The Balance Change post

[Spoonwelder]

I did say it was quick math - my main point was that it wasn't a crushing blow to Ranged builds be they AA or Monkcher based....in the right scenario many characters will be better off.

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

[Angharad]

Finally - the day of the healbot is gone. Forcing people into that model by sponge healing heavy armor users ain't going to happen. There are far less players on and most divine players like to play a little bit more diverse things that heal Mr heavy armor without MRR. That's the real reason why MOTU killed off armored players. Every update after that added higher DPS and more HP on critters and going into melee was more or less suicide since there wasn't enough healbots around. And who want to play 'cast renew and heal on soaker?;

...

The result is that people who spent a few years investing in the game and found interest in diversity will most likely feel tempted to walk away. It's a far more realistic assessment that the fantasy that people will start grouping up and the healbots will come out of the woodwork.

I'll play... please can I play?

No, seriously, i think you're right. I'm just sad that it's true - the days of the healbot really are behind us. **tear**

[Bennum]

These changes will gimp three of my characters that are as of now only ok, I have never been able to do top tier quests and get top tier loot and I never will be able to now. Just as I was making progress on characters that don't struggle in content they get nerfed to dust because of what vets can do with them. I was just getting comfortable in EH, once my first sub is up I will likely be out of here.

[garynash7070]

First off, I am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in Turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base". You guys are taking a small sample of people and going with whatever you think. If you want to know what the majority thinks do this:

1) Create a tab on the players screen like we have for store, auction house etc.
2) Post the changes you have in mind
3) Have it only on the main player character to avoid repeats
4) Let the players either rate the changes individually or vote yes/no

Actually it's very simple. You would have a consensus. For those that don't vote or respond, then they truly can't gripe anymore about changes. This seems more fair. More accurate as well.

You guys will never get the "players" thoughts, only a small percentage. This way you get way more data to base your decisions on.

Really not that hard, that is if you guys really want to make a game the "players" want and not what a simple minority or even what you as dev's want(knowing you don't play the game like we do)!

[redoubt]

In the Wednesday video you talk about:

People enjoy heavy armor and high PRR because they can "wade into battle". I think this is true.

Then you discuss mages in heavy armor as part of the problem for balance. You fixing the bug where they get full benefit while not proficient. That is where you should stop for now. If someone spends the feats or splashes into a proficient class AND buys down the ASF, then they should get those benefits. Run with that for a while. Drop the PRR/MRR nerfs and see where we land.

If you want to discuss Vanguard Paladins, I am on my 3rd go around of such a character. Intimidate is not enough to hold agro. You need really good dps or the mobs will be pulled off of you, so losing the shield holy sword affect will require us to invest in more dps which will come at a price elsewhere. Losing PRR and MRR have the same affect in that we have to find a way to make up for it. Sure in heroic it not a big deal, but even going into EH raids my vanguard could not completely self heal; I say this to illustrate that the defense of a vanguard is not impervious. I think paladin healing is good, but I don't think Vanguards were the part that needed fixing, but they are taking two big hits (holy sword and PRR/MRR reduction.)

[Renvar]

I did say it was quick math - my main point was that it wasn't a crushing blow to Ranged builds be they AA or Monkcher based....in the right scenario many characters will be better off.

Actually, when you run ALL the numbers, not just base damage, it is a DPS drop off and there are no scenarios I can think of where the new way better. You would have to have no other additive damage sources beyond base weapon damage. Which isn't realistic unless you are intentionally gimping your character. I would advise you to do a more thorough look at the math before forming an opinion based on some quick math. The quick math isn't accurate.

The Monkcher is not better off. 10k stars is pretty weak for anything except a pure monk now. How do figure that 10k stars is still viable?

In the past, extra attacks were purely wisdom based. Now they are based on monk level. That greatly damages any heavy splash. A 12 ranger/ 6 monk with a 55 wisdom would have had a 100% chance for 2 arrows and a 50% chance for 3 and an 8% chance for 4.

Now, that same character will have 5*6 = 30% doubleshot added to their own doubleshot, which sustained, is typically between 20-50%. So around an 80% chance for a second arrow. No chance for 3rd or 4th arrow.

Over 20 seconds, Old 10k (RoF of once per second in example) would give this character 20 arrows + 20 arrows + 10 arrows + 1.6 arrows for a total of 51.6 arrows. New 10k gives 20 arrows + 16 arrows = 36 arrows. That is a drop off of 30%. (With a 70+ wisdom you are looking at 60 arrows vs. 36 arrows. Almost a 50% reduction in RoF)

All new 10k adds is RP equal to wisdom. In this case 56RP. which is roughly 50% more base damage only. No damage from on proc events or extra damage. That's not going to be close to equivalent. Unless you just don't have any gear or enhancements or ED features that add extra damage.

