The Balance Change post

[Snarglefrump]

We expect that to be true for characters who take 16+ levels of Fighter.

If fighters only want to spend 1 feat on it, it kind of sucks to make them wait until level 16 to take it. How about:

Tactics: Gain +1 to tactical DCs per 4 fighter levels rounded up. This feat can be taken more than once.

Taking the feat 4 times still adds up to a +20 bonus, and it still builds based on Fighter level, but the Fighter has much more flexibility about when to take it.

[Bennum]

Warlocks are supposed to be a DPS toon!

Yes their AOE and Chain DPS was overscaled and needed to be pulled back - We'll see if the Devs have finally hit the mark on that.

But it was always the Self-Sufficiency that was the issue with Warlocks being OP - Glass Cannon should have been what the Devs went for but strangely enough it's the DPS that gets the nerf bat {not once but twice now - Yes Warlock DPS has already been nerfed once!}.

As for the Single Target Basic Blast - What Warlocks are relatively weak against is super high HP Mobs and Bosses - A Warlock's time to kill a boss is significantly higher than Melee Builds who get far more attacks per second!

I don't see the need to nerf the Single Target Basic Blast and on the other hand would probably buff it up a little from it's original amount.

The trade off for Chain and Cone and Aura would then be that you don't do anywhere near as much single target DPS when using them - By Nerfing the basic blast at the same time as nerfing those {strangely not the Cone?} the Devs are keeping them as being strictly better for almost all scenarios except when facing just one single enemy {the boss when all adds have been cleared!}.

Exactly my thoughts and this is how I played mine, I T5d Enlightened Spirit for awhile and hated it, I felt so cheap I switched back to being a glass cannon willingly.

[Captain_Wizbang]

I'm not sure how many issues the "player base" could ever come to a single consensus on!


.

[Bennum]

This is the kind of feeback DEVs should avoid. The criticals you have now with the changes are still better than what you had one year ago. And pulverizer doesn't make what you are saying, khopeshes are still better than warhammers and mauls are equal to axe now.

All the worse for versatility, all hail the khopesh! And just when other weapon choices could compete too.

[Captain_Wizbang]

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

[redoubt]

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

Listening to the Wednesday video it sounds like these are going in 29.

[nomadicc]

All the worse for versatility, all hail the khopesh! And just when other weapon choices could compete too.

+1

[PsychoBlonde]

As I said, this change will specifically de-values rare and hard-to-get weapons that I have spent many hours trying to acquire, while the random basic weapons stay as good (or bad) as they ever were.

You could also say that any time they add new gear to the game, it de-values everything that existed before. Or change anything in enhancements or the class that makes some things more or less useful than they were before.

Do you have any IDEA how much I farmed to get that Epic Belt of the Mroranon, Epic Kundarak Delving Goggles, Epic Siren's Bracers and Epic Siren's Belt? None of which I use any more. "I worked hard to get something that won't be as awesome now" is a null argument. Anybody who has played the game for any length of time can say this.

[PsychoBlonde]

Question. is this going to happen AFTER a fighter pass?

Or better yet. Will these changes happen after all the classes have been "adjusted"

It'd make more sense to make the changes before they adjust any more classes, so they can then adjust the classes with these changes in mind.

I think this has come up because the ranger pass has run them up hard against some technical problems with (among other things) crits and manyshot.

[TheDr0wRanger]

I just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

First off Sgt Hart is right when he says things like:

*SNIP*
I'm still saying "Fighter Level" in there is a Typo'd instance of "Character Level" And you're not going to convince me otherwise until you actually go ahead and make the mistake of implementing it as such.

The composite picture here results in something troubling. You are getting the spirit of Fighter wrong. It is "Options by way of feats." not "Exclusive feats to make it a specialist."

If I want to take 4 heavy armor combatant feat's on a pure paladin, Why in the blue hell can't I?

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#fighterBonusFeats

Take special notice of:

The text string "Fighter Level" show's up three times on that document. Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Specialization.
Now it may be a mighty slim list of characters who'd take.. Trample for example, But if the halfling rogue has taken Mounted Combat and a rank into riding, and really wants to do it...

