The Balance Change post

[merkovah]

Well since these changes are going to happen a couple things need to take place in my opinion:

1. +20 heart of wood for every character
2. Remove champions , because these thread admits it failed to do what it set out to do make the game harder. ( at least give an option out button for champions )
3. A way to deconstruct thunderforge weapons and armor to get back ingredients ( to re-craft with ).
4. You need to add a lot of new players to game or merge servers to compensate for loss of players due to changes.

Agreed. All of this.

Positive changes will increase player base.

[Raithz]

So unfortunately the Two Weapon fighting chain have been Nerfed since it will no longer give melee power , also Possibly if it is a balance issue perhaps you could consider checking how much dmg/dps the barbarian do since it enhancement trees and two handed fighting chain also seem way too powerful also if for some reasons you believe two weapon fighting is too power maybe since ranger using two weapon fighting is more powerful now since update 28 then I think that would be more a specific ranger issue then a ambiguous two weapon fighting issue. but two weapon fighting also affect rogue , fighter , paladin if you choose the path of two weapon fighting and especially monk who uses hands-wraps , and any melee that use two weapon fighting. since it now seems that the two handed fighter bulid are more powerful and they seem to do more dps then the two weapon fighter bulid . and also two handed fighting also seem considerable way too powerful and especially for barbarian.

[UurlockYgmeov]

OOH!!!

Cleric Domains? Yes Please!

original holy sword created a physical sword - not a bow. :P

[Seikojin]

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)


...................... This is a horrible change to 10k stars.

As in, REALLY BAD and VERY POORLY THOUGHTOUT. You people have skills and intelligence, DO BETTER.

It makes monk splashes TOTALLY worthless. IS THAT YOUR GOAL? TO MAKE EVERYONE A RANGER ARCHER?

As it works now, its really easy to have a second arrow ... 24 wisdom is reasonable. And it takes work to reach a third, 42 wisdom for epics is alright. And makes sense for monks.

HOWEVER .... Taking 6 monk levels to be able to shoot ONE EXTRA ARROW is ALREADY a massive cost.

Shooting one extra arrow with some more DPS, and have a +30% doubleshot for monk 6 splashes makes this skill and monk splashes totally worthless.

There is no way to get the extra arrow during heroics.

And there is where longbows are already beyond worthless.

Longbows ALREADY are way subpar to crossbows, they are slower and do less damage.

And you want to make them worse while saying you are making it better. Where's the integrity ? You aren't making it better ... stop telling us you are.

Please give some explanation for these changes and restore our faith in your capability as developers.

---

For the record, my ranged arcane archer is my favorite character ... and the only reason I play DDO.
It has been years of effort to become semi-functional in the game ; if this character becomes worthless, I simply will lose the desire to play and simply won't invest any more time.

It would just be disheartening after so much time and effort.

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

I am for balancing the game out ; don't make it stone-age useless and regress the game to its underpowered dysfunction of four and five years ago with only 3 or 4 effective builds.

Balance the game so we enjoy it.

As it stands, arcane archers already are nowhere near your 'swashbuckler' benchmark in terms of DPS ; and your proposed changes are only going to make it worse.

Huh? IIRC the MS/10k change is about lag and perf, not balance. The balancing act in it is allowing doubleshot to wrap (with or without MS or 10K), and increasing ranged power while in MS or 10k.

This just means that people will roll their main destiny as DC so they can have 3 doubleshot boosts running.

[Ellihor]

No. First you have to be alive. Its the reason why there were so many evasion builds before Armor Up.

Yes, and MAAANY things changed since armors up, not only 30 MRR from heavy armor. I did a number of posts about that, I don't feel like explaining this again for everyone who brings this point.

[Buddha5440]

SO SPEAKING FOR ALL OF US WHO HAVE PAID FOR THIS GAME WITH OUR TIME AND DEVOTION AND MONEY AND LIVES ... BE VERY VERY VERY CONSCIOUS AND LOOK AFTER YOUR PLAYER BASE.

You DO NOT speak for ALL OF US so please don't claim to.

[Spoonwelder]

On the manyshot changes I just did some simple math (yes someone will redo it and do it better but I think the overall conclusion will not be changed too much)....

Very simple math = manyshot=4xRoF Vs. (RoF*(1+DS%+ 4xBAB(DS boost)) x 4xBAB(for ranged power boost) such that any DS%>5% is an improvement in the manyshot period plus you get full DS in the cooldown.

Old - with doubleshot removal therefore x=RoF=1
Manyshot 20 seconds 400%x = 8000
Cooldown 100 seconds 100%x = 10000

Total =18000

New: Assuming 24BAB and 25% standing DS
Manyshot - 20 seconds (DS% + 24x4) = ~221%RoF * 20xRangedpower196%= 8660
Cooldown -100 seconds (DS%) = ~125RoF * 100=12500

Total = 21160

This is before the Ranged Power upgrade with a fairly low DS%. So I think Ranged is coming off fine with this change.

[Mirta]

I'll play what I want to play regardless of these kinds of updates.

