Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[btolson]

Tier Four

Staff Lunge: Damage bonus increased to 2/4/6[W]

Sev~

Consider ditching the animation for this ability, and exchange it with something akin to Shield Charge with a smaller cone of effect (i.e., an attack that allows a variable minimum range, even point blank). Staff Lunge is too awkward to really use, with its substantial minimum distance and long animation time. Trying to hit a moving target is very difficult, and it's always a huge DPS loss if you try to use it as anything but an opener (due to long animation). The Shield Charge animation is just so much more user-friendly and effective.

Edit: clarified as Shield Charge instead of Shield Rush

[Grace_ana]

Thank you for the change to shadow dodge. The fort reduction was way too much of a penalty.

[oradafu]

Consider ditching the animation for this ability, and exchange it with something akin to shield rush with a smaller cone of effect (i.e., an attack that allows a variable minimum range, even point blank). Staff Lunge is too awkward to really use, with its substantial minimum distance and long animation time. Trying to hit a moving target is very difficult, and it's always a huge DPS loss if you try to use it as anything but an opener (due to long animation). The shield rush animation is just so much more user-friendly and effective.

Agreed. In fact, trying to hit a stationary target sucks also. It seems like 75% of the time I use it against a stationary object, like a crystal, the hitbox for the object pushes me of to the side (usually to the right) and I do no damage.

Again, another complaint I had when this ability was first added and the Devs ignored it. I'm sure it's because someone spent too much time doing an animation and someone decided that an under-used/un-used ability was worth taking up a slot because time and money.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like the proposed changes, however there are a few issues with current enhancements that I've noticed on live:

1) "Kip Up": This works, but while I have it trained the icon for "Freedom of Movement" does not show up on my buff bar when others cast it on me. I'm not sure if this merely cosmetic, or if training this enhancement makes me immune to FoM. Please check this.

2) Stength vs Dexterity: If I make my staff rogue strength based, then he can't make use of "Sweeping Strikes". If my staff rogue is dexterity based, then he can't make use of "Trip Focus". No other tree except Kensei has this issue.

3) "Improved Glancing Blows": Could you please add extra damage on glancing blows to this as well? Currently, iirc, only barbarians can increase glancing blow damage via enhancements.

4) "No Mercy": None of the abilities in this tree cause helplessness. Perhaps this enhancement could be changed to work on enemies who are tripped or bluffed? That would be more practical for a rogue.

5) "Staff Lunge": This enhancement has a very odd animation. It feels more like a circular cleave than a 'lunge', and the character simply spins in place if the ability is activated without pressing the "w" key, or whatever is used to more forward.

6) "Vault": Very expensive for something that deals no damage. Could the prerequisites be removed, perhaps?

[oradafu]

I like the proposed changes, however there are a few issues with current enhancements that I've noticed on live:

1) "Kip Up": This works, but while I have it trained the icon for "Freedom of Movement" does not show up on my buff bar when others cast it on me. I'm not sure if this merely cosmetic, or if training this enhancement makes me immune to FoM. Please check this.

2) Stength vs Dexterity: If I make my staff rogue strength based, then he can't make use of "Sweeping Strikes". If my staff rogue is dexterity based, then he can't make use of "Trip Focus". No other tree except Kensei has this issue.

3) "Improved Glancing Blows": Could you please add extra damage on glancing blows to this as well? Currently, iirc, only barbarians can increase glancing blow damage via enhancements.

4) "No Mercy": None of the abilities in this tree cause helplessness. Perhaps this enhancement could be changed to work on enemies who are tripped or bluffed? That would be more practical for a rogue.

5) "Staff Lunge": This enhancement has a very odd animation. It feels more like a circular cleave than a 'lunge', and the character simply spins in place if the ability is activated without pressing the "w" key, or whatever is used to more forward.

6) "Vault": Very expensive for something that deals no damage. Could the prerequisites be removed, perhaps?

All good points and brought up a long time ago.

As for the Kip Up and FoM. They work together. It's an old, old, old problem that's purely cosmetic. I'm not sure how long it's been like that, but I know as far back as Update 8 I used to get clerics mad when I asked for FoM in raids and they had just cast it on me because the icon never appeared.

[Humperdink]

Yes, it makes no sense to buff a glancing blow enhancement if that's not working with staves. I'll bring it up with Q/A so we can check it.

Sev~

Glancing blows currently works with quarterstaves. The fix emerged sometime within the last year, either unannounced or as a byproduct of code change elsewhere. Tested and confirmed by several players here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nd-Staff/page2

[Cardoor]

...


Tier Two

Haste Boost: now costs 1/1/1 AP


Tier Five

Momentum Defense: Each time you are struck with an attack you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 12 seconds. This stacks up to ten times. (Each hit refreshes all stacks, stacks fall off all at once.)

Sev~

The tree is expensive (or has a lot a T/A wants), so the decrease for haste is welcome.

I think I would change "Momentum Defense" to a static dodge bonus plus a static riposte bonus.

I like the changes overall.

Consider ditching the animation for this ability, and exchange it with something akin to Shield Charge with a smaller cone of effect (i.e., an attack that allows a variable minimum range, even point blank). Staff Lunge is too awkward to really use, with its substantial minimum distance and long animation time. Trying to hit a moving target is very difficult, and it's always a huge DPS loss if you try to use it as anything but an opener (due to long animation). The Shield Charge animation is just so much more user-friendly and effective.

Edit: clarified as Shield Charge instead of Shield Rush

Agreed. In fact, trying to hit a stationary target sucks also. It seems like 75% of the time I use it against a stationary object, like a crystal, the hitbox for the object pushes me of to the side (usually to the right) and I do no damage.

