The Balance Change post

[Ellihor]

Says the person who admits to having never played Heroic ToEE?

Yeah NO!

It's not just single mobs it's the fact that pretty much all new quests since Wheloon have involved adding more and more mobs to each spawn!

Every one of those mobs is at least as powerful as the ones in earlier quests of the same level but there are far more of them!

Champions have also been added to every single Elite and Hard Quest in the game! It took concerted Player effort to get the Devs to remove them from KORTHOS!

So yes Mob Power has gone up significantly since the Armour Up Changes!

Right, so because one single quest is hard all heroic content is now hard (despise 99% of all other quests not being so).

PS: champions are not exclusivity from ToEE

[Thrudh]

Tactics.. meh.. whats the point.. worthless on bosses..and a waste of feats overall.

I love my tactics build... I'm going to seriously look at upping his fighter levels now.

I think all the proposed changes are very good and very balanced... good job devs!

[Lonnbeimnech]

This has been thought out pretty well I would say. Not all changes will effect my toons, some will. I hope the transfer canbe fixed before Lamannia goes live, so people can see just how this will effect their toons.

I would like to suggest that one reason things end up going live is so few people when on Lamannia actually play the content, they tend to make the new class, take it to end game 2 or 4 times, then call it there. How can you tell if warlock is over powered if you only have warlocks?

I totally get why holy sword (Sword, not bow) should not effect ranged. Logically, it would not. The further nerfing, I am not sure of. I only have one paladin, and it gets so little play as it is just not as powerful as a tank that the guild has.
The multishot, well, I am concerned about my 3 rangers, and how much they will have to be changed again.

Warlock, I am not sure that will go far enough to balance them out with other casters. However, I do agree that most casters in end game better have a really good tank in front of them to survive, even then, good luck.

I also get that players have found ways to use things for their benefit that tilts game balance. One question I have on that topic is, do the mobs get the same changes as we do? That alone is a balance I think is off. I mean in epics the whole party of 6 may have 6,000 hp, while a boss can have over 200k, and they bring mobs as well. Mob casters often get to go through walls while we don't. If the game is to be balanced, can we look at those?

Mobs have vastly inflated hp and players have vastly inflated damage output because 'OMG I JUST CRIT FOR 14,000!!!!!!1111eleven', when in pnp a maxed out barbarian would hit for about 25 damage against mobs with 37hp. people like seeing big numbers *shrugs*

[patang01]

The point is, now you have to choose. I don't see, with these changes, barbs and fighters splashing rogue to use evasion. Even if they do, taht's a hard choice. If you have to think hard about one decision, that means it is balanced. You are saying like the only thing you had to give up to make evasion work was PRR.

Yes, I honestly think these change will not take us to the same level we were before. 15% more magical damage is not going to break any build.

Right now it's just eveyone in heavy armor. After the changes you have to choose. And guess what, most people will stay on heavy armor.

Why was splashing rogue not a choice before? That makes no sense. This is why people either splashed or built for evasion before. Because it was the only reasonable damage mitigation. It's no more harder now than it was back when. That's simply just wishful thinking on your part. I can't think one single thing in this change that make what was before any less 'hard' or easy. Pick what class to splash, build like before. Done.

Yes I am saying that the only change now from prior to armor up is PRR and MRR. Dodge is unchanged. Evasion is unchanged. Difference being that PRR will be more effective now than before making evasion builds slightly better. Seems like a plus right there.

15% more magic damage; well I don't know where the number comes from but assuming thats right is huge for pot healing and cocooning fighters. It means less for barbarians that can still temp heal. The change to blood rage seems minor enough but we'll see. The only problem with barbarians is that they can't heal themselves while raging.

I see that by observation myself. The first to die is usually fighter builds. Even with self healing. Partly because they're the least effective at huge spike damage. You will see a move where some fighters go into full armor tactical mode (few) but most will migrate to melee like Paladin and Barbarian. Provided their self healing works the same. Skipping the armor is no big thing. There are plenty of BTA armor to pick up. Weapons are more of an investment so I doubt we'll see a huge amount of melee go strictly ranged unless they once came from ranged and already have the investment in stuff.

So probably more vanguard fighters, less Pally vanguards and more 2 handed fighting Pally's. Barbarians will most likely be unchanged. I don't know how this will effect Swashbuckers - but possibly a change of weapon of choice.