A level 12 monk is getting around 40-44 arrows. This is closer, but still a net loss in DPS. (especially over a high wisdom build)

Now, if you are 20 Monk (or 18), then 10k stars is better for you. This is where the value is. A 20 monk can get 250% doubleshot without much effort and then is only losing the 8% chance at a 4th arrow in comparison with the old way. The wisdom RP addition and removal of the doubleshot penalty clearly will offset this. Again, assuming a mid-50's wisdom. If you get wisdom up to the 70's or higher, old 10k starts to perform better again. But, really, I don't see that full monks have that much to worry about.

For anyone splashing heavily, it is a clear loser, even at middling wisdom numbers.

[KevinMullins]

first off, i am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base". You guys are taking a small sample of people and going with whatever you think. If you want to know what the majority thinks do this:

1) create a tab on the players screen like we have for store, auction house etc.
2) post the changes you have in mind
3) have it only on the main player character to avoid repeats
4) let the players either rate the changes individually or vote yes/no

actually it's very simple. You would have a consensus. For those that don't vote or respond, then they truly can't gripe anymore about changes. This seems more fair. More accurate as well.

You guys will never get the "players" thoughts, only a small percentage. This way you get way more data to base your decisions on.

Really not that hard, that is if you guys really want to make a game the "players" want and not what a simple minority or even what you as dev's want(knowing you don't play the game like we do)!

great sugestion!!!!!

[Grimreich]

For the most part, I like what you're doing here to mitigate some power imbalance, but I think there are better ways to do some of it.

New Keen/Improved Critical: I'm assuming this is based on the idea that it's easier to clear mobs with higher damage/crit multiplier weapons based on the fewer hits it takes to kill something, the more quickly you can kill multiple enemies. Understanding that there's already a ton of ways to improve attack speed, I still think it would be more balanced to have something that increases attack speed/threat range based on multiplier. For example: 18-20/X2 = 40% attack speed, 19-20/X2 = 20% attack speed, 20/X3 = +1 threat range. This is a rough idea, but with the right balance, this will allow all weapons to kill things big or small at roughly the same pace. This would also allow you to remove the attack speed bonuses from single weapon fighting, maybe reduce the feats in the chain to two and split the difference of melee power to 5 each. This would also give two handed weapons that edge again.

Issues in balancing fighters: Fighters in D&D are about versatility of consistent passive effectiveness or specializing in 1 weapon (or in DDOs case, weapon type.) Doing something like changing Weapon Specialization to a flat 5 Melee Power, changing Kensei to be more critical hit oriented and improving the core enhancements all the way up the board for all the trees. Kensei with a capstone that increases critical threat and range +1 (in addition to and stacking with the tier 5 enhancement) and +1 to critical damage before modifiers per core enhancement. This will give fighters their own niche and keep with the theme fighters often take in pen and paper with weapon master. Stalwart Defender with 4MRR per core enhancement, Vanguard with some melee power per core enhancement (to keep up with Paladins, but keep them different.)


If you want to balance magic damage reduction, but are having trouble with it due to Evasion: Remove Evasion and have light/no armor reduce 100% of magic damage on a successful reflex save, medium armor 50% and heavy armor 25% or some better balanced numbers. But also keep MRR as you plan to change it.

While I appreciate that MRR/PRR is a powerful mechanic, 4 feats is rough even on a Fighter. Perhaps reduce it to 2 and make them +8% or +10% to PRR/ +15(flat)MRR each? At levels 7 and 14?

[ThrakThor]

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Sev~

This for me is the most personal change because they were the red-headed step child now they are simply the abandoned red headed step child. My l.28 pure Artificer is really going to have little going for him. I did not even know he had this bug going for him and felt that he was under performing compared to his peers so now he'll do even worse. "Hey, can I haz Deadly?" will be the cry of the party. I do not expect to be fully on par with melee or full on archers as I do have spells (but let's be honest Blade Barrier is not end game any more and I do not have the SP pool for Ruin and Hellball) but with the changes to 'balance' rogues/Pali/other hybrids Arti's are now even more damaged. It feels like they are where Warlocks will be in a few years, they were so fun and cool and had lots of shiny new toys and abilities then the devs forgot about them and only throw them a bone every now and then (I will admit the new repeater got me excited until this change occurred).