Yes, that is part of what I was trying to say. I am going to play what I like to play. I like playing a barb not because of the damage or self healing, but because it is fun while still being useful. I play this game to have fun. It is a game, after all. I don't have the effort in me any more after a hard day's work to come home and play a fighter and have to manage a bunch of different boosts, abilities, tactical attacks, etc. Micromanaging a gimpy toon isn't fun to me. I like a barb because I rage and kill. The worst part of it is having to keep refreshing my frenzies every 40-50 seconds. That, and all those fighter tactics are pointless in raids because everything is either immune or already dead by the time I get to it. If I had ANY chance to use these skills successfully on red/purple named then I might reconsider putting the effort into playing a class like fighter, but for now they are too much effort for no reward.

The same can be said about warlocks. They're easy to play while still being useful in endgame.

Edit: To clarify: I'm not saying simplify the game. I like planning and managing my builds and inventory between quests, but if I have to put in a ton of effort while questing at least make it worthwhile.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Sorry, I didn't understood this



Ok, lets start with the capstone alone. On a paladin. 10 mlee power to start with, and 2d6 light damage. On a barb: eye of the storm. On a fihter: 15% doublestrike. All these you also loose 2 points in stat. Now you still have to get that save. How do you build reflex on a fighter or bar? There's just no way, unless if you stop being a fighter or barb. You could also be dex based or int based and gimp you DPS by using inferior weapons. That's the point. It's just not doable. People will hold theyr heavy armors.

Plus if you are going fighter or pally anyways you can put a few points into the defender tree and get another 25 prr and mrr out of that heavy armor.

[FranOhmsford]

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch or YouTube.

Can someone please tell Sev that Tieflings in DDO don't have tails.

Tieflings in DDO also tend to have quite small Horns that can simply be hidden by the Helms/Hats we wear {If a player wants to see his/her horns they can show helmet off or show goggles on.

DDO is not Neverwinter - We don't need Tieflings who look like they've stepped straight out of SW:TOR!

Heck I'm against Tiefling PCs full stop but if you're going to insist on putting them into the game as PCs they should look like the Tieflings we already have in game!



P.S. Neither Tiefling nor Aasimar are in any way Core Player Races!
Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls and for Eberron Kalashtar should all be ahead of those two!

[merkovah]

You DO NOT speak for ALL OF US so please don't claim to.

Oh snap, aren't you witty. Have another one?

[Yendor_the_pokermage]

Like normal people are over reacting to the changes.

frankly I'm all for everything in this pass, infact Kyo is currently a Dex Build Pure ranger in Deepwood/Dreadnaught and just from looking at the changes to Manyshot I'm getting a huge dps increase, solely for the fact that I don't Manyshot as often as most players and now ill be able to pop it constantly when its off timer.

there was a post where someone said ranged power was capped but top end in archers focus I cap out at 234 ranged power and now ill be able to manyshot without dblshot penalty woot!!


MRR should never been on armour anyway, unless that specific armour gave you it.

Divine Grace need this badly. I know to many players who think 2pally splash is more important then their main class. Which should never be the case.


I cant wait for the Monk pass which really needs to be looked at....Please make the monk stances like Sorc paths. you Pick your Path and each path gets the same amount of respect.

and finally I'm so disappointed that you havnt looked at Turn Undead and updating it to fit in with the higher lvl cap and CR mobs, This needs to be done ASAP

[Chaoscheerio]

I'm starting to see some of the points made here.
The more I discuss it with guildies the more I realize that MRR is a problem.

My current build(13 Druid/4Ranger/3Fighter) is hitting 115 PRR and 78 MRR in light armour+ large shield with 2 warlock and PDK past lives at level 22 in Dreadnought.
I can see how that's an issue now.

I'm sorry if I came off as aggressive. I do tend to overreact. My one issue now is that, what about people that don't splash fighter or paladin? How will they be able to survive EEs? Stalwart/Sacred stance is STILL incredibly powerful, and that's the main issue I have. It's too strong for too minimal investment. These changes do nothing to balance that.

[Mryal]

Here's part of what makes heavy armour so incredible that people seem to be totally overlooking.

Stalwart/Sacred Defender stances. They're incredibly accessible, require minimal splashing, and gives MASSIVE benefits. For 3 fighter/paladin levels and 13 AP you get +20% HP, +25PRR/MRR, and +3 to all saves.

Want to make MRR less of an issue? Balance this insanity first.

This.
The removal of MRR on armors isnt actualy doing anything.I was against the implementation of MRR, since it, for me at least ,is obviously way better than using evasion wich is a either you have enough or its useless system.Im all for toning it down, but doing it this way is wrong.
It should be tonned down on the paladin stances, at least for non shield users.I do not see how any of those changes will make people go away from Paladin its actualy going to make them go torwards paladin with the lower defenses on other classes.
On paladin you get the best saves, heavy armor stances for the best mrr/prr.
On top of that,you also get great dps trought holy sword wich for some stupid reason is NOT getting ANY nerf if youre not actualy using an off hand object or wep to do damage! THF/SWF paladin will use holy sword with 100% effectiveness as it is today while other weapon styles will not.How does this makes any sense ?