2 weapon fighting and 2 handed fighting fighters will probably be gone. Or very rare. That's just the nature of toons that were on the brink of self healing before and now will have to soak more damage.

Personally I will drop my tempest for an AA. It takes a lot of damage that is slightly mitigated by evasion and higher DPS. With slightly lower DPS it means taking more damage (fighting longer). Also with change of divine grace less effective use for his 2 Pally levels. That's fine. I got good bows on him so I'll see what AA can do instead. That's an easy choice and I don't have to invest more in stuff. Just a change from strength to dex.

My Fighters will be gone. I'll drop both in favor of one Vanguard. My Pally fighter experiment (Sword and board) gone. It's just too feat starved to worry about trying to be more effective in tactical to offset drop in DPS. I'll keep my Pally 2 handed. He'll still fairly good at self healing eventho he'll take a little bit more damage now.

I keep my barbarian for now. I think he'll be fine. I'll drop one warlock (was just doing it for past life anyways) and go back to Sorc. Sorc is safe. No change to Shiradi casting. The other can remain Warlock altho I will use him less. The more they carve the damage back the less point it makes to have something slow shooting like that. Try using Warlocks against red named in ToEE and it's a pain. You'll fight them for 4 minutes running backwards because the over all crit damage will most likely peel down even more now with these changes.

My Arti will lose some DPS due to bug fix but the problem with it remains the same - no good destiny that can enhance overall runearm and such. If you don't have knives eternal as a rune arm you might as just be there for the buffs. Altho I still like tactical detonation - it works even in EE (not always but good enough).

As I see it I will slim down my heavy armor users more and go more ranged, evasion and arcane. Like before. As much as I love running in circles pot healing I won't go back to that. And yes, 15% is a lot when the best you can get is a cocoon with a cool down.

As a side note. I won't use my Monks. I got 2. They're screwed. Particularly the staff one. That hybrid seems pointless with worse crit profile. Oh well. Maybe after the Monk pass. And I might use my rogues more - Mechanic is still okay and the other, assassin might get some use - altho with the change to knives crit profile it feels like I just wasted my investment there.

[Thrudh]

Some comments about the fighter feats:

1. These require fighter levels. They can be taken with fighter bonus feats or regular feats.
2. We don't expect to rebalance monsters around Fighters with all these feats. Fighters who go all out on tactics are expected to reach 95% chance on most monsters (possibly excluding some rare bosses / raid bosses, who will often be immune to many tactics regardless.)
3. We don't expect all fighters who want to use tactical feats to take all of these new feats. This is largely why they are not a progression, but rather four distinct feats. Characters with 20 Fighter levels might opt to take just the +8 and that's enough (with other gear, STR, etc.) Characters with fewer Fighter levels won't have access to the best bonuses (as well as fewer feats, of course), so they might struggle to reach the same heights as someone who dedicates more class levels to Fighter.
4. Similarly, the armor feats can be taken one or some at a time. It's not really an all-or-nothing, and a 20 Fighter might skip the first one or two in favor or other bonuses.

These feats help power up the Fighter class, reward taking more Fighter levels, fit into the theme of "Fighters get more feats!", and help provide some differentiation for builds. It matters a bit more if you want to spend your final 2 levels on Fighter vs. another class, and we don't expect every player to make the same decision. We're happy for Fighter to remain interesting for multiclass builds, while also rewarding purer builds. We feel these eight new feats spread across levels 2-16 helps with many kinds of characters.

This is excellent thinking... As long as you don't balance monster saves with the new feats, this should work perfectly... My barbarian/rogue/fighter is a tactics build, and can stun and trip most stuff now, so I know these feats are not required in today's game... I may take a few more fighter levels for the extra tactics boost, or maybe even go mostly fighter instead of barbarian... because tactics is what I built this guy around. But I don't feel like I'm REQUIRED to take extra fighter levels to build a viable tactics build...

What this will do is allow me to swap some feats for some enhancements/gear, giving me a slightly higher stun and trip DC AND freeing up some enhancement points/gear slots.

[PsychoBlonde]

Addressing only the double shot proposed change, I think it is a good thing only if going over 100% is actually obtainable without being pigeon holed into running on Divine Crusader. There will be a need for more stacking sources.

See the change to Manyshot and Ten Thousand Stars. Both of those will easily boost you over 100% doubleshot when they're active.