Warlock changes are needed in Heroic fo' shizzle but single target DPS did not need the nerf. And, as others have pointed out in EE they are not always over powered or often the king of the heap. That may be hard to code but look at changing the blast damage autogrants, maybe keep it at 2d6 all the way up to l.10 they really ramp it up to 9d6 by l.20. Or make it d3 base damage and you get an auto grant feat at 12 to make it a d4, then a d6 at l.16. Make the Epic Damage Feats +4d6 but drop the % increase on bursts a bit further, or even a l.30 feat to give you a d8 base damage. There are ways to keep the single target feasible but the AoE damage respectable and not make it too OP in heroics.

Cheers

[Souless]

I am opposed to all of these changes. There are ppl here that have said it better than I ever could.

The things you are about to do in the name of balance is a joke.

Do you really think the PRR/MRR removal for armor increases our options?!?!?!

Do you really think a barb on the front line can survive with a full second delay on the healing proc?!?! ?!

Do you think you could design a class without needing to change it at your first opportunity?!?!?!

Do you think reducing DPS will enhance our game experience?!?!

LOLOLOLOLOlolololololololololol


The Bytcher~

[Renvar]

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

I don't know about "reasonable". "Max possible" sounds more accurate. Also, don't bother listing the elf one. You ran out of AP's. It would take 90 to have that plus the capstone for AA and the tier 5 DWS.

[CeltEireson]

I don't know about "reasonable". "Max possible" sounds more accurate. Also, don't bother listing the elf one. You ran out of AP's. It would take 90 to have that plus the capstone for AA and the tier 5 DWS.

He missed the 2% guild bonus to doubleshot so not quite the max possible! And also Zeal of the righteous - +50% doubleshot, well for a few seconds before it drops.

[CeltEireson]

Nothing to see ere

[bloodnose13]

The changes are designed to cut back on the power of two weapon fighting Paladins, Vanguards, and fix the fact that Paladin 14 hybrids are by many players' estimation the best missile characters. Throwing weapons are not affected by Holy Sword.

Sev~

seems to be like you are looking in wrong place for that "too much dps" on paladins, i would look at the insanely overpowered cleaves you gave to knight of chalice with 3 and 5 w bonuses, or maybe its the retrubition instakilling everything around them, ill repeat myself again and again but giveing kotc those was like sticking little ducttape to fix a problem that requires bigger redesign.

you change holy sword and/or anything that is a general use effect for all paladins, and in process everyone playing character that is mostly defender gets hit with that nerf the most, you make ddo more and more to be dps game but you make paladins that are basicly a watered down clone of fighter with self healing, maybe its time you actualy looked at each of those trees separately and made each of them work separately (each of them should have internal balance of dps abilities, defence and utility, themed for paladin as a class and their abilities), and not kotc as all out dps and defender just as a supplement for vanguards or kotc. why cant you make holy sword work similarly like you do with keen and work best only for certain "safe" weapons, i would be all up for faith weapons but thats bit too restricting, but maybe there should be a set of base martial weapons that would benefit from that spell the most and would not be overpowered in a process, just equalized to others.

in my opinion vanguard should be made into prestige available to all classes same as harper and paladin trees completely redesigned. im pretty sure that after bit of rebalancing lots of other classes that can and use shields would love that prestige, i know i would on warpriest cleric for example.

as for divine grace, if i understand it right, you want to circumvent charisma completely???? on a paladin????? so smites can be completely ignored on non kotc paladin even now, and layons on epic levels can be used for powering light the dark that does not use charisma at all, so whats the point of spending any points into charisma at all. if you want to change that feat make it LIMIT how much charisma it can apply to saves based on % paladin levels in all levels.2 paladin levels in 20 levels, would be what 10%? = 10% of charisma to saves. please dont trivialize another of paladins iconic element. you did that already by giveing smites and layons as part of a sentinel destiny to anyone who wants it.........

about prr and mrr i would like to suggest you make it either not work at all or have limited effect against traps, high prr/mrr are able to run through even the EE traps with no issues and i think that dumbs down the need for rogues and trap disabling charactes, most of time i see only traps being disabled after everyone runs through them just for exp bonuses. make traps dangerous again.

