The Balance Change post

[hit_fido]

Really? Because I don't plan splashing 2 rogue on my barb. And if was going to build a paladin or fighter i wouldn't also. You are saying like you just had to have evasion and you automatically avoid all incoming magic damage. As if it was easy to make reflex work on endgame without giving up DPS.

When I look back before the efforts to equalize heavy/medium armor, I see a game world brimming with 2 monk and 2 rogue splashes. Your personal story is fine, I'm looking at the big picture at a point in time when players by far favored splashing for evasion because it offered more mitigation in almost every case than any option using medium and heavy armor sans evasion.

My position is that removing armor-based MRR entirely swings the game back (too far) toward that. I would prefer they fix the proficiency issues, change the PRR formula as they proposed, and either delay or only make a modest MRR reduction for now, then see how it goes. If you want to argue why that position is bad for the game, go for it.

[FranOhmsford]

When I look back before the efforts to equalize heavy/medium armor, I see a game world brimming with 2 monk and 2 rogue splashes. Your personal story is fine, I'm looking at the big picture at a point in time when players by far favored splashing for evasion because it offered more mitigation in almost every case than any option using medium and heavy armor sans evasion.

My position is that removing armor-based MRR entirely swings the game back (too far) toward that. I would prefer they fix the proficiency issues, change the PRR formula as they proposed, and either delay or only make a modest MRR reduction for now, then see how it goes. If you want to argue why that position is bad for the game, go for it.

Further to my previous point about trap skills making the Rogue Splash a real easy Choice I'd like to add that Pre MotU and the Armour Up buffs many Non Wiz/Rogue Rogue Splashed characters didn't even bother with trap skills!

You were lucky if they could even Open Locks {As Dex Builds this was at least a possibility}.

So yes - Evasion Splash was a big thing back then!

[Mirta]

Disclaimer: I returned to DDO about two months ago after a three+ year break.

Wow. Great thread and still reading through it, but here is my view:

You still missed it. All you're doing is upsetting people who put a lot of time and effort into a specific build to validate underused classes. Reducing my barbarian's self healing will not force me to play a fighter. It doesn't work that way and you just don't understand that.

These changes seem to be aimed at reaching a goal that hasn't been established, or is irrelevant. What are you trying to accomplish? Why? You cite balance. What is balance? Why is it so important to you?

Oh noes! There aren't enough rangers or sorcs in the game! Who cares? If you want to make these classes more valuable then make them more powerful instead of nerfing the alternatives. Give clerics better healing abilities so barbs won't be forced to take blood strength! I tried playing a cleric once since returning to the game and was either unneeded due to self healing or irrelevant because players die too fast (see DoJ boom, for example).

From my viewpoint barbs, pallies, and warlocks are the most balanced classes as they present the view of actually being epic when it comes to epic content. Everything else is underpowered. People don't play barbs instead of fighters due to minor advantages, but because fighters are irrelevant to endgame EE! Beef up the weak classes to make them relevant; don't gimp the few useful ones to create the illusion of balance.

When I left the game a few years ago, any class could be useful in endgame with enough hard work. No matter how I build out a fighter or sorc now, no amount of grinding and no play style will make them awesome. I don't choose barbs and warlocks because they are better; you force me to by making the alternatives so weak.

[CrackedIce]

It isn't so much crit enhancers as much as anything that altered the crit profile had to be coded in a poor way in order not to double, reducing the ability to grow crit profiles as the game aged. So fixing IC to not continuously double crit profile abilities (whether it was an enhancement, feat, or item ability), they lock IC down. This allows all other sources of crit expansion to not double, providing the original intent to be delivered.

Obviously some classes need their enhancements changed. Some items will need their enhanced profiles adjusted. But taking this first step and monitoring results and feedback is the first right step in fixing a problem and tailoring the solutions to a bigger problem as old as the game.

In regards to Holy sword: Obviously it should not affect ranged. Period. That is not the intended design for that ability. Second, people could exploit its buff. These changes fix both of those problems. Do I think it should have stayed for offhand? Sure, however it was clear in testing that having it on offhand and mainhand kept it far from non pali twfers. Reducing MP of twf feats and making holy mainhand brings things more into alignment/performance in damage, across all classes.