[FranOhmsford]

Right, so because one single quest is hard all heroic content is now hard (despise 99% of all other quests not being so).

No - ToEE is just an example!

Trial of the Archons, Heroic Wheloon, Devil's Gambit, Heroic High Road, Heroic Storm Horns - All are significantly buffed in mob numbers compared to older quests of the same Level!

Are they actually more difficult than those older quests - Some are, some aren't but that has more to do with other things {Coal Chamber and Crucible for instance were never about the Mobs!} - Just comparing the mobs in say Rainbow in the Dark to Friends in Low Places - Heck yeah the second is more difficult {especially the end fight!}.

Running with the Devils has always been an outlier of mob difficulty but the end fight of Friends in Low Places is significantly more difficult than even that!

How about comparing Gianthold Lvl 13s to Demon Assault or The Devils Details from Trials of the Archons? Only Foundation of Discord comes close and that's because of the insanity of the End Fight in said quest!

And IQ2 versus Storm Horns = Lol! IQ2 is a piece of pie next to What Goes Up!

PS: champions are not exclusivity from ToEE

I didn't say any such thing!

I specifically stated

Champions have also been added to every single Elite and Hard Quest in the game!

- I also noted that it had taken concerted effort just to get the Devs to remove them from KORTHOS!

[hit_fido]

If the only thing you change is the 30 MRR you get from heavy armor, it will now become a choice between heavy armor for free and higher PRR, or loose that PRR and inveest, not only class levels, but quite some stats, feats and items to make your evasion work. It is a though decision, and that means it is balanced.

If you were truly looking the bigged picture, you would see that. But you are not, you are only looking for that 30 MRR small picture. In fact, the change in the PRR formula is a much bigger reason for the heavy armor plague we have now than the 30 MRR they gave to it.

Heavy armor is not "for free" for all classes and builds, same as evasion isn't "for free" for all classes and builds. The PRR difference between light and heavy is 24 at full BAB, which if 30 MRR is "small picture" to you, means you are now ironically devaluing heavy armor.

I'm going to wear the best resistance item I can find even if I don't have evasion so that's a non issue. Stats is a non issue too, we're talking what, maybe 3 save difference because I left dex at 8 instead of 14? And if you want to talk feats, the only feat that was ever situationally necessary for high reflexes was insightful, which coincidentally obviates the stat concern for a sizable subsection of builds.

So this all paints no different a picture than there was back when 2 splashes were widely adopted. After the proposed changes, the mitigation choice boils down to +24 PRR and evasion vs +48 PRR. People greatly favored 2 splashes in the past when the mitigation choice was similarly unbalanced in favor of evasion. I think they will again, so I'm suggesting a more incremental approach to toning down heavy/medium armor. You disagree, and that's fine. But you don't need to keep misrepresenting my position.

[WNxDaCraw]

I have some additional thoughts about this changes.

This is a great opportunity to rework Keen and Impact Ability to be good property rather then meh.

My suggestion is based on assumption, that most if not everyone but casters, take IC feat rather than try find Keen or Impact ability on item. Simple because IC feats are probably the most powerful heroic feats in game, and won't use weapon slot for redundant property (higher levels add some more +x[W] but you know what I mean). Suggestion below need some work to do, but that will bring Keen / Impact property back to live in DDO.

Consider these changes:

• Keen / Impact I (+1 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W]
• Keen / Impact II (+3 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact III (+5 Base price modifier) + 1 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact IV (+7 Base price modifier) + 1 [W] and +2 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact V (+9 Base price modifier) + 1,5 [W] and +2 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• ect.

OR:

• Keen / Impact I (+1 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W]
• Keen / Impact II (+3 Base price modifier) + 0,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact III (+5 Base price modifier) + 1,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact IV (+7 Base price modifier) + 2 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• Keen / Impact V (+9 Base price modifier) + 2,5 [W] and +1 critical threat range for Piercing & Slashing / Bludgeoning weapons AND Stack with IC feat.
• ect.

You should balance Base price modifier of course, but overall that will be a great changes for diversity in game. And without double bonus from IC feat, no OP by any means.

Maybe Keen / Impact weapons, will get some attention from players rather than auto-sell loot.

Sorry to tell you but this is a NERF not a balance update. Its kind of refreshing to see you think they would do something to make you better. You need to play another game if you want that.

[Cordovan]

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch or YouTube.

