reaper when giving melee significantly more self-sufficiency is why we have reaper in the first place. ^_^

And the game was much better with it. Just look at the active population pre-reaper compared to now... Because most people, even those who don't like to admit it, think like that :

Easy buttons are my favorite thing so I don't judge others for using those, but I would be hard pressed not to classify it as cheese. It is also cheese I will use without guilt or shame - mostly because I have done much more shameful cheese on a regular basis with pride. Not a single r10 completion I did was completed "as intended" nor do I have much interest in fully legitimate r10 completions because it's more difficult, more risky and takes longer. Long live the cheese and share any and all cheese with me please!

I don't think giving more self healing would solve anything for melees anyway. What they need is more PRR and HP or reduce it for casters/ranged. Frontline DPS melees like rangers, fighters paladins and barbs should have double the PRR and HP of those safe in the back. The diference now is like 10-20% at most (unless we are talking specced tanks with no Dps), ridiculous compared to the risks one must take as a melee. The amount of generic (items, PL, Etc) PRR and HP casters and ranged get at no significant cost is what really kills melees.

[Chai]

No, giving self sufficiency to melees is why we still have melees.

But dont have clerics, fvs, and the entire role of buffer/healer eroded from relevance.

They have to turn clerics and fvs into pure offense just to put them back on the board.

[cryalotmaster]

The issue with charms is that a charmed "villager" can out dps an entire party due to the damage reduction party members have but charms do not. Charming should not be the best boss dps in the game at high skulls, but I could care less if they fix it because it saves time and makes quests easier.

Easy buttons are my favorite thing so I don't judge others for using those, but I would be hard pressed not to classify it as cheese. It is also cheese I will use without guilt or shame - mostly because I have done much more shameful cheese on a regular basis with pride. Not a single r10 completion I did was completed "as intended" nor do I have much interest in fully legitimate r10 completions because it's more difficult to follow Netflix, more risky and takes longer. Long live the cheese and share any and all cheese with me please!

This is why the game is broken and a complete garbage.

Power creep out of control, broken builds, dumb AI, cheese and exploits ruined this game.

Those of you that love it are as much guilt as SSG for ruining the game.

[KingNite]

This is why the game is broken and a complete garbage.

Power creep out of control, broken builds, dumb AI, cheese and exploits ruined this game.

Those of you that love it are as much guilt as SSG for ruining the game.

Completly agree.

And this is why reaper was unnecesary and has been a complete failure. It did nothing and will do nothing to solve those problems. It made them even worse and more evident. Specially in higher difficulties. That's why almost no one plays high skulls and thats why reaper would be played by almost no one if there were no significant rewards to play it. If not for the trees reaper would be as popular as permadeath. Everyone would go to do racial PL on heroic or epic as fast as possible, and the same ppl complaining about the trees would be complaining about no one to play with due to the lack of rewards (trees) to encourage playing reaper.

[cryalotmaster]

Completly agree.

And this is why reaper was unnecesary and has been a complete failure. It did nothing and will do nothing to solve those problems. It made them even worse and more evident. Specially in higher difficulties. That's why almost no one plays high skulls and thats why reaper would be played by almost no one if there were no significant rewards to play it. If not for the trees reaper would be as popular as permadeath. Everyone would go to do racial PL on heroic or epic as fast as possible, and the same ppl complaining about the trees would be complaining about no one to play with due to the lack of rewards (trees) to encourage playing reaper.

The best part is to see the cheesers come here and cry that nobody join their groups.

That's what they asked for, now they can just duo everything.

[KingNite]

Like I said: it's not that it can't be done, I just don't see why it would be.

It is after all the same Dev crew who created Reaper. We asked for more challenge, and in response they gave us a new standard difficulty setting (replacing Elite) which awards XP at an even higher rate than the Elite BB Streak, even more power (defeating any purpose of increased challenge via stat bloat) and even comes with a slider so one can optimize their risk/reward per min ratio.

What - from any of that - leads you to believe they have any interest or will to actually address any of the issues/solutions you're looking at?