*SNIPPITY*

You want to put Half values into the feats, and then have Fighter enhancements that double the effectiveness? Fine. That's Where DDO has already truly, and thoroughly divorced itself from DnD, and that's almost always in a good way. Arbitrarily inventing new fighter only feats, for the stated intent of "Fighter get's better" Is (at best) a sketchy way to do it.

*SNIPSNIP*


What I'd like is more overall feats that are missing, but DDO presently does as enhancements. Perhaps the best analogy I can give is that fighters are vanilla ice cream, but have full access to the selection of toppings. Every other class is a flavor of ice cream like rocky road, or peanut butter ripple, or Neapolitan, and allowed a topping, or two.

Because he's hitting on something you are doing very wrong, that will have long-running repercussions for the already underperforming class, and by extension the classes that stand next to it in comparison.

Making fighters take repeated, identical, underwhelming, exclusive feats to get things other classes get for free is missing everything cool about fighters. Having 18 feats and then spending between 2-4 feats on attaining the MRR needed to survive magic attacks is essentially forcing fighters to trade a disproportionate amount of their class advantage to survive and making the selection of feats a forgone conclusion. As you'll see below, I don't think its necessarily bad for fighters to be buying their goodies with feats, but the current arrangement is going to cost too much for too little and severely limit the ability of fighters to make meaningful choices. More importantly making them fighter only feats misses the point of the class entirely.

Let me explain:
Rangers get a powerful, themed set of feats and enhancements that allows them to inhabit a few roles in the game. Some of the things that make them special aren't available to anyone else, while others are simply widely-available powers that synergize with what they get for free.
Rogues get a different set of themed feats and enhancements with different roles on offer, they also have abilities exclusive to them and non-exclusives that help them maximize what they already have.

Fighters get almost no preset abilities other than proficiency with every martial weapon and armor. Instead they get 18 feats. With those 18 feats, they can select from all of those generally-available feats that help each class focus and hone it's innate power. Because fighters have no innate role they can choose, or create, whichever suits them. They can synergize abilities and maximize 1 or 2 skills, or they can generalize and be competent with everything. Sometimes a Ranger will have to choose which of two equally desirable feats complements his innate skills the best, and he must forgo the other. The advantage of the fighter, the bonus he gets in exchange for having nothing given to him for free, is that he looks at those two feats and has no problems, because he can afford both. He can take ever-so-many bow related feats and be a crazy powerful archer, maybe even better than the ranger in his own way. Or he can take fewer bow related feats and become a competent archer who also has a hammer, something beyond the ranger entirely. He can take armor and shields and toughness to survive anything or he can be simply a durable and competent swordsman, the point is that he can be whatever he wants within the confines of the feat list. Fighters are the martial-oriented protoclass. Where other classes get unique and themed powers, fighters start with nothing pre-chosen.

Fighters are not specialists, and this I think is whats being done wrong over and over. Fighters can be specialists, and in DDO it's tempting to cast them that way by providing 1 or 2 themed trees with a focus for each, because themed trees are the way every other class derives it's value. But the beauty in the fighter class is that they don't have to be anything in particular. Fighters look unexciting to new-comers to DnD, because they are just "mundane" martial soldiers. Other classes get cool things like magic and ki and psionics, why would a fighter be exciting? It's because, played right, a fighter can form frighteningly effective and occasionally exotic roles that simply could not be achieved in the more directed classes.

Practically, this means that instead of exclusive fighter feats, we should increase the number of desirable feats available to everyone at heroic level. This will offer meaningful choices across the board.. But the real power is when it starts to make the other classes wish they could take all of the feats and, crucially, not be able to. This brings up the value of fighters because now they suddenly have an array of different things they can do or be, they can attempt to compete with another class at their primary role, or they can focus on a completely new design. A completely devoted archer-fighter may outshoot rangers if hes careful, but he won't really play like them and he certainly won't be able to do everything a ranger can do, like divine healing. Chains of feats are especially good, Whirlwind Attack is somewhat underwhelming as yet, but the idea of taking 3-4 marginally useful feats like Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack to unlock the final, very potent, feat is very productive for this idea. Fighters can afford to take Whirlwind and still have feats for other things. A tempest who builds for Whirlwind is going to be much harder pressed. Make some really cool feats for offensive and defensive use, sprinkle effective but not-optimal feats into the requirements and watch fighters matter again.