You sir, see a bigger picture than what many of these posters are posturing on about. I would think it goes without saying the thief-acrobat will have their staff crit range modified to be +2 rather than +1 considering staffs is inherently a poor man's weapon. I would also think that daggers would increase +1 to match the inherent range of a kukri as these are obviously the intent of the these enhancements.

These first set of changes are baseline in mostly focused on the outliers (which is not including bugs atm - druid/tree builds) of WAI features. From there, the Devs can more readily use their scalpel as time progresses. I honestly think that the current mindset of the Devs are way beyond past history when it comes to game balance and seeing a bigger picture.

The unfortunate truth is that DDO just does not have the staff to put out enhancement pass in one go (its been taking years) and only at the close are they looking back to see what needs to be reigned in and modified. I would expect that adjustments will need to be made over the next sixth months - the Devs are setting the stage for what DDO will be in years to come. This is a double-edged sword: on one hand, it livens the game and keeps it fresh, on the other disgruntles players for loss of money/time spent on their builds.

[unbongwah]

biggest loser: Forester Brush Hook in DC
* currently 11-20x4
* postpatch 15-20x4

It's even worse if you're playing a Swashie / Ravager using Brush Hook:

• Current: 19-20/x3 base -> 17-20/x4 Swashbuckling -> 16-20/x4 Celestial Champion -> 11-20/x4 IC:Slash -> 9-20/x4 Crit Rage
• New: 19-20/x3 -> 17-20/x4 -> 16-20/x4 -> 15-20/x4 (no bonus from Crit Rage)

Obviously, that's an outlier, and I'll readily admit a 60% x4 crit profile is hella insane. But it emphasizes my earlier post (among others), which is that one of the biggest losers of the proposed crit changes will be Swashbucklers using unconventional named weapons. Considering Swashbuckling is what made these otherwise-mediocre weapons useful in the first place, that seems pretty unfortunate.

Plus nerfing Improved Crit also nerfs Celestial Champion by proxy, unless Turbine doubles the crit bonus to compensate. If they want us all to run in LD instead, they should just say so...

On the flip side, pure barbs and THF/SWF pallies should see the smallest nerfs to their DPS: best case no change (e.g., greataxe LD barb), worst case -15% crit chance (e.g., eSOS DC pally). If one of the underlying assumptions of this rebalance is that barbs & pallies are currently overperforming, the proposed changes miss the mark, because unconventional Swashbucklers and Sireth Acrobats will take a much bigger hit to DPS than they will.

[Chaoscheerio]

I made the point in my first post that removing MRR is not the way to balance the game.

In my opinion the point we're at right now is that we're about as balanced as we possibly could be. Our power levels match the defenses and opposing power levels of mobs, with the exception of heroic. But nobody cares about heroics anymore, right?

If you want to balance the game you need to adjust not just the "overpowered" builds but the mobs themselves because right now they're being balanced for character power level. We're strong, so you make them strong to fit. Removing MRR will not fix this.

I find the entire idea of calling this pass a Balance pass to be ludicrous. It's not about balance, it's about nerfing things. Balance takes a lot more than blanket nerfs to everything.

[Ellihor]

When I look back before the efforts to equalize heavy/medium armor, I see a game world brimming with 2 monk and 2 rogue splashes. Your personal story is fine, I'm looking at the big picture at a point in time when players by far favored splashing for evasion because it offered more mitigation in almost every case than any option using medium and heavy armor sans evasion.

My position is that removing armor-based MRR entirely swings the game back (too far) toward that. I would prefer they fix the proficiency issues, change the PRR formula as they proposed, and either delay or only make a modest MRR reduction for now, then see how it goes. If you want to argue why that position is bad for the game, go for it.

Giving MRR to armors is not the only thing that changed. We got MRR from other sources, we got a bunch of revamps and we got more PRR. Before the armors up change, people didn't use heavy armor because the benefit it did to PRR was too small, and the formula had a diminishing return even higher than what it is now.

If the only thing you change is the 30 MRR you get from heavy armor, it will now become a choice between heavy armor for free and higher PRR, or loose that PRR and inveest, not only class levels, but quite some stats, feats and items to make your evasion work. It is a though decision, and that means it is balanced.

