Why play a melee character at all?

[Marshal_Lannes]

Really?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm3dJnhK-EI

R10 is not the baseline for anything. Any R10 example as "proof" of pro or con is irrelevant.

Per solo - I have and will solo of course, it is not my preferred play style. I have a MIC, I like to talk to people, I like to group. Reaper is about grouping. As I said to BEK and I'll say to you, come over to Orien if you want to see me play.

[PermaBanned]

An intelligent discussion would find solutions that address all the issues --> but I don't believe that is possible here.

Unfortunately, even if said intelligent discussion was had and solutions to all the issues were found... getting those intelligently arrived at solutions implemented is another matter entirely - and without an avenue for implementation, solutions are less useful than the conversation to arrive at them.

[nokowi]

Unfortunately, even if said intelligent discussion was had and solutions to all the issues were found... getting those intelligently arrived at solutions implemented is another matter entirely - and without an avenue for implementation, solutions are less useful than the conversation to arrive at them.

Thus is the forums. It's preferable to the alternative, even if futile.

A high quality thread has a chance of being flagged for later reference.

That really can't happen when the conversation evolves into shame memes instead of responding to the things someone actually says.

Note that the idea of skill level in reaper was never addressed, just the pretend victimization.


The solution to melee effectiveness, bosses with bags of HP's, and better RXP/min in challenging content can all be accomplished by making the "workarounds" good and useful tactical choices instead of workarounds.

That is of course, not an attack on anyone using workarounds --> it is about the game changes that address player complaints.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

There is plenty of empirical proof. Hundreds and thousands of players have attempted reaper hamster wheeling on melees and on ranged toons and they have decided that doing it on a melee is more painful. You have several people reporting it here if you need to read some sobby personal stories.

you literally just agreed with what i just said, that clearly there are things that are easier than melee. the above "evidence" is clearly anecdotal unless you would care to supply us with some statistically relevant numbers and their sources and does not prove the conclusion that you are apparently desperate to draw and suffuse into the ddo forums conscious perception. honestly its become sad to witness at this point.

In a game of character progression, people not playing certain archetypes is as much proof as you need to identify the weak ones. In general that's how other games, sometimes even openly, identify weak options.

you dont need to play melee to progress your character, you dont need to play any particular thing to progress your character and even if you wanted to play melee AND progress your character AND it was in fact a near useless combat style, you would still be able to progress your character by either sticking with melee and sucking it up or by tring to something else and progressing your character with it in an easier manner and then tring back to melee to enjoy both the perks and the combat style without needing to worry about character progression.

Of course if you point is that they are not ABSOLUTELY useless, in the sense that they just go in and die, then yeah you are right, they aren't. But that has never been the point.

no, character builds are not absolutely useless, players are absolutely useless. no, player characters cant just go in and die, players just go in and die. no, character builds not being useless has never been the point.

The discussion here is that there is no compelling reason, aside of flavor, to play a melee character. And you seem to agree with it when you say:

i do not agree with that statement. i do not enjoy the ranged combat in ddo because i find it binary, unrewarding, and boring. having fun playing a game is the first and foremost compelling reason to play a game and why i can only make myself play melee in ddo.

in my own judgment i am capable of performing, shall we say, adequately in reaper and thus i do not consider the fact that i will play melee in reaper to be a flavor choice.

im really interested to see a compelling argument that disputes my opinion or its validity in the effort to further the agenda that melee are too weak.

so what exactly are we arguing over here?

personally i dont feel i am arguing anything because i genuinely dont hope to convince anyone or anyone who is worth convincing that melee is actually ok in reaper and that the problem is in fact ranged being vastly more powerful than they should be, which is not news to anyone. youd think someone who quoted the exact premise of my position would be clear about that. hmm.

[glmfw1]

p.s.s.s.s.s.s. ping pong is a fun game

\o/ for ping pong!!!

I play the game for fun. I see no point in scoping out mega-builds in advance... I make class choices and enhancement choices based on what makes sense for the character and have fun seeing how well I can play the content with a character that makes sense. Would it make my character "better" if I had a 2 lvl splash of rogue? Maybe it would make me more uber, but it wouldn't necessarily make sense in terms of character development with 18 lvls of {insert the name of most other classes}.
Melee is fun if you want it to be. Spellcasting is fun if you want it to be. Firing bits of wood/metal at people from a distance can be fun if you want it to be (with added magical effects from your other hand if you so desire).
Pure classes can be fun. Illogical-in-character-terms-but-hugely-powerful-munchkin-style multi class combos can be fun. Anything in between can be fun. It's all about how you want to play the game - if a particular style is not fun for you don't do it. If it is fun, do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_XI_290cfw

[cryalotmaster]

\o/ for ping pong!!!