Next, the trees need consideration. Vanguard is great, offering offensive and defensive bonuses to the shield user. Stalwart is nearly perfect, it's got wonderful low-hanging fruit that any heavy-armor design could use and the higher tiers are compelling but not so much so that taking tier 4 is a waste of time if your focus lies elsewhere. Kensei has whispers of greatness, with the action boosts and DCs on offer, its a shame someone spilled monk all over it.What it needs is to have the needless thematic junk scrapped. One with the Blade is fine, but all the light-armor and PJs are better off as extra selectors on Stalwart stuff(you read that right, Stalwart with a few light-armor bonuses could be an all around defensive smorgasbord). Action-boosts burned for single attacks aren't great, how about some acceptable-but-not-great selectors for Melee Power, Ranged Power, Sneak Attack, Doubleshot and Doublestrike? Then fill out the rest with things like W bonus attacks and bonuses that magnify the effect of feats. Make the Tier 5s things like Keen Edge that are desirable for anyone with a weapon, but not strictly superior to similar bonuses in more thematic trees. Cores could allow diverse weapon bonus stats with your focus weapon, or add a second focus weapon in place of more power to the first one.

The idea is that you have an Offensive tree that makes whatever weapon you have work better, regardless of what it is and how it works. Nothing in this tree should make your jaw drop, instead everything in this tree should feel like a solid choice for the points. The same should be true of Stalwart and that might require some tweaking to make it work for other armor types, but a focus on moderate bonuses to relevant stats should be easier to do than most trees. Vanguard is there both because A. Its already there and B. It's a great option for making a straightforward and fun-to-play fighter, its got nothing that I can see greatly over-powering the class when the other trees are in line.

The better thing here is that fighters become not only the protoclass, but their levels become proto-levels too. They have full BAB, feats nearly every level and if my enhancement suggestions were followed, would bring measured bonuses to literally anything you splashed them into. A pure fighter has the tools available to excel, but doesn't stomp on as many toes because the idea is to make it so that no single ability is driving the tree.

So that was long, my point is to tell you what I think is wrong, why I think its wrong, what I think it should be like and then offer a little bit of how that might emerge. I seriously hope you guys do this right, because the current plan sounds like it's going to irrevocably alter the class.

[Morroiel]

For single target damage the 3 main contributors are: eldritch blast (w/ lantern ring procs), consume, and stricken (though stricken is more for the debuffs it gives).

Most builds can hit 600 standing light spell power (I assume 600 because this is the low end. Anything higher than this and it will only exaggerate the nerf).
Most builds can hit 450 standing fire/acid/sonic spell power (again this is the low end).

Crit Chance Light = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) = 40%
Crit Chance Fire = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) + 9% (draconic past lives) = 49%

Crit Damage Multiplier = 2.6 (60% additive increase from tainted scholar)

Dice Damage (assuming you max out warlock and take feats and strong pact): 15d6 base (no save, light) + 14d4 pact (save for half) + 2d6 (light from greater hunger - souleater) = 17d6 (light) + 14d4 (pact)
*Assume save only 20% of the time - and no evasion/fey

Consume Damage = 8d10 (light) every 2 seconds, stacks up to 3 times = 24d10 / 2 seconds

Stricken Damage = 24d6 (light) {cd = 10 seconds}
*For consume and stricken metamagics (emp + max) added

Consume Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2895 damage every 2 seconds = 1448 average dps
Consume After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2448 damage every 2 seconds = 1224 average dps

Consume After / Consume Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Consume will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Stricken Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1843 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)
Stricken After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1558 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)

Stricken After / Stricken Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Stricken will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast Base Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.5+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 975.8 per blast
Eldritch Blast Base After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.3+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 858.7 per blast

Eldritch Blast Pact Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor) = ({450*1.5+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 435.9 per blast
Eldritch Blast Pact After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor)= ({450*1.3+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 384.9 per blast

Eldritch Blast Total Before = 975.8 per blast + 435.9 per blast = 1411.7
Eldritch Blast Total After = 858.7 per blast + 384.9 per blast = 1243.6

Eldritch Blast After / Eldritch Blast Before = % reduction to dps = 88% || Eldritch Blast will do 88% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast will be losing 200 damage from each blast essentially - multiply that by the avg blasting rate and you get the raw dps loss.