[Ellihor]

Plus if you are going fighter or pally anyways you can put a few points into the defender tree and get another 25 prr and mrr out of that heavy armor.

Not to mention 20% hp and 6 str...

[UurlockYgmeov]

Can someone please tell Sev that Tieflings in DDO don't have tails.

Tieflings in DDO also tend to have quite small Horns that can simply be hidden by the Helms/Hats we wear {If a player wants to see his/her horns they can show helmet off or show goggles on.

DDO is not Neverwinter - We don't need Tieflings who look like they've stepped straight out of SW:TOR!

Heck I'm against Tiefling PCs full stop but if you're going to insist on putting them into the game as PCs they should look like the Tieflings we already have in game!



P.S. Neither Tiefling nor Aasimar are in any way Core Player Races!
Kobolds, Hobgoblins, Orcs, Gnolls and for Eberron Kalashtar should all be ahead of those two!

Tails would be cool..... but I'd live without one. :P (Ebberon Tiefling's don't have tails... call it a lore thing)

I can understand why Tieflings over other races because it is much more sell-able.

Let the Gnomemaggon begin!

[sjbb87]

Here are our current goals and design challenges:


[LIST][*]Two Weapon Fighting builds are dealing too much DPS. This is generally because on-hit effects now scale with melee power, and we've relaxed many internal cooldown limits on to-hit effects. We expected Two Weapon Fighting builds to scale quickly when we changed on-hit effects, and balanced the fighting style feats to compensate, but that was a world before Assassin and Tempest were updated, and players largely equated Two Weapon Fighting to those trees. Now that those are updated we can look at re-adjusting the two weapon fighting feats.

Sev~

please explain me in detail what you guys are planning here.
For I will not be caught off guard with my builds it took me several years to construct by

edit:
ps: Tempest and assassin are Glass cannon....They need do more dps than others classes

[Cleanincubus]

I did want to let folks know that Severlin joined me on the livestream today to take Q&A on this for about a half hour. You can find the archive on Twitch or YouTube.

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

[patang01]

Nope. As I said in another post, people didn't use heavy armor because the PRR formula was different. PRR and shadow guardian are the main reasons people use heavy armor, not MRR.



The previous PRR formula was extremly rewarding low hanging fruit. After they changed it, people started building higher PRR.



I just did simple math from 60 MRR to 30 MRR (that's about my barb values). So, do you think all these figthers and barbs are going to splash rogue and use light amor because of these 15% magical damage? Hhhmmmm, hard to choose, isn't it? That's the point: balance. As things are right now on live it's no brainer go heavy armor.

I don't think 'all those fighters and barbs' are going to splash rogue. I think people will move away from heavy armor and look at other type of builds like they did before. You fail to see the reason why heavy armor was adopted - not because of PRR formula - because damage mitigation made self healing possible. Barbs are okay now because of self healing. Without it there wouldn't be as many because no one wants to soak heal DPS. Period. You'll see a drift away from melee. Not just melee and evasion because prior to these changes few were melee and evasion. Most were ranged and evasion. Because range means less chance to take damage from physical attacks and evasion from magical.

I see fighters die today. Lots of HP, blue bar. The pittance of self healing only works with proper mitigation and substantial heal amp. It works nicely on barbarians that can self heal through most damage. But almost without fail in the groups I join the fighter will die on EE. Lack of damage mitigation and self healing. Sure, if there's a healbot nearby, most likely not. Change damage mitigation and the issue of self healing gets worse. It's not brain surgery, it's math.

And that's why swashbuckler will still be viable. They've found the formula of self healing, damage mitigation (evasion, displacement etc) and still will do ample damage. After this change I see ranger going ranged, barb remain favorite melee and swashbuckler adopting. I see fighter going special with sword and board tactical. They'll have to deal with less DPS but maybe there will be some changes to tactical feats that makes them even more useful. One can hope. I'm sure vanguard will stick around.

It will most like spell the end to tank builds. I don't see how they can bridge damage mitigation and loss of DPS (heavy investments in feat).

The truth is that the changes to MRR and PRR would've been better suited for a all class type of tree like Harper. A tree that instead added different tactical improvements, MRR and PRR improvements and allowed people to make truly hard choices on an enhancement level. Since like with Harper it's something anyone can buy into no matter class it would come with less restrictions. Choices like making improved trips into sweeps, stunning blow being stunning cleave etc. So now your investment gets tougher and fairer and if you want damage mitigation it's still possible through balanced choices.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Off topic here, but related to the Stream...

The comments/questions about Hide armor is that there is no random loot Hide armor in the game anymore. There are only a few old quest chains that drop +1 enhanced BtA versions as quest rewards. Same goes for Padded armor and Studded Leather armor as well.

one would hope that during the cannith crafted / random loot pass would update and include these things.

Topic thread started here:
For Cannith Crafting / Random Loot Update Pass