I play the game for fun. I see no point in scoping out mega-builds in advance... I make class choices and enhancement choices based on what makes sense for the character and have fun seeing how well I can play the content with a character that makes sense. Would it make my character "better" if I had a 2 lvl splash of rogue? Maybe it would make me more uber, but it wouldn't necessarily make sense in terms of character development with 18 lvls of {insert the name of most other classes}.
Melee is fun if you want it to be. Spellcasting is fun if you want it to be. Firing bits of wood/metal at people from a distance can be fun if you want it to be (with added magical effects from your other hand if you so desire).
Pure classes can be fun. Illogical-in-character-terms-but-hugely-powerful-munchkin-style multi class combos can be fun. Anything in between can be fun. It's all about how you want to play the game - if a particular style is not fun for you don't do it. If it is fun, do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_XI_290cfw

This is the problem.

You are having fun then in an update they ruin your fun.

What you do? Some people quit, others come to the forum to complain.

And what you get in the forum is people that don't play melee saying that melee is fine or some pro r1 team guy saying that melee is fine and all the rest that stopped playing melees because they suck in high lvl content/skulls.

[BigErkyKid]

y
im really interested to see a compelling argument that disputes my opinion or its validity in the effort to further the agenda that melee are too weak.
[...]
personally i dont feel i am arguing anything because i genuinely dont hope to convince anyone or anyone who is worth convincing that melee is actually ok in reaper and that the problem is in fact ranged being vastly more powerful than they should be, which is not news to anyone. youd think someone who quoted the exact premise of my position would be clear about that. hmm.

It seems that you are saying melee is fine wrt to the "game", but ranged is OP. However, the whole conversation was about the relative power of different styles. If you want to argue that the conversation should be different altogether, perhaps you could state that more clearly.

Let me summarize the situation:

Me: That sword is not as sharp as the arrow over there.
You: Nah you scrub you got that wrong, the arrow is just too sharp, aite?

PS - Writes a wall of text, says he doesn't want to convince anyone :P

the conclusion that you are apparently desperate to draw and suffuse into the ddo forums conscious perception.

ROLF! That's a pearl.

[nokowi]

For reaper, I don't think it really matters which is "better" as long as they each have unique play experience and can contribute to a group.

I feel it's ok for one build to be tougher to pull off than another, or take more gear acquisition, as long as it can work.



If melee needs some change, I would prefer it was about providing something unique:

--> Being close to a mob should offer some tactical advantage. This would provide competing build and play choices for a ranged toon, and give melee something for missing out on damage avoidance due to range.

One idea would be that each character within the same area provides a reduction reaper damage scaling. This could be a sigil of defense that any player can set down, and that stacks with other sigils of defense. It could be a passive ability all players have. It could be an reusable item that is in new content.

The competing play choice would be between damage avoidance through range or damage reduction through grouping together within the same area.

DDO needs more competing alternatives to increase play choices. The AI can't do it.

[Rys]

Your reply says it all.

I didn't think an intelligent conversation would be possible, and those interested can compare Backpack Method vs Charm with a few seconds of work.

Instead of an intelligent discussion about tactics in reaper (and how to reward them), we would have a series of threads where people claim they are victims, and where they tell other people why they can't have opinions, instead of discussing and responding to the things being said.

I mentioned nothing about shaming, but you are free to think a post about skilled play (past vs reaper) equates to shame.

My words have repeatedly said to not blame the people who use easy button tactics, but to discuss whether having such tactics is good for the game. Yes, you can suggest something within the game is poor design without shaming those who take advantage of it.

Melee players benefit when the weakest challenges of reaper are addressed, making it relevant to the thread. Doing this also addresses your own complaints about bags of HP's on bosses, and would give you better RXP/time (yet another one of your complaints) while giving you more challenge.

An intelligent discussion would find solutions that address all the issues --> but I don't believe that is possible here.

I was tempted to place a claw of vulkoor solo backpack video next to a R10 charm video and ask people to compare the level of skill and tactics needed. I found the level of tactics in charm completion to be quite low.

Do it then. Place it next to each other and say what you said here so you can have an 'intelligent discussion'.

[slarden]

It seems that you are saying melee is fine wrt to the "game", but ranged is OP. However, the whole conversation was about the relative power of different styles. If you want to argue that the conversation should be different altogether, perhaps you could state that more clearly.