^This^ This is the result of their "increased challenge" LMFAO!

Those problems (temp HP/ozzes/etc) were already in first lama test. None of those feedback providers said a word or started a thread saying stop it till its fixed that would have been helpfull, but no. They were probably hoping to abuse it before it was fixed. So they could feel "special" again. That would have been usefull feedback rather than claping like circus seals, like most were doing, at the mess they were creating and putting all the blame on them after.

About challenge they ceirtanly provided it (if only a challenge to one's patience) . R7-10 is more "challenging" than anything we had before and certainly not the new standard, so stop runing R1-3 and start there if that is what you want. If trees defeat the challenge and are a problem for you don't use/grind it, easy.

So where's the problem? Everyone else is grinding them on R1-3 and you don't have who to play with? Get some like minded friends to run high skull with or, if you fail at that, accept that most ppl have other preferences than yours and move on.

Does it worry you that others will have it and become more powerfull than you ? Why worry so much about XP/min and what others do, I thought you were interested in challenge not other ppl power.

[KingNite]

The best part is to see the cheesers come here and cry that nobody join their groups.

That's what they asked for, now they can just duo everything.

Can't negate that brings a smile to my face everytime I check this forum and see them crying again and again in vain. But the sad part is when I log and see that thanks to that foolishness the game is in its worse state ever and as someone who played and enjoyed the game for more than 7 years, this sad.

They would have had a much harder time introcuding this piece of c*** named reaper and all that came with it, without so many tools blindly supporting their agenda in hopes to feel special again

Now they see the results that everyone who has not already quit has to suffer, them included. But well, the dev-il always pays that way and to cast a WISH spell succefully one needs to be smart and also high wisdom, something rather scarce here in this boards

[McFlay]

That seems to ignore that distance and mobility are the best defenses in the game. Being able to function at distance while mobile is the ideal situation in the game. Zero range characters have limited mobility and need to sacrifice other functionality for survive-ability that comes built into ranged characters.

The problem is that zero range characters make about as much sense as using a paint brush in a paint ball match.

This pretty much sums it up right here...its too bad the devs can't see it. Kiting/ranged mechanics in this game are so ridiculously broken the game isn't even fun anymore. I realize its an older game and they can only do so much with the existing engine, but I can't help but wonder why for years now "making the game more difficult" always boils down to mobs hitting harder. Melees can get wrecked in seconds and ranged don't care because they can kite and just avoid getting hit altogether. Maybe its time we start getting some changes that involve anti-ranged/anti-kiting mechanics and less lose half your HP in a single hit if a hold wears off type garbage.

Beyond that its just bogus how small the gap is in tankyness between melees and others. You get such a large chunk of your defenses/hp from sources other than your class/class trees in relation to what you get out of your class/class trees that unless you are a pure tank build melees can't really take a hit better than a ranged who get to mitigate a lot of damage by virtue of simply not being in the enemies attack rane, which is ridiculous.

[PermaBanned]

Those problems (temp HP/ozzes/etc) were already in first lama test. None of those feedback providers said a word or started a thread saying stop it till its fixed that would have been helpfull, but no. They were probably hoping to abuse it before it was fixed. So they could feel "special" again. That would have been usefull feedback rather than claping like circus seals, like most were doing, at the mess they were creating and putting all the blame on them after.

About challenge they ceirtanly provided it (if only a challenge to one's patience) . R7-10 is more "challenging" than anything we had before and certainly not the new standard, so stop runing R1-3 and start there if that is what you want. If trees defeat the challenge and are a problem for you don't use/grind it, easy.

So where's the problem? Everyone else is grinding them on R1-3 and you don't have who to play with? Get some like minded friends to run high skull with or, if you fail at that, accept that most ppl have other preferences than yours and move on.

Does it worry you that others will have it and become more powerfull than you ? Why worry so much about XP/min and what others do, I thought you were interested in challenge not other ppl power.

The point in that conversation where you decided to jump in is as curious as your reply to it...

