The Balance Change post

[FeartheBow]

In the beginning I was told to take bow strength feat. So my Strength would apply to bow damage. I did this but when I examine the bow it says DEX. Now whatever has happened within the mechanics of the game is now wanting me to have a high Wisdom score to make Manyshot work correctly. So now I am totally confused. As a half elf aa ranger do I go strength? Dex? or wisdom? and do I still need bow strength?. It just seems totally screwed up at the moment Oh and one other thing is now I am supposed to have some sort of spellcraft or something like that along those lines that's supposed to "boost" my elemental arrows damage? Why not just hand the Cleric or the Wizard the bow now? It went from complicated to common core math <----this means totally screwed up. FUBAR!

[Faltout]

In the beginning I was told to take bow strength feat. So my Strength would apply to bow damage. I did this but when I examine the bow it says DEX. Now whatever has happened within the mechanics of the game is now wanting me to have a high Wisdom score to make Manyshot work correctly. So now I am totally confused. As a half elf aa ranger do I go strength? Dex? or wisdom? and do I still need bow strength?. It just seems totally screwed up at the moment Oh and one other thing is now I am supposed to have some sort of spellcraft or something like that along those lines that's supposed to "boost" my elemental arrows damage? Why not just hand the Cleric or the Wizard the bow now? It went from complicated to common core math <----this means totally screwed up. FUBAR!

So you're buffled by the choices?

STR: go deepwood and tempest with dual heavy weapons. Utilize stunning blow. Switch to bow for some ranged damage and activate manyshot while at it.

DEX: go tempest and deepwood with light weapons (scimitars usually). Use bow for some ranged damage and activate manyshot while at it.

DEX: Go arcane archer and deepwood and choose the elemental imbues. Slot a spell power ruby somewhere and do some elemental damage.

DEX, WIS: Go arcane archer and deepwood and choose the CC imbues. Slot a spell focus sapphire somewhere and get your enchant DCs up to 50 where they'll proc reliably in EE content.

WIS, DEX: Go play a monkcher and choose the CC imbues. Use 10k stars and manyshot.

From your post I get that you're trying to have all. No, you have to choose what you want to play. Either mainly melee or elemental damage or CC abilities. Choose your main stat according to what you decide.

[elg582]

So, was the intention to remove bows as a viable option from the game?

It used to be that the best tactic was to switch to TWF while manyshot and 10k stars were on cooldown; now the best tactic is to never pull the bow out to begin with.

More evidence that no one at Turbine is actually allowed to play the game.....

[gwonbush]

I was running ToEE and I found a weapon that was forgotten in the IC changes: Crainum Cracker (and the corresponding epic version). It was a club with a 19-20/x3 crit multiplier (17-20/x3 with IC), but didn't get the increased crit range that other named items got with the IC changes to stay at the same level, which would be a 18-20/x3 base (17-20/x3 with IC).

[sithhound]

Not saying the nerf wasn't needed, powercreep has been in full effect for awhile now, but what about +6 tomes? If you get a +6 supreme tome, that is 36 points. It takes 2 tr lives to go from 32 pt build to a 36 pt build. Then to go from a 36 pt build to a 72 pt build, all you have to do is spend alot of $$$. Admitedly, it is alot of bank to do so, but that doesn't make anything fair about it.

[elvesunited]

Not saying the nerf wasn't needed, powercreep has been in full effect for awhile now, but what about +6 tomes? If you get a +6 supreme tome, that is 36 points. It takes 2 tr lives to go from 32 pt build to a 36 pt build. Then to go from a 36 pt build to a 72 pt build, all you have to do is spend alot of $$$. Admitedly, it is alot of bank to do so, but that doesn't make anything fair about it.

On the plus side power gamers who put down hard cash for +6 Tomes for all stats for each of their characters are financing the game for the rest of us cheapskates.

[unbongwah]

Not saying the nerf wasn't needed, powercreep has been in full effect for awhile now, but what about +6 tomes? If you get a +6 supreme tome, that is 36 points. It takes 2 tr lives to go from 32 pt build to a 36 pt build. Then to go from a 36 pt build to a 72 pt build, all you have to do is spend alot of $$$. Admitedly, it is alot of bank to do so, but that doesn't make anything fair about it.

If DDO was a competitive PvP game, I would be upset about "P2W" elements. Fortunately, it's not: it's primarily a PvE coop-based MMORPG with an almost superfluous PvP component. So if other players want to spend moolah on tomes, or raid bypass timers, or a "P2W" race like Bladeforged, or whatever, it doesn't impact my enjoyment of DDO in the slightest. And if the knowledge that other people have "better" characters than you because they were willing & able to spend money that you didn't - in a game which doesn't even have real leaderboards, much less a serious competitive element - somehow ruins your enjoyment of DDO, well, that's your problem to sort out, not mine.