Removing almost 200 damage from each blast + removing 220 dps from consume will cripple warlocks single target damage. In truth this dps loss will only be amplified once you add in other factors (20% vuln. debuff from souleater, etc).

Assuming a modest (again low end value) 2 blasts per second - the nerf to blast and consume alone total 620 dps loss (before multiplied by other factors such as vuln.). 744 with vuln. factored in.

You guys need to seriously reconsider the single target dps reductions to warlock. Yes they are ahead of other casters at the moment because the other casters are relics from an era before 1 million hp super bosses. However, they are behind EVERY single reworked class in terms of single target damage (in end game content). Warlock right now is the crutch caster players can use to play this game how they want to - if you nerf their single target damage you are essentially telling all casters to reroll their toons into non-casters. It is the ONLY caster build that is truly in a good spot right now. We are willing to wait for our class passes / spell passes but we have to have something to do while we wait. For many of us warlock was/is the answer to that - we want to play casters and this is our only truly viable option right now. Remove power from warlock in any other way besides removing single target damage - for surely with the current state of end game removing single target damage is the harshest nerf you can impose on a build.

I am praying that you guys take this feedback into consideration - I don't want to see you guys throwaway what little improvement you've given to casters in the last year.


Note: A lot of the stuff I assumed can actually be thrown away if all you care about is % reduction since it will show up in both the numerator and denominator. I included those assumptions so you could see the raw values at the end before taking the quotient.

[Seikojin]

Thats exactly the key part of the changes to archers that needs a dev reply. Overall it looks like my monkcher is down 25% arrows meaning fewer mortal fear procs and fewer adrenalines in particular. Normal damage looks about the same but thats not the key issue at all.

We badly need a dev reply to this.

The increase to ranged power will help mitigate some of the loss of damage that comes in the form of reduced shots (and all their goodies). However I know this change will reduce overall dps for ranged by a bit. But until Lamannia is up, no one can say how much the change will actually matter.

I know in dps tests before, I was dropping 100k kobolds in less than 18 seconds. So if it doubles to 36, I would ask for a bigger increase in ranged power. If it goes to 20, I would say nothing. If it goes to 25, I would ask for something. Either more ranged power, or some more doubleshot.

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

[nomadicc]

You could also say that any time they add new gear to the game, it de-values everything that existed before. Or change anything in enhancements or the class that makes some things more or less useful than they were before.

Do you have any IDEA how much I farmed to get that Epic Belt of the Mroranon, Epic Kundarak Delving Goggles, Epic Siren's Bracers and Epic Siren's Belt? None of which I use any more. "I worked hard to get something that won't be as awesome now" is a null argument. Anybody who has played the game for any length of time can say this.

I absolutely understand. I have 2x alchemical khopeshes that I spent a *lot* of time running LoB, pre MotU, to build. They're still decent at level 20, but have since been overcome by a bunch of better/newer/higher level weapons. I expect those weapons will be overcome by the new epic greensteels. That's a natural part of MMO's expanding and progressing, and I'm happy with that.

But, after this update, my alchemicals will still be just as good as they were before, while my rare quarterstaves will not. That hurts, because the best weapons in the game are still just as good, and a few cool ones used by niche builds are being diminished.

[Seikojin]

I just want to emphasize, rearticulate and hopefully maybe inspire discussion regarding the fighter-feat arrangement that's on the table.

First off Sgt Hart is right when he says things like:



Because he's hitting on something you are doing very wrong, that will have long-running repercussions for the already underperforming class, and by extension the classes that stand next to it in comparison.

Making fighters take repeated, identical, underwhelming, exclusive feats to get things other classes get for free is missing everything cool about fighters. Having 18 feats and then spending between 2-4 feats on attaining the MRR needed to survive magic attacks is essentially forcing fighters to trade a disproportionate amount of their class advantage to survive and making the selection of feats a forgone conclusion. As you'll see below, I don't think its necessarily bad for fighters to be buying their goodies with feats, but the current arrangement is going to cost too much for too little and severely limit the ability of fighters to make meaningful choices. More importantly making them fighter only feats misses the point of the class entirely.