Let me summarize the situation:

Me: That sword is not as sharp as the arrow over there.
You: Nah you scrub you got that wrong, the arrow is just too sharp, aite?

PS - Writes a wall of text, says he doesn't want to convince anyone :P



ROLF! That's a pearl.

i think he is saying to nerf ranged and not buff melee.

We saw that long ago where nobody would take arcane archers in epic raids.

It seems melee in high skulls is like dc caster was 7 years ago in epics. Very few people can pull it off but the people that did worked hard to make it happen and did not struggle. So long as we are talking about high skulls and people are not only succeeding with melee but thriving I don't see a huge problem. Builds shouldn't be balanced around average players running high skulls.

[cryalotmaster]

i think he is saying to nerf ranged and not buff melee.

We saw that long ago where nobody would take arcane archers in epic raids.

It seems melee in high skulls is like dc caster was 7 years ago in epics. Very few people can pull it off but the people that did worked hard to make it happen and did not struggle. So long as we are talking about high skulls and people are not only succeeding with melee but thriving I don't see a huge problem. Builds shouldn't be balanced around average players running high skulls.

The only reason dc casting was bad 7 y ago was epic ward.

Today no matter how skilled you are, how many pl's you have or what gear you has because high skulls are a PITA for melee toons.

Ond shot mechanics are frustating and stupid.

This killed melees and it should be fixed.

[Cantor]

Do it then. Place it next to each other and say what you said here so you can have an 'intelligent discussion'.

I'm not sure what the point was. Since nokowi is an assassin advocate I have to ask: Was the claim that a solo claw backpack was better or harder than r10 charming? Because I used to run those because it was the easiest way to get tokens for some friends who were not epic ready. I'm guessing r10 takes way more skill timing building etc. Seriously solo claw backpack is an example that the cheese has changed not that cheese is new.

[nokowi]

Do it then. Place it next to each other and say what you said here so you can have an 'intelligent discussion'.

It would better belong in a separate thread, as this is about melee.

Do you think you could contribute productively, responding to posts instead of about the other person?

I'll think about it if the answer is yes. Your shame post already has me very doubtful you have any interest in discussion.

The broader questions are what game play and tactics encourage skilled play and challenge, but these go beyond the focus on melee for this thread.

You previously had no interest in discussing charm (part of such a discussion) - so I'm guessing you once again have no interest.

[Rys]

I'm not sure what the point was. Since nokowi is an assassin advocate I have to ask: Was the claim that a solo claw backpack was better or harder than r10 charming? Because I used to run those because it was the easiest way to get tokens for some friends who were not epic ready. I'm guessing r10 takes way more skill timing building etc. Seriously solo claw backpack is an example that the cheese has changed not that cheese is new.

The point seems to be that in his opinion the level of tactics in R10 charm completion is quite low in comparison to Claw of Vulkoor solo backpack:

I was tempted to place a claw of vulkoor solo backpack video next to a R10 charm video and ask people to compare the level of skill and tactics needed. I found the level of tactics in charm completion to be quite low.

But after all it is his opinion only. And opinions vary. I personally wouldn't say something like this because I find both playstyles pretty cool and I love watching other players coming up with interesting ideas. Sneaking through the Claw of Vulkoor has been always fun just as it was coming out with the ideas how to complete R10s shortman. But that's just me.

[nokowi]

But after all it is his opinion only. And opinions vary. I personally wouldn't say something like this because I find both playstyles pretty cool and I love watching other players coming up with interesting ideas. Sneaking through the Claw of Vulkoor has been always fun just as it was coming out with the ideas how to complete R10s shortman. But that's just me.

My opinion is that no one tactic should get you through R10's.

They did a good job against stealth by adding autodetect to reapers. They also added a minimum kill count. Unfortunately they messed up how agro is shared. If stealthing through quests becomes too easy after a fix, I would advocate higher spot and listen scores on mobs.

As to charm, the game doesn't have a good way to prevent it from being a workaround without long boring boss fights. I would like to see an effort to fix this by encouraging more types of gameplay.

So I guess the difference is degree. I want many tactics and builds to be viable but not one stop-solutions (workarounds).

If stealth was operating at the degree of charm (say I was soloing R10's through stealth), I would say it also needs a fix.

The reasoning is that devs can NEVER reward high reaper RXP while players demand such workarounds. Only a concerted effort by players to really give challenge has a chance to make reaper most challenging for skilled play. I would like players to be rewarded for taking on challenge, but it just can't happen when players can get past the AI of mobs with just a few tricks.

So one preference can make reaper more about skill and challenge, and the other preference defends that status quo while complaining about it.