Furthermore, the powercreep introduced by +6 tomes is relatively minor: +3 dmg here, +3 DCs there, +84 HPs at endgame, etc. Class imbalances bother me because it means some players are at a serious disadvantage compared to others solely because they picked the "wrong" class to play; either because they weren't aware of the imbalances or they wanted to play their favorite D&D class. Never mind endgame viability: game mechanics which encourage the player base to pick from a subset of "worthy" builds because some classes are a lot more powerful than others is a poorly balanced game, IMHO.

Which is not to suggest every class should be equally good at everything, of course; that just gets boring. And perfect class balance is probably an impossible-to-solve optimization exercise. But every class should be able to contribute meaningfully because they should all have some signature set of useful abilities which makes their class / PrE unique.

EDIT: "useful" being the key qualifier here. Druids are meant to be the primary summoner class in D&D; but summoning is so weak in DDO, it's almost like a bad joke to suggest it's druids' "signature move."

[sithhound]

On the plus side power gamers who put down hard cash for +6 Tomes for all stats for each of their characters are financing the game for the rest of us cheapskates.

True story. Guess I should be saying thanks. lol.

[esojiul]

Greetings.

We've seen a lot of community feedback, both public and private, about our ongoing plans for balance. These are some changes we are considering to increase game balance.

As with any post that outlines power reductions (aka nerfs) I am sure there will be a lot of players looking for explanations and our thoughts and results on balance that led to these changes. I will be following up this post with more details that talk about why some of these changes are being implemented.

***

Holy Sword (Paladin)
This is now a spell that affects the paladin and buffs whatever melee weapon is being wielded in the main hand.
It no longer persists on your weapon but instead buffs the melee weapon you are holding in your main hand. (Yes, this buffs your two handed weapons.)
It no longer affects missile weapons.
It no longer can be used to buff off hand weapons or shields.
If you change weapons the spell will drop off the unequipped weapon and instead be applied to the newly equipped weapon.

Blood Strength (Barbarian Ravager)
The portion of this enhancement that heals the user when they kill an opponent now has a 1 second internal cooldown.

Critical Rage (Barbarian Ravager)
The bonus to critical threat range is now a competence bonus.

Two weapon fighting animations have been fixed so there is no longer a weird jump on the fourth animation. This has made the fourth attack slightly quicker.

Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Improved Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.
Greater Two Weapon Fighting no longer grants melee power.

Doubleshot values over 100% now have a chance of producing a third attack. The chance is equal to the amount the value exceeds 100. A doubleshot value of 130, for example, would always produce one extra shot and have a 30% chance to produce a third shot.

(Doublestrike will still cap at 100 for technical reasons.)

Repeating Crossbows and Doubleshot
Fixed a bug where Doubleshot was not being reduced for repeating crossbows. (Doubleshot chance is divided by 3 for repeating crossbows.)

Manyshot
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 20 seconds you add your (base attack bonus * 4) to your Doubleshot and Ranged Power. This ability puts Ten Thousand Stars on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 2 minutes.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Ten Thousand Stars
This ability is being redesigned.
For the next 30 seconds you add your Wisdom ability score to your Ranged Power and you add your monk level * 5 to your Doubleshot. This ability puts Manyshot on a 30 second cooldown. Cooldown 1 minute.
(This ability no longer gives a doubleshot penalty when activated.)

Mechanical Reloader (Rogue Mechanic)
The alacrity for non-repeating crossbows is now 30%. (Was 40%)

Pulverizer (Legendary Dreadnought)
The bonus to critical threat range for bludgeoning weapons is now an Insight bonus.

Improved Critical
These feats now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Keen
This loot effect now add a bonus to critical threat range based purely on weapon type.
* Adds +3 to critical threat range for falchion, kukri, rapier, and scimitar.
* Adds +2 to the critical threat range of bastard sword, dagger, great crossbow, greatsword, heavy crossbow, khopesh, light crossbow, long sword, repeating heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow, short sword, and throwing dagger.
* Adds +1 to all other weapons.

Armor Changes
The amount of Physical Resist Rating that armor provides has been changed.
* Heavy armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 2) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Medium armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1.5) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
* Light Armor now increases Physical Resist Rating by (base attack bonus * 1) and no longer adds Magical Resist Rating.
Fixed a bug where players were getting Physical Resist Rating for armor with which they were not proficient.

(Note: The Physical Resist Rating and Magical Resist Rating offered by shields remain unchanged.)

As a result of dialing back armor, some fighter only feats that will boost their effectiveness with armor and add to tactical DCs will also be included.

Tactical Training
Requires Fighter Level 4
You gain +2 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 8
You gain +4 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Mastery
Requires Fighter Level 12
You gain +6 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Tactical Supremacy
Requires Fighter Level 16
You gain +8 to the DC of all tactical feats.