The poster I was responding to really wants to find solutions to perceived issues. I was essentially asking "why bother?" since without implementation any solutions arrived at are of no use, and highlighted my reasons why I thought any solutions arrived at would not be implemented.

As to my opinions of what others do or how others play, I rarely care. While I think things like inviso-sprint-zerging to completion are lame (because I find it boring), it bothers me not one bit that folks do it; to each their own & all that. My opinion of Reaper, it's development and implementation are generally on the negative side, and that is because of what I *wanted (as a part of the group who was asking for something more challenging than Elite) compared to what was delivered. An "increased challenge to patients" as you put it (nice description btw) is not what I wanted, but is what they delivered. I couldn't care less how others are playing in Reaper or what skull # they're playing it on.

*Increased challenged to player capability via design/mechanics, not increased challenge to the character sheet via stat bloat. Zero power rewards as incentive because "Elite is too easy" is incentive enough.

In short: other players aren't "ruining my fun," the Devs are - see sig.

[slarden]

This is why the game is broken and a complete garbage.

Power creep out of control, broken builds, dumb AI, cheese and exploits ruined this game.

Those of you that love it are as much guilt as SSG for ruining the game.

i am not talking about exploits I am talking about using optimal mechanics and taking advantage of ai weaknesses.

Cute conclusion. The game is more fun when you enjoy and embrace the bugs rather than being bitter about it. I only like the ones that speed up completions. Completing high skulls, even with trickery is kind of tiresome. Running the same quest with more shots and deaths is not really more fun for me after the fist few times.

[Niminae]

But dont have clerics, fvs, and the entire role of buffer/healer eroded from relevance.

They have to turn clerics and fvs into pure offense just to put them back on the board.

Hurray for no longer having any classes whose only relevance is how much they can help other people be awesome. It has taken far too long for the "role" of buffer/healer to be eroded into insignificance.

Feel free to play the "role" of shoeshine boy or dishwasher in your next game. Even Mario is no longer a plumber.

[Spadedragon]

Where is the cheese for melee players?

[PermaBanned]

Where is the cheese for melee players?

Sitting on a pressure plate attached to spring-loaded bar?

[cryalotmaster]

i am not talking about exploits I am talking about using optimal mechanics and taking advantage of ai weaknesses.

Cute conclusion. The game is more fun when you enjoy and embrace the bugs rather than being bitter about it. I only like the ones that speed up completions. Completing high skulls, even with trickery is kind of tiresome. Running the same quest with more shots and deaths is not really more fun for me after the fist few times.

This is because you are running for pl's or farming gear, when i do tr i want to finish eveything asap too.

When you have a toon with all pl's and gear you want to have fun not use bugs to cheese content.

[PermaBanned]

This is because you are running for pl's or farming gear, when i do tr i want to finish eveything asap too.

When you have a toon with all pl's and gear you want to have fun not use bugs to cheese content.

Perhaps that's true for "you" cryalotmaster, doesn't seem to be true for "you" slarden. Probably some other "you"s on both sides & in between too ^^

[Chai]

Hurray for no longer having any classes whose only relevance is how much they can help other people be awesome. It has taken far too long for the "role" of buffer/healer to be eroded into insignificance.

Understanding the fundamental difference between having those roles and being forced to use them to succeed is lost in this community, who is bludgeoned by the mentality that if their character is not the one generating the big output numbers, then that equates to their character not contributing. Its even more hilarious when the same people complain about not being able to play alts due to the long grind, when theres no need to play alts in a game where no matter what you roll up and which class icon you choose, you all do the same thing anyway and contribution is all measured the same ONE way.

This is already ridiculous in terms of accepted game design before we even begin discussing how anything that succeeds using tactics not approved by the handicapper general is labeled a cheese build, and the nerf demand trumpet blasts throughout the pixelated land, because someone found a way to succeed which did not require large output numbers, which "ruins the fun" of those who believe this should be the only way to succeed.