Let me explain:
Rangers get a powerful, themed set of feats and enhancements that allows them to inhabit a few roles in the game. Some of the things that make them special aren't available to anyone else, while others are simply widely-available powers that synergize with what they get for free.
Rogues get a different set of themed feats and enhancements with different roles on offer, they also have abilities exclusive to them and non-exclusives that help them maximize what they already have.

Fighters get almost no preset abilities other than proficiency with every martial weapon and armor. Instead they get 18 feats. With those 18 feats, they can select from all of those generally-available feats that help each class focus and hone it's innate power. Because fighters have no innate role they can choose, or create, whichever suits them. They can synergize abilities and maximize 1 or 2 skills, or they can generalize and be competent with everything. Sometimes a Ranger will have to choose which of two equally desirable feats complements his innate skills the best, and he must forgo the other. The advantage of the fighter, the bonus he gets in exchange for having nothing given to him for free, is that he looks at those two feats and has no problems, because he can afford both. He can take ever-so-many bow related feats and be a crazy powerful archer, maybe even better than the ranger in his own way. Or he can take fewer bow related feats and become a competent archer who also has a hammer, something beyond the ranger entirely. He can take armor and shields and toughness to survive anything or he can be simply a durable and competent swordsman, the point is that he can be whatever he wants within the confines of the feat list. Fighters are the martial-oriented protoclass. Where other classes get unique and themed powers, fighters start with nothing pre-chosen.

Fighters are not specialists, and this I think is whats being done wrong over and over. Fighters can be specialists, and in DDO it's tempting to cast them that way by providing 1 or 2 themed trees with a focus for each, because themed trees are the way every other class derives it's value. But the beauty in the fighter class is that they don't have to be anything in particular. Fighters look unexciting to new-comers to DnD, because they are just "mundane" martial soldiers. Other classes get cool things like magic and ki and psionics, why would a fighter be exciting? It's because, played right, a fighter can form frighteningly effective and occasionally exotic roles that simply could not be achieved in the more directed classes.

Practically, this means that instead of exclusive fighter feats, we should increase the number of desirable feats available to everyone at heroic level. This will offer meaningful choices across the board.. But the real power is when it starts to make the other classes wish they could take all of the feats and, crucially, not be able to. This brings up the value of fighters because now they suddenly have an array of different things they can do or be, they can attempt to compete with another class at their primary role, or they can focus on a completely new design. A completely devoted archer-fighter may outshoot rangers if hes careful, but he won't really play like them and he certainly won't be able to do everything a ranger can do, like divine healing. Chains of feats are especially good, Whirlwind Attack is somewhat underwhelming as yet, but the idea of taking 3-4 marginally useful feats like Dodge-Mobility-Spring Attack to unlock the final, very potent, feat is very productive for this idea. Fighters can afford to take Whirlwind and still have feats for other things. A tempest who builds for Whirlwind is going to be much harder pressed. Make some really cool feats for offensive and defensive use, sprinkle effective but not-optimal feats into the requirements and watch fighters matter again.

Next, the trees need consideration. Vanguard is great, offering offensive and defensive bonuses to the shield user. Stalwart is nearly perfect, it's got wonderful low-hanging fruit that any heavy-armor design could use and the higher tiers are compelling but not so much so that taking tier 4 is a waste of time if your focus lies elsewhere. Kensei has whispers of greatness, with the action boosts and DCs on offer, its a shame someone spilled monk all over it.What it needs is to have the needless thematic junk scrapped. One with the Blade is fine, but all the light-armor and PJs are better off as extra selectors on Stalwart stuff(you read that right, Stalwart with a few light-armor bonuses could be an all around defensive smorgasbord). Action-boosts burned for single attacks aren't great, how about some acceptable-but-not-great selectors for Melee Power, Ranged Power, Sneak Attack, Doubleshot and Doublestrike? Then fill out the rest with things like W bonus attacks and bonuses that magnify the effect of feats. Make the Tier 5s things like Keen Edge that are desirable for anyone with a weapon, but not strictly superior to similar bonuses in more thematic trees. Cores could allow diverse weapon bonus stats with your focus weapon, or add a second focus weapon in place of more power to the first one.