Notes: All tactical feats stack for a total of +20. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Tactical Training and forego the +2 but still have access to Tatical Supremacy.

Heavy Armor Training
Requires Fighter Level 2
You gain +3 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Combatant
Requires Fighter Level 6
You gain +6 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Master
Requires Fighter Level 10
You gain +9 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Heavy Armor Champion
Requires Fighter Level 14
You gain +12 Physical Resistance Rating and Magical Resistance Rating while wearing heavy armor.

Notes: All Heavy Armor feats stack for a total of +30. The lower level feats are not prerequisites for the higher level feats so a higher level fighter could save a feat if he/she wanted to skip Heavy Armor Training and forego the +3 and still have access to Heavy Armor Champion.


Divine Grace (Paladin)
Divine Grace now provides a maximum bonus equal to 2 + (Paladin level x 3).

Eldritch Blast and other enhancements (Warlock)
The spellpower scaling for Eldritch Blast and several enhancements has been reduced.

Spellpower scaling of Warlock Abilities

Ability	Old	New
Eldritch Blast	150%	130%
Eldritch Blast Cone	130%	130%
Eldritch Blast Chain	110%	95%
Eldritch Blast Aura	150%	130%
Stricken (Souleater)	150%	125%
Consume (Souleater)	150%	125%
Eldritch Burst (Enlightened Spirit)	120%	100%
Spirit Blast (Enlightened Spirit)	120%	100%

I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

dont nerfed more the warlocks

[gwonbush]

dont nerfed more the warlocks

A bit late. The balance changes in the post have been in the game for weeks now.

[Paramedicus]

I'd put this up here since no admin or rep ever responded while I was a VIP:

I'd like you guys to "rebalance" the VIP vs purchasing classes or quest packs while they're on sale at the Store.

Oddly enough, I COULD buy a druid, or artificer. Yet I could NOT buy a Warlock (While a VIP member). I was primarily playing a Warlock, and of course now that I did buy it outright after stopping my VIP (due to being so aggravated over the stupidity in not being able to buy some classes while being a VIP), the Warlock is getting downgraded. Bait and switch. Nice.

Anyway, a few weeks ago, if one spent 3000 points in the Store, there was a 30% discount. Of COURSE, as I said, the Warlock was not available to buy for VIP members. Great logic: Punish the VIPs.

As I said in the other post, I had -two- concurrent VIP memberships; I had my own, and my son's. I canceled them both due to the blatant disregard VIPs in not being able to take advantage of discounts. I truly don't understand the bias against the VIPs. For the cost of the VIP, especially given there are TWO, I could have bought several PC games and owned them rather than just rent, per se. I know population of players is dwindling, and given I clearly was (AM) a paying player, I would have thought the admin would value a basic logic in keeping VIPs happy.

Two accounts losing 30% discount on the 3000 points each is 1800 points. Neither my son nor myself could buy the class/quests we wanted. Anyway, if I get no reply, I'm not renewing. I canceled out of frustration, but making it right would keep me. Period.

I know you can get my IP and see my son's former VIP account as well. I'm not blowing smoke.

[Paramedicus]

Is this place dead or do admin just not respond? I could just dump my money into POE instead at this rate :/

[EllisDee37]

Is this place dead or do admin just not respond? I could just dump my money into POE instead at this rate :/

This thread is finished; it was for discussion of a specific set of balance changes before they went live. Those changes (modified based on the discussion in this thread) have since gone live, so this thread no longer has relevance.

Your VIP issues sound annoying, and may very well point to a bug in the new store. I would encourage you to start a new thread.

[FestusHood]

I'd put this up here since no admin or rep ever responded while I was a VIP:

I'd like you guys to "rebalance" the VIP vs purchasing classes or quest packs while they're on sale at the Store.

Oddly enough, I COULD buy a druid, or artificer. Yet I could NOT buy a Warlock (While a VIP member). I was primarily playing a Warlock, and of course now that I did buy it outright after stopping my VIP (due to being so aggravated over the stupidity in not being able to buy some classes while being a VIP), the Warlock is getting downgraded. Bait and switch. Nice.

Anyway, a few weeks ago, if one spent 3000 points in the Store, there was a 30% discount. Of COURSE, as I said, the Warlock was not available to buy for VIP members. Great logic: Punish the VIPs.

As I said in the other post, I had -two- concurrent VIP memberships; I had my own, and my son's. I canceled them both due to the blatant disregard VIPs in not being able to take advantage of discounts. I truly don't understand the bias against the VIPs. For the cost of the VIP, especially given there are TWO, I could have bought several PC games and owned them rather than just rent, per se. I know population of players is dwindling, and given I clearly was (AM) a paying player, I would have thought the admin would value a basic logic in keeping VIPs happy.