Feel free to play the "role" of shoeshine boy or dishwasher in your next game. Even Mario is no longer a plumber.

We see how quickly the script flips when the "dishwasher" finds a way to succeed, and this community begins demanding nerfs, because clean dishes ruin their fun.

[cryalotmaster]

Perhaps that's true for "you" cryalotmaster, doesn't seem to be true for "you" slarden. Probably some other "you"s on both sides & in between too ^^

Yes, you are right.

But i think they should at least try to balance the game for everybody not only for broken builds like they are doing in the last few years.

This ruined the fun for everybody but the 20 guys playing broken builds.

Just see monkchers, some people cried that ranged were sub-class for years and other broken builds like shiradi were even better and didn't need any gear.

So they made a completely op/broken/stupid exploit WAI because it was just fair, right?

SSG don't know their game and how abilities work with others then some people use it to take advantage.

Broken builds + power creep and the SSG fail to prevent and fix it are the reasons that the game is dead.

[KingNite]

*Increased challenged to player capability via design/mechanics, not increased challenge to the character sheet via stat bloat. Zero power rewards as incentive because "Elite is too easy" is incentive enough.

In short: other players aren't "ruining my fun," the Devs are - see sig.

I see, maybe I misunderstood you in your early post. I thought you were saying that reaper as it is was perfectly fine with only the trees making it wrong.

Now if what you think is that reaper itself is bad designed disaster and not really as much challenging as annoying and nonsensical with or without trees, we completly agree here. I can't agree with the zero power rewards though, if "Elite is too easy" is enough incentive for you, that's fine, but it's clearly not for many others, doesn't it make sense that they add the option to get more power to those who want it? It's not like anyone forces you to use it anyway if you don't want. So again I fail to see were is the problem with the trees. Just that.

[KingNite]

Broken builds + power creep and the SSG fail to prevent and fix it are the reasons that the game is dead.

I understand you, but you fail to understand that: Broken builds + Power creep sells. That's all that matters, really. It's a long ago lost battle.

If one reads this forum one may get the impression that almost everybody hates powercreep, TR, broken builds, P2w, etc. Everybody is so cool and legal, fair and superskilled and they hate powercreep and the game being so easy thanks to it. Words, not worth any more than thin air, and, often, far from true.

They hate the PL bonuses cause they make the gap between new and vets bigger, they hate it cause it makes things easier, or so they say. Yet they have them all and grinded or payed for them all.

They hate gear powercreep and every new update loot invalidating the old loot, or so they say here. Yet they have all new shiny items from the lastest pack since they were fast to buy it on day 1 and have everything farmed by day 2.

They hate to grind slavers over and over to get a couple of items that they call power creep later, or so they say. Yet they spend 2 straight moths running nothing but slavers to ensure they are the first to have the new OP set they hate so much complete.

They hate new cannith crafting power creep moneygrab invalidating 99% of previus random and named loot, or so they say. Yet on the first XP crafing bonus weekend everyone of them dumped a few $ so they can get those new OP things as soon as possible to complain about it later.

That's pretty bad already, but the most ridiculous part comes after, cause the best solution they can come with is asking the devs to nerf us all to make it more "challenging". So they can farm OP power creep s*** anew just to complain and get it nerfed by their own demand later when the game becomes to easy. LOL

Rinse and repeat. And the show goes on and on. And it will as long as the tools keep saying one thing but doing the opposite. Quite smart of the show runners if you ask me, not so much on the other side though

[cryalotmaster]

I know they need to sell stuff but thats not my problem.

Making the game unfun and servers empty are the things that bothers me.

I have every pack, race, inventory slot, class, all my 11 toons have +6 and 7 tomes, most of them are epic/heroic/iconic completionist, all have learning tomes, etc...

And i don't spend money in this game since 2010.

I don't mind grinding something if it is fun like slaves was to me.

Slaves was the last pack i farmed gear, every other boring pack after it i completely ignored.

They can sell stuff to make money while not increasing the power creep like they did in every pack in the last few years.