The idea is that you have an Offensive tree that makes whatever weapon you have work better, regardless of what it is and how it works. Nothing in this tree should make your jaw drop, instead everything in this tree should feel like a solid choice for the points. The same should be true of Stalwart and that might require some tweaking to make it work for other armor types, but a focus on moderate bonuses to relevant stats should be easier to do than most trees. Vanguard is there both because A. Its already there and B. It's a great option for making a straightforward and fun-to-play fighter, its got nothing that I can see greatly over-powering the class when the other trees are in line.

The better thing here is that fighters become not only the protoclass, but their levels become proto-levels too. They have full BAB, feats nearly every level and if my enhancement suggestions were followed, would bring measured bonuses to literally anything you splashed them into. A pure fighter has the tools available to excel, but doesn't stomp on as many toes because the idea is to make it so that no single ability is driving the tree.

So that was long, my point is to tell you what I think is wrong, why I think its wrong, what I think it should be like and then offer a little bit of how that might emerge. I seriously hope you guys do this right, because the current plan sounds like it's going to irrevocably alter the class.

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

[Seikojin]

For single target damage the 3 main contributors are: eldritch blast (w/ lantern ring procs), consume, and stricken (though stricken is more for the debuffs it gives).

Most builds can hit 600 standing light spell power (I assume 600 because this is the low end. Anything higher than this and it will only exaggerate the nerf).
Most builds can hit 450 standing fire/acid/sonic spell power (again this is the low end).

Crit Chance Light = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) = 40%
Crit Chance Fire = 5% (training) + 8% (souleater) + 22% (lore item) + 5% (insight) + 9% (draconic past lives) = 49%

Crit Damage Multiplier = 2.6 (60% additive increase from tainted scholar)

Dice Damage (assuming you max out warlock and take feats and strong pact): 15d6 base (no save, light) + 14d4 pact (save for half) + 2d6 (light from greater hunger - souleater) = 17d6 (light) + 14d4 (pact)
*Assume save only 20% of the time - and no evasion/fey

Consume Damage = 8d10 (light) every 2 seconds, stacks up to 3 times = 24d10 / 2 seconds

Stricken Damage = 24d6 (light) {cd = 10 seconds}
*For consume and stricken metamagics (emp + max) added

Consume Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2895 damage every 2 seconds = 1448 average dps
Consume After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*5.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 2448 damage every 2 seconds = 1224 average dps

Consume After / Consume Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Consume will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Stricken Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.5+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1843 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)
Stricken After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({825*1.25+100}/100)*24*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 1558 average damage (cd is 10 seconds)

Stricken After / Stricken Before = % reduction to dps = 84% || Stricken will do 84% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast Base Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.5+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 975.8 per blast
Eldritch Blast Base After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) = ({600*1.3+100}/100)*17*3.5*(2.6*.4 + .6) = 858.7 per blast

Eldritch Blast Pact Before: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor) = ({450*1.5+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 435.9 per blast
Eldritch Blast Pact After: (spell power component) * ( dice #) * (avg damage on that dice) * (crit damage factor) * (save factor)= ({450*1.3+100}/100)*14*2.5*(2.6*.49 + .51) * (.8 + .5*.2) = 384.9 per blast

Eldritch Blast Total Before = 975.8 per blast + 435.9 per blast = 1411.7
Eldritch Blast Total After = 858.7 per blast + 384.9 per blast = 1243.6

Eldritch Blast After / Eldritch Blast Before = % reduction to dps = 88% || Eldritch Blast will do 88% of the damage it currently does.

Eldritch Blast will be losing 200 damage from each blast essentially - multiply that by the avg blasting rate and you get the raw dps loss.

Removing almost 200 damage from each blast + removing 220 dps from consume will cripple warlocks single target damage. In truth this dps loss will only be amplified once you add in other factors (20% vuln. debuff from souleater, etc).

Assuming a modest (again low end value) 2 blasts per second - the nerf to blast and consume alone total 620 dps loss (before multiplied by other factors such as vuln.). 744 with vuln. factored in.