Two accounts losing 30% discount on the 3000 points each is 1800 points. Neither my son nor myself could buy the class/quests we wanted. Anyway, if I get no reply, I'm not renewing. I canceled out of frustration, but making it right would keep me. Period.

I know you can get my IP and see my son's former VIP account as well. I'm not blowing smoke.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but are druid and artificer not included in vip subscription? The store is set up, not just for vip's, but everybody, so that you can't buy something you already have. My question would be why did you want to buy warlock if you already had access to it via being vip? Were you already planning on dropping your vip subscription?

[Paramedicus]

This thread is finished; it was for discussion of a specific set of balance changes before they went live. Those changes (modified based on the discussion in this thread) have since gone live, so this thread no longer has relevance.

Your VIP issues sound annoying, and may very well point to a bug in the new store. I would encourage you to start a new thread.

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For some reason, I cannot start a thread. Before I was a VIP I could only reply. Now that I'm not a VIP I can only reply yet again. I bought points PRIOR to being a VIP just the same.

One cannot, as a VIP, buy certain things from the store (such as Warlock class). VIP exclusion from buying Warlock class, especially during a 30% off (if I were to spend my 3000 points, which I was) makes -zero- sense. The Monk class for my son was not available to purchase either...again during our VIP status.

It's easy enough to see the history of my and my son's accounts. When the game punishes indirectly, a VIP in that you cannot buy what's on sale, that makes no sense.

As for the "permissions" on posting, these are the default I found the game/forum in - I was never able to post anything. When I went VIP, I was able...but that's been removed since I'm not a VIP again unless this gets resolved. 900 points for 3000 spent x2 accounts was pretty significant.

[Paramedicus]

I'm not 100% sure on this, but are druid and artificer not included in vip subscription? The store is set up, not just for vip's, but everybody, so that you can't buy something you already have. My question would be why did you want to buy warlock if you already had access to it via being vip? Were you already planning on dropping your vip subscription?

I'm an EMT. It's a "whopping" 11 bucks an hour. VIP is expensive for me, let alone having my son's account too. You rent when you are a VIP. Who wouldn't want to buy something when you get 30% back? I had the points for it (Warlock and other stuff), but Warlock was bait and switch being downgraded while being most expensive class. It's a double screw over per se.

[Cordovan]

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For some reason, I cannot start a thread. Before I was a VIP I could only reply. Now that I'm not a VIP I can only reply yet again. I bought points PRIOR to being a VIP just the same.

One cannot, as a VIP, buy certain things from the store (such as Warlock class). VIP exclusion from buying Warlock class, especially during a 30% off (if I were to spend my 3000 points, which I was) makes -zero- sense. The Monk class for my son was not available to purchase either...again during our VIP status.

It's easy enough to see the history of my and my son's accounts. When the game punishes indirectly, a VIP in that you cannot buy what's on sale, that makes no sense.

As for the "permissions" on posting, these are the default I found the game/forum in - I was never able to post anything. When I went VIP, I was able...but that's been removed since I'm not a VIP again unless this gets resolved. 900 points for 3000 spent x2 accounts was pretty significant.

Let me follow up with you through PM. Unsure what's going on; when I look at your settings nothing strikes me as amiss.

[slarden]

And how do you explain this SS:

Are warlocks spoiling the fun of every other party member and trivializing EE content with only Uber HP?
Are they killing 225 EE mobs with their sheer constitution?

The person that posted that already acknowledge they arrived very late and hid their kill count as well. Any class can do the same thing with kill count if they start the quest solo or with a few under-powered characters.

[esojiul]

Greetings.


I will be following up this post with some details on our thoughts on balance and design.

Sev~

I wont touch more the warlock, the Artificer and fighters will improved with updated 29, but still requeried extra touch. And why dont change tier 5 spell of sorcers enhaments from const to charisma

[Reynarn]

Wrong title,
these are nor balancing changes, these are serious nerfs for a lot of builds.
If your intention is balance, than focus on e.g. unarmed monks, DC spellcasting, the insane HP mob meatbags in EE, starving artificers.

These planned changes will mainly hit casual players, who have found a performing (in your words an overperforming) build and enjoying it to play DDO.
A triple heroic/epic completionist character will just shrug and continue, a first life toon in the hand of an once in a while player will be simply unusable.

1) How many players will stop to play DDO due to these changes?
2) How many players will start to play DDO due to these changes?
3) How many players will continue to play DDO due to these changes, but would have stopped otherwise?

I bet option 1) outbalances the other two points combined.

Let's put it this way, I'm regretting the three month subscription, I just made. Sounds like best case scenario, it will be that long until the builds are redone. From what I am hearing, I'm glad I have never reached epic level.