[Ankiil]

My first impresion was hmm ok.
Very powerful builds gets nerfed. Some gets changed a lot.
ohh monchers wont like to change build and playstyle - but it might still be ok (just watch playtesting before implementing it).
A slightly lifted eyebrow No MRR for armor. All using armor of any kind gets weaker. All using weapons get a litle weaker with change to IC.
Then it hit me - changes to IC they are nerfing my soon to be endgame swashbuckler Forest brush hook user. Why you bastards . My life is ruined I must rage quit.
Heh me too its not just the others. I must rethink my build to make it work, but it is posible. Adapt to the challenge.
I might have to work together with spellcasters to get through alot EE, but that should be part of D&D.
I think and hope it will balance the game but I have to test it.
I hope monsters loose MRR too (take more dammage from as they dont have resistances as far as I can see), then spellcasters might be on level with warlocks and best ranged and melee builds.
,,...,. fill in punctuation as needed

[Ellihor]

Why was splashing rogue not a choice before? That makes no sense. This is why people either splashed or built for evasion before. Because it was the only reasonable damage mitigation. It's no more harder now than it was back when. That's simply just wishful thinking on your part. I can't think one single thing in this change that make what was before any less 'hard' or easy. Pick what class to splash, build like before. Done.

Nope. As I said in another post, people didn't use heavy armor because the PRR formula was different. PRR and shadow guardian are the main reasons people use heavy armor, not MRR.

Yes I am saying that the only change now from prior to armor up is PRR and MRR. Dodge is unchanged. Evasion is unchanged. Difference being that PRR will be more effective now than before making evasion builds slightly better. Seems like a plus right there.

The previous PRR formula was extremly rewarding low hanging fruit. After they changed it, people started building higher PRR.

15% more magic damage; well I don't know where the number comes from but assuming thats right is huge for pot healing and cocooning fighters. It means less for barbarians that can still temp heal. The change to blood rage seems minor enough but we'll see. The only problem with barbarians is that they can't heal themselves while raging.

I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance. As things are right now on live it's no brainer go heavy armor.

[Ellihor]

Heavy armor is not "for free" for all classes and builds, same as evasion isn't "for free" for all classes and builds. The PRR difference between light and heavy is 24 at full BAB, which if 30 MRR is "small picture" to you, means you are now ironically devaluing heavy armor.

We are finally agreeing! So what will happen is: classes that have evasion will be in light, classes that don't will be on the most heavy armor they can use. Or they splash for evasion but I don't see that happening because you will not be able to make it work. Doesn't it sound all right to you? I mean, instead of everyone going for heavy?

I'm going to wear the best resistance item I can find even if I don't have evasion so that's a non issue. Stats is a non issue too, we're talking what, maybe 3 save difference because I left dex at 8 instead of 14? And if you want to talk feats, the only feat that was ever situationally necessary for high reflexes was insightful, which coincidentally obviates the stat concern for a sizable subsection of builds.

Ok, tell me how to build a 18 fighter or barb / 2 evasion and get mid 80s reflex. Because I don't know how to, without gimping my DPS. Breakdown please.

So this all paints no different a picture than there was back when 2 splashes were widely adopted. After the proposed changes, the mitigation choice boils down to +24 PRR and evasion vs +48 PRR. People greatly favored 2 splashes in the past when the mitigation choice was similarly unbalanced in favor of evasion. I think they will again, so I'm suggesting a more incremental approach to toning down heavy/medium armor. You disagree, and that's fine. But you don't need to keep misrepresenting my position.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS

[Thrudh]

I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance.

Exactly... Tough choices mean the devs are doing it right... I have a light armor evasion guy, and a heavy armor PRR/MRR guy. The builds are very different.

There's a lot more to making evasion work for a fighter or a barb than just splashing rogue. Without an excellent reflex save, evasion is worthless.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and less DPS vs +48 PRR and more DPS

This.

[Kriogen]

...
Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS

No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

[merkovah]

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)


...................... This is a horrible change to 10k stars.

As in, REALLY BAD and VERY POORLY THOUGHTOUT. You people have skills and intelligence, DO BETTER.

It makes monk splashes TOTALLY worthless. IS THAT YOUR GOAL? TO MAKE EVERYONE A RANGER ARCHER?

As it works now, its really easy to have a second arrow ... 24 wisdom is reasonable. And it takes work to reach a third, 42 wisdom for epics is alright. And makes sense for monks.