[Manganakus]

First off, I am opposed to most of the changes. You, being the developers, have not listened like you say you do to players. You might have listened to some players, players council, and a few others in Turbine, but you couldn't possibly have come to a legitimate consensus regarding the "player base". You guys are taking a small sample of people and going with whatever you think. If you want to know what the majority thinks do this:

1) Create a tab on the players screen like we have for store, auction house etc.
2) Post the changes you have in mind
3) Have it only on the main player character to avoid repeats
4) Let the players either rate the changes individually or vote yes/no

Actually it's very simple. You would have a consensus. For those that don't vote or respond, then they truly can't gripe anymore about changes. This seems more fair. More accurate as well.

You guys will never get the "players" thoughts, only a small percentage. This way you get way more data to base your decisions on.

Really not that hard, that is if you guys really want to make a game the "players" want and not what a simple minority or even what you as dev's want(knowing you don't play the game like we do)!

The best suggestion so far since I seriously doubt more than 10% of the players of the games will react or event read this thread in the forum. So having a minority of 10% giving arguments (or not) and decide for the whole is unfair.

An easier way would maybe to put a link on the launcher that leads toward the survey on our Turbine account page.

If I was Evil, I would even say put a different weights for VIP, Premium, long time players and so on...

[Renvar]

He missed the 2% guild bonus to doubleshot so not quite the max possible!

He also called it "for any ranged character". What he meant to say was "for any pure 20 ranger". Because no other ranged class or ranger splash can get the AA Capstone and the DWS Tier 5. If you try to go elf, it takes 15 AP to get to AA. Spending 41 points there makes it impossible to spend 31 in DWS for the last 20%, even if you have 5 ranger levels.

[Renvar]

The best suggestion so far since I seriously doubt more than 10% of the players of the games will react or event read this thread in the forum. So having a minority of 10% giving arguments (or not) and decide for the whole is unfair.

An easier way would maybe to put a link on the launcher that leads toward the survey on our Turbine account page.

If I was Evil, I would even say put a different weights for VIP, Premium, long time players and so on...

I disagree. Given that even on the forums more than half the posts about the IC/Keen changes show an incorrect understanding of A) how IC/keen works today and B) how it will work in these new changes, if you go with an open vote by the entire player base, you will have a bunch of people voting on changes who have no clue what the changes even mean. Or, even worse, are voting on them with an erroneous understanding.

"I will vote for the holy sword change because it will make my 15/5 pally/rogue do even more DPS!"

[barecm]

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

I did a doubleshot build for a ranger a few lives back. The armor did not stack with the quiver or skirrmisher's bracers. If I remember correctly, my max standing doubleshot was 57% and with Divine Crusader I could get well over 100% for a short period.

[Caprice]

This for me is the most personal change because they were the red-headed step child now they are simply the abandoned red headed step child. My l.28 pure Artificer is really going to have little going for him. I did not even know he had this bug going for him and felt that he was under performing compared to his peers so now he'll do even worse. "Hey, can I haz Deadly?" will be the cry of the party. I do not expect to be fully on par with melee or full on archers as I do have spells (but let's be honest Blade Barrier is not end game any more and I do not have the SP pool for Ruin and Hellball) but with the changes to 'balance' rogues/Pali/other hybrids Arti's are now even more damaged. It feels like they are where Warlocks will be in a few years, they were so fun and cool and had lots of shiny new toys and abilities then the devs forgot about them and only throw them a bone every now and then (I will admit the new repeater got me excited until this change occurred).

I hear you. This was a longstanding bug, as in probably years old, but it was acceptable in the past when Artificers and Rogue Mechanics were both relatively weak performers. However now that Rogue Mechanics are overperforming I guess it is considered a priority. Alas but this means that your Artificer, who was indeed already low on the DPS totem pole, gets knocked a few pegs lower. It won't be a competitive class until after it gets its enhancement pass sometime in 2016. If you want to feel powerful again you might try Rogue Mechanic, or if you haven't done any Ranger Past Lives yet now would be a great time as that adds +2 ranged damage as a passive bonus (stacking up to 3 times) and Ranger is in a pretty good spot right now. Then you'll be even better when Artificer is brought up to par in the future.

[mikarddo]

Note for a ranged focused character 75% standing DS is a reasonable goal:

8% item(2 quivers also random gen bows)
5%shadow arrows
20% AA capstone
20% DWS Tier 5
10% Epic Feat
3% profane shadow striker armor
9% doubleshot from EPL feats
---
75%
+3% if elf/morninglord

Temporary buffs of
20% - Killer
6% Warchanter Reckless Chant

Note, for a halfling monkcher with 12 monk levels using AA tier 5 the actual number is 29% and thats only at level 28.
Ship, quiver, EPL and epic feat.