I have a hard time believing charm would not be a fun tactic if still an effective tool that is used along with many more tactics (more of a tactic and less of a workaround).

[nokowi]

The point seems to be that in his opinion the level of tactics in R10 charm completion is quite low in comparison to Claw of Vulkoor solo backpack:

I think you need awareness of mob positioning, mob response, or mob movement to utilize stealth. In a party, you need to be aware of what all your party members (and mob response to them) are going to do in the future. You have to know how to be in the right place at the right time or your efforts are wasted because of slow movement. When to move ahead of the party and when to remain. When to fight and when to grab traps. Where trap boxes are and which are avoidable through twitch skills. In a good game design, stealth players are encouraged to move in and out of stealth, as this creates competing options for gameplay. In the champion- reaper era of DDO, I think stealthing through most quests requires a bunch of tactics. I think you need to design for fighting mobs (HP, DPS. cc, damage avoidance, healing), along with stealth.

I'll let Rys explain what skills are needed to use charm, or what the competing build and play choices are.

[PermaBanned]

The reasoning is that devs can NEVER reward high reaper RXP while players demand such workarounds. Only a concerted effort by players to really give challenge has a chance to make reaper most challenging for skilled play. I would like players to be rewarded for taking on challenge, but it just can't happen when players can get past the AI of mobs with just a few tricks.

That's too funny. A concerted effort by players seeking a challenge is what led to Reaper to begin with. I can't imagine what chance you see for development to do it any better. (Not saying they couldn't, I'm saying they won't)

At most, I see Reaper mobs getting an undocumented Charm resistance buff, perhaps a Save every X seconds with a stacking Save Buff resulting from fails (kinda like what they did with QP getting a DC Buff after a fail) and/or some sort of auto-agro upon the Charmer when the Charm is Saved against or expires.

Tactics reduction has been the net result of nearly every game improvement & difficulty boost they've brought us. I've seen nothing to indicate steering away from that iceburg, either.

[slarden]

The only reason dc casting was bad 7 y ago was epic ward.

Today no matter how skilled you are, how many pl's you have or what gear you has because high skulls are a PITA for melee toons.

Ond shot mechanics are frustating and stupid.

This killed melees and it should be fixed.

I've seen people tearing up high skull reaper with melees but I am not one of those people. I did well at 3 skull with melee but I would say overall as a ranged character I die 3/4 as often on a ranged character vs. melee even on 3 skull. The question is really whether it makes sense to adjust melee for high skull reaper when top melees are tearing it up but average melee players like myself are not. The real question is what are better melee players doing that I am not doing besides having more reaper points. If I wasn't so lazy I would work harder at finding out rather than playing casters and ranged.

[cryalotmaster]

I've seen people tearing up high skull reaper with melees but I am not one of those people. I did well at 3 skull with melee but I would say overall as a ranged character I die 3/4 as often on a ranged character vs. melee even on 3 skull. The question is really whether it makes sense to adjust melee for high skull reaper when top melees are tearing it up but average melee players like myself are not. The real question is what are better melee players doing that I am not doing besides having more reaper points. If I wasn't so lazy I would work harder at finding out rather than playing casters and ranged.

For the 1000 time melee dps is fine, but play at higher skulls is stupid if you need to stay close to the mobs.

[slarden]

That's too funny. A concerted effort by players seeking a challenge is what led to Reaper to begin with. I can't imagine what chance you see for development to do it any better. (Not saying they couldn't, I'm saying they won't)

At most, I see Reaper mobs getting an undocumented Charm resistance buff, perhaps a Save every X seconds with a stacking Save Buff resulting from fails (kinda like what they did with QP getting a DC Buff after a fail) and/or some sort of auto-agro upon the Charmer when the Charm is Saved against or expires.

Tactics reduction has been the net result of nearly every game improvement & difficulty boost they've brought us. I've seen nothing to indicate steering away from that iceburg, either.

The issue with charms is that a charmed "villager" can out dps an entire party due to the damage reduction party members have but charms do not. Charming should not be the best boss dps in the game at high skulls, but I could care less if they fix it because it saves time and makes quests easier.

Easy buttons are my favorite thing so I don't judge others for using those, but I would be hard pressed not to classify it as cheese. It is also cheese I will use without guilt or shame - mostly because I have done much more shameful cheese on a regular basis with pride. Not a single r10 completion I did was completed "as intended" nor do I have much interest in fully legitimate r10 completions because it's more difficult to follow Netflix, more risky and takes longer. Long live the cheese and share any and all cheese with me please!