If you were truly looking the bigged picture, you would see that. But you are not, you are only looking for that 30 MRR small picture. In fact, the change in the PRR formula is a much bigger reason for the heavy armor plague we have now than the 30 MRR they gave to it.

[Robai]

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

That's interesting!

EDIT.
Does this mean that ESoS gets nerfed? Really?
I mean instead of crit range 15-20 now will be only 16-20?
I don't like this change then!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Heavy armor still has 30DR, which is a pretty good reason to use it.

[Jyndark]

I hope all of our characters are receiving a +20 heart of wood when these updates go live.

[Ellihor]

I made the point in my first post that removing MRR is not the way to balance the game.

In my opinion the point we're at right now is that we're about as balanced as we possibly could be. Our power levels match the defenses and opposing power levels of mobs, with the exception of heroic. But nobody cares about heroics anymore, right?

Are you saying at heroics we have too much defenses for the mobs or too few? If you are saying it is too few, please give evidence to back that up because you would be contraticting all the feedback people are giving.

If you want to balance the game you need to adjust not just the "overpowered" builds but the mobs themselves because right now they're being balanced for character power level. We're strong, so you make them strong to fit. Removing MRR will not fix this.

I find the entire idea of calling this pass a Balance pass to be ludicrous. It's not about balance, it's about nerfing things. Balance takes a lot more than blanket nerfs to everything.

Only level 30 mobs are being balanced for the current player power and that is still in progress.

Balance requires nerfing what is broken. These are not blanket nerfs. These are fix to thing that shoud never had happened to start with.

[FranOhmsford]

Heavy armor still has 30DR, which is a pretty good reason to use it.

Uh what?

DR is a special ability confined to certain items, feats and enhancements NOT a guarantee on every Hvy Armour in the game!

My Lvl 20 Stalwart Fighter wearing Lvl 15 Firebreak {yeah he hasn't got an Epic Armour yet} has ZERO DR!

[Lonnbeimnech]

Without huge amounts of gear or being one specific fighter build? Yes. Yes it is.

No I don't think we need to make it easier so to say. We need to make it so that new players don't feel discouraged from playing. Consider the fact that the only heroic runs done are elite. That's not going to change as long as bravery is a thing. Make them more accessible for first lifers and new players. Low level quests SHOULD be easy. I shouldn't need a freaking hireling for elite cannith crystal because it breaks in two hits from mobs.

I don't understand this argument.

Because people only group for elite, new players shouldn't need a hireling to solo elite???? Is that it?

[Chaoscheerio]

Here's part of what makes heavy armour so incredible that people seem to be totally overlooking.

Stalwart/Sacred Defender stances. They're incredibly accessible, require minimal splashing, and gives MASSIVE benefits. For 3 fighter/paladin levels and 13 AP you get +20% HP, +25PRR/MRR, and +3 to all saves.

Want to make MRR less of an issue? Balance this insanity first.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Uh what?

DR is a special ability confined to certain items, feats and enhancements NOT a guarantee on every Hvy Armour in the game!

My Lvl 20 Stalwart Fighter wearing Lvl 15 Firebreak {yeah he hasn't got an Epic Armour yet} has ZERO DR!

Fran, I know you know what I'm talking about, ffs.

[Apollos713]

Disclaimer: I returned to DDO about two months ago after a three+ year break.

You still missed it. All you're doing is upsetting people who put a lot of time and effort into a specific build to validate underused classes. Reducing my barbarian's self healing will not force me to play a fighter. It doesn't work that way and you just don't understand that.

This might not be the case for you, but many people in this game will get away from a class and play new ones due to changes like this. They're called Flavor of the Month for a reason. As a player whose main is a Monk who TR'd from a Favored Soul, I'm with you that I'll play what I want to play regardless of these kinds of updates.

[FranOhmsford]

Here's part of what makes heavy armour so incredible that people seem to be totally overlooking.

Stalwart/Sacred Defender stances. They're incredibly accessible, require minimal splashing, and gives MASSIVE benefits. For 3 fighter/paladin levels and 13 AP you get +20% HP, +25PRR/MRR, and +3 to all saves.