You guys need to seriously reconsider the single target dps reductions to warlock. Yes they are ahead of other casters at the moment because the other casters are relics from an era before 1 million hp super bosses. However, they are behind EVERY single reworked class in terms of single target damage (in end game content). Warlock right now is the crutch caster players can use to play this game how they want to - if you nerf their single target damage you are essentially telling all casters to reroll their toons into non-casters. It is the ONLY caster build that is truly in a good spot right now. We are willing to wait for our class passes / spell passes but we have to have something to do while we wait. For many of us warlock was/is the answer to that - we want to play casters and this is our only truly viable option right now. Remove power from warlock in any other way besides removing single target damage - for surely with the current state of end game removing single target damage is the harshest nerf you can impose on a build.

I am praying that you guys take this feedback into consideration - I don't want to see you guys throwaway what little improvement you've given to casters in the last year.


Note: A lot of the stuff I assumed can actually be thrown away if all you care about is % reduction since it will show up in both the numerator and denominator. I included those assumptions so you could see the raw values at the end before taking the quotient.

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

[Seikojin]

True.

My question becomes how do you know what is working when you change so much at once?

Lamannia.

[Sgt_Hart]

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

And that's where the disagreement comes in. the fighter flavor is: I have feats for everything. I took "Expert Underwater Basket Weaver" because I had a feat slot for it.

That's the point. The other classes Should be able to take the feats, But they have to go "Is it worth the cost?" Fighters don't have that issue because of their flavor.

[Drwaz99]

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

The increase to ranged power will help mitigate some of the loss of damage that comes in the form of reduced shots (and all their goodies). However I know this change will reduce overall dps for ranged by a bit. But until Lamannia is up, no one can say how much the change will actually matter.

I know in dps tests before, I was dropping 100k kobolds in less than 18 seconds. So if it doubles to 36, I would ask for a bigger increase in ranged power. If it goes to 20, I would say nothing. If it goes to 25, I would ask for something. Either more ranged power, or some more doubleshot.

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

Other classes have specializations fighters do not. So giving the same feats to all others would push them further ahead and make less people choose fighter. No fighter has to choose these feats. They are an option. Some are useful to some fighters while others are not. Even with changes to prr and mrr, these feats are just additional options to expand how a fighter can perform.

Please try to follow the rules highlighted in red for your convenience:

I want to pop into the thread to encourage folks to make a concerted effort to stay on track. Ultimately, we'd much rather hear your feedback and questions to our posts than refutations of other players' suggestions. I want to be as flexible as I can be, but would prefer that this thread not shift over into a long back and forth over someone else's ideas.

It goes without saying that we will not tolerate insults, harassment, or abuse. This is a particularly important topic for us, and we really want to get meaningful feedback from all of you. Thanks!

Thanks.

[blerkington]

Not revert to its massive lag inducing 260+ arrow-ness that it is now.

Hi,

This again? What is your evidence for making this claim?

Massive lag is definitely not something I'm seeing when I use manyshot, and the great majority of other people posting in the AA thread about this particular issue said the same thing.

Thanks.

[Morroiel]

I ran warlock numbers before and after and I feel the reduction is too light. Warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds on their first life with nothing really special going on. Yeah, it is a reduction, but not enough of one.

Outperforming many classes and builds on their first life? Are you serious? In the area of single target damage!?!? I highly doubt that.

Consider the numbers I just ran - even if you assume an ASTONISHING (unbelievable) rate of fire of 3 blasts per second - and no rate of fire decrease for casting consume/stricken.

You are looking at roughly 150 dps from stricken + 1.4k dps from consume + 4233 dps from eldritch blast - 5.6k dps. This is the absolute max end of it. There are a vast collection of builds on the forums that do upwards of 7000 dps.

Show me single target dps testing or calculations that put warlock above any of the reworked classes and I will believe you.

When you say that warlocks are outperforming many classes and builds you are right if you are talking about heroics or in terms of aoe trash clearing speed. OR if you are referring to palemasters / sorcerers / clerics / caster druids / fvs / shiradi | all of which are considered at the VERY bottom of the totem pole for class power.