HOWEVER .... Taking 6 monk levels to be able to shoot ONE EXTRA ARROW is ALREADY a massive cost.

Shooting one extra arrow with some more DPS, and have a +30% doubleshot for monk 6 splashes makes this skill and monk splashes totally worthless.

There is no way to get the extra arrow during heroics.

And there is where longbows are already beyond worthless.

Longbows ALREADY are way subpar to crossbows, they are slower and do less damage.

And you want to make them worse while saying you are making it better. Where's the integrity ? You aren't making it better ... stop telling us you are.

Please give some explanation for these changes and restore our faith in your capability as developers.

---

For the record, my ranged arcane archer is my favorite character ... and the only reason I play DDO.
It has been years of effort to become semi-functional in the game ; if this character becomes worthless, I simply will lose the desire to play and simply won't invest any more time.

It would just be disheartening after so much time and effort.

And I am looking forward to some of the changes and going through the game with another heroic life ; changes aren't an issue.

Bad changes are ; and the lack of listening to the community demonstrated by the developers in regards to some of these changes.

Some of the changes are real bad ; and rather than just brushing off our comments as the expected belly-aching ... TAKE THE TIME TO LISTEN TO AND RESPECT THE PLAYER BASE.

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

I am for balancing the game out ; don't make it stone-age useless and regress the game to its underpowered dysfunction of four and five years ago with only 3 or 4 effective builds.

Balance the game so we enjoy it.

As it stands, arcane archers already are nowhere near your 'swashbuckler' benchmark in terms of DPS ; and your proposed changes are only going to make it worse.

[KevinMullins]

Well since these changes are going to happen a couple things need to take place in my opinion:

1. +20 heart of wood for every character
2. Remove champions , because these thread admits it failed to do what it set out to do make the game harder. ( at least give an option out button for champions )
3. A way to deconstruct thunderforge weapons and armor to get back ingredients ( to re-craft with ).
4. You need to add a lot of new players to game or merge servers to compensate for loss of players due to changes.

[hit_fido]

We are finally agreeing! So what will happen is: classes that have evasion will be in light, classes that don't will be on the most heavy armor they can use. Or they splash for evasion but I don't see that happening because you will not be able to make it work. Doesn't it sound all right to you? I mean, instead of everyone going for heavy?

If by agreeing you mean we both think losing 24-30 PRR and MRR will not make the game unplayable for anyone, yes. But though you keep wanting to make this just about +/- 30 MRR, that's missing the point, again.

Ok, tell me how to build a 18 fighter or barb / 2 evasion and get mid 80s reflex. Because I don't know how to, without gimping my DPS. Breakdown please.

Correction: choice boils down to +24 PRR, evasion and **** DPS vs +48 PRR and great DPS

You're the one who introduced the claim that DPS would be (what? excrement?) in order to have evasion. So you need to make the first move to actually support your position on that. But again, if you're trying to imply I don't see a trade off for taking evasion, you are not correct. But it's a similar trade off as there was when we saw predominance of evasion based builds. Most players were willing to trade off some DPS for evasion. I believe most players (not all; not you) will be again.

[hit_fido]

No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

Players made a conscious decision back then that the damage mitigation outweighed so called "full ****** dps".

Really, Turbine? Ok. "Full mentally differently-abled DPS"

[Ellihor]

If by agreeing you mean we both think losing 24-30 PRR and MRR will not make the game unplayable for anyone, yes. But though you keep wanting to make this just about +/- 30 MRR, that's missing the point, again.

Sorry, I didn't understood this

You're the one who introduced the claim that DPS would be (what? excrement?) in order to have evasion. So you need to make the first move to actually support your position on that. But again, if you're trying to imply I don't see a trade off for taking evasion, you are not correct. But it's a similar trade off as there was when we saw predominance of evasion based builds. Most players were willing to trade off some DPS for evasion. I believe most players (not all; not you) will be again.

Ok, lets start with the capstone alone. On a paladin. 10 mlee power to start with, and 2d6 light damage. On a barb: eye of the storm. On a fihter: 15% doublestrike. All these you also loose 2 points in stat. Now you still have to get that save. How do you build reflex on a fighter or bar? There's just no way, unless if you stop being a fighter or barb. You could also be dex based or int based and gimp you DPS by using inferior weapons. That's the point. It's just not doable. People will hold theyr heavy armors.