Want to make MRR less of an issue? Balance this insanity first.

This is another good point.

And something I really don't get is why the Devs think Nerfing Holy Sword or Warlock Spellpower is the way to go when it's things like the above that are the real problem!

Stalwart/Sacred Stances are definitely necessary for Fighters and Paladins but they shouldn't be so easy to get through Multiclassing!


A heck of a lot of Enhancements should be tied to class level in how much power they give - Yes you could still take Stalwart Stance at Lvl 3 Fighter/Paladin and max out the PRR and Saves boosts in said stance at that same Level BUT if you only got a 3rd of the benefit unless you had a minimum 6 Fighter/Paladin Levels and then you only got 2/3rds of the benefit until you had a minimum of 9 Fighter/Paladin Levels it would make people think again about the benefits of said splash.

Barb Rage Buffs I've argued time and again should be granted bonuses upon reaching certain Barb Levels {Extra Rage at Lvls 3,6,9, Extend Rage at Lvl 2,4,6, Power Rage at Lvl 4, 8, 12 etc.} rather than Enhancements in separate trees!

[Starla70]

This has been thought out pretty well I would say. Not all changes will effect my toons, some will. I hope the transfer canbe fixed before Lamannia goes live, so people can see just how this will effect their toons.

I would like to suggest that one reason things end up going live is so few people when on Lamannia actually play the content, they tend to make the new class, take it to end game 2 or 4 times, then call it there. How can you tell if warlock is over powered if you only have warlocks?

I totally get why holy sword (Sword, not bow) should not effect ranged. Logically, it would not. The further nerfing, I am not sure of. I only have one paladin, and it gets so little play as it is just not as powerful as a tank that the guild has.
The multishot, well, I am concerned about my 3 rangers, and how much they will have to be changed again.

Warlock, I am not sure that will go far enough to balance them out with other casters. However, I do agree that most casters in end game better have a really good tank in front of them to survive, even then, good luck.

I also get that players have found ways to use things for their benefit that tilts game balance. One question I have on that topic is, do the mobs get the same changes as we do? That alone is a balance I think is off. I mean in epics the whole party of 6 may have 6,000 hp, while a boss can have over 200k, and they bring mobs as well. Mob casters often get to go through walls while we don't. If the game is to be balanced, can we look at those?

[archerforever]

I see people saying it's the end or furyshot. I say Thank God! I always hated furyshot, it never made any sense to me that archeRs should do more burst damage than other classes. I mean, what's the explanation for that?

1- Bow user has the LOWEST ATTACK Speed in the game
2- Bow = worst critical range (20 only)
3- Archers without manyshot and/or 10k star are the worst DPS in all heroic levels of all class in the game

For all theses reasons, archers had to shine on epic levels as fury shooter.

- Shiradi champion is already the worst ED for an archer, and with the manyshot/10k star nerf, it will be even more worse.
- Fury of the wild will not be avaible anymore for archers as i mentionned in a previous post, cause of the slow attack speed and the nerf of MS/10k star, archers will not be able to have a good adrenaline regen rate.
- Legendary Dreadnaught is not bad, but some quest are unplayable in this ED cause of the bug removing all your blitz charges as soon as you pass through a door making a loading screen (the worst quest for this is madstone crater)
- Divine crusader can be avaible only for "Celestial Champion" (+1 critical threat range) and "Zeal of the Rightous" for +50% doubleshot and ranged power ( hope it will not make party freeze for 50 seconds anymore)

As it is going, archers will be the worst thing to play in DDO as it used to be... from lvl 1 to lvl 28...

The only solution should be to have bows base damages increased by 3 (1d8 ---> 3d8 ) and/or a super high attack speed buff (50%) but as it will not happen .... Let s just focus on crossbows to have better critical range, better attack speed and literally forget bows for good.

[FranOhmsford]

- Shiradi champion is already the worst ED for an archer, and with the manyshot/10k star nerf, it will be even more worse.

Yes Shiradi should be buffed for Archers {and stop being a Caster only Destiny} but worse than GMoF or Exalted Angel or Magister for an Archer? REALLY?