Again, another complaint I had when this ability was first added and the Devs ignored it. I'm sure it's because someone spent too much time doing an animation and someone decided that an under-used/un-used ability was worth taking up a slot because time and money.

I like the current animation. At first I didn't because it was a little difficult lining up the foes. I like jumping over giants with it then tripping them from behind too.

When the tree system was first added, I suggested that the Acrobat's each Core Ability should provide a +1 or +2 to tactics...

I like this idea, but I would want their to be a careful balance so that fighters are the tactical combat masters. T/A tactics should be among the best or second best though.

I would like to see sneak attack trip bonuses and in that regard they should be unequaled.

[Ranidae]

Please don't change Sly Flourish.

I tap it when I want to dump aggro of mobs around me.

This will completely disallow dumping aggro once you have it. Just reduce the cooldown to 8 seconds, as planned.

Thanks!

[UurlockYgmeov]

The DC calculations for Trip, Improved Trip and Sweeping Strikes are currently borked and need to be rebalanced before this tree goes live. I should have mentioned that intention in the OP.



Yes, it makes no sense to buff a glancing blow enhancement if that's not working with staves. I'll bring it up with Q/A so we can check it.

Sev~

nicely put - and excellent response.

Presumably unmentioned stuff is left unchanged?

If so - I like it overall - TA was actually a pretty good tree in the first place.

The only thing I would potentially add to the capstone is a MDB+5/Dodge+5 - anyone who goes to cap as a TA should get this bonus to avoid the Nat Gann treatment

Loved the Nat Gann crack - and loved that quest too!

Awesome..wonderful that these show up just in time to distract from the mess of the mimic festival.


Well played good sir, I tip my hat to you.

absolutely incorrigible. :P

It's coming, don't worry. It will be it's own thread. The player's council is still discussing it.

Sev~

if not allowed as dex based it's a problem for most rogues to hit any reasonable dc.

this tree needs to allow dex for to hit / damage.

Glancing blows currently works with quarterstaves. The fix emerged sometime within the last year, either unannounced or as a byproduct of code change elsewhere. Tested and confirmed by several players here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nd-Staff/page2

+1 Thank you for researching and posting!

[Ayseifn]

Please don't change Sly Flourish.

I tap it when I want to dump aggro of mobs around me.

This will completely disallow dumping aggro once you have it. Just reduce the cooldown to 8 seconds, as planned.

Thanks!

Agreed, also sometimes I want aggro and sometimes I do not, having something always on like this gets in the way of that.

[Qhualor]

ive always liked TA tree. there really doesn't seem to be much that really needs a fix or a major boost. all ill say is that

the tree encourages dex builds. kinda hard to get a reasonable DC for tactics if you use dex to hit and damage.

[Joinaxx]

Glancing blows currently works with quarterstaves. The fix emerged sometime within the last year, either unannounced or as a byproduct of code change elsewhere. Tested and confirmed by several players here:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...nd-Staff/page2

i can confirm quarterstaves getting glancing blows from cleaves also. What staves don't have that other weapons do are doublestrike procs from cleaves.

4)Any build with cleave or great cleave: They are currently applying doublestrike to non staff hits despite only being supposed to have 1 hit per mob.

[Nandos]

Nice changes. I have always felt that the staff attack line (Quick Strike > Sweeping Strikes > Staff Lunge > Vault) costs a bit too much AP. All three cost 2/2/2 and Vault costs 2. I look at other trees like Assassin and Tempest and most of their 3 rank attacks cost 1/1/1 instead of 2/2/2 like in Thief-Acrobat.

[Qezuzu]

The cooldowns for the special attacks need to be reduced considerably.

DCs should use the higher of DEX or STR.

Improve Cartwheel Charge's active ability. It's a joke.

Followthrough's duration should be increased or it should hit more enemies.

Acrobat builds are really strong, the tree only needs some tweaks.

[Vyrzain]

From the Acrobat Changes…

“Sly Flourish:”
“Bonus weapon damage increased to 1/2/3[W].”
“Cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.”
“Rather than having the attack reduce threat, the enhancement comes with a passive ability that reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%.”

In the Acrobat line not being changed….thus far…

“Subtlety:”
“-20%/-30%/-40% threat generation with melee attacks. “
“(This enhancement cannot be taken at the same time as other Subtlety enhancements in other trees.)”

Is it safe to assume that this Passive -15% Threat from “Sly Flourish” WILL STACK with “Subtlety” in that Line now?

Thus from this one Line a Rogue can get 55% less Melee Threat?

If it does STACK then would you consider making “Subtlety” ALL Attacks like “Sly Flourish”?


Next, from the Assassin Changes….

“Shiv no longer reduces threat when you attack.”
“It instead offers an additional passive component that reduces threat of all your attacks by 5/10/15%.”
“The attack portion now also makes a Bluff check using your Bluff skill.”

Is it safe to assume that “Shiv” will NOT STACK with “Subtlety” but it DOES STACK with the new “Sly Flourish”?

So a Rogue can get 30% less threat from having both “Shiv” and “Sly Flourish”?

OR

If all these three enhancements do Stack then a Rogue can have 30% less threat for Ranged attacks and 70% less threat for Melee attacks as on the table now?

[Vyrzain]

Thanks for the changes so far.

I do have the same concern as others on “Staff Lunge”.

As it is now the Attack it to hard to do and 90% of the time, for me, it ends up missing my target. I took it off my Bar. So even if you make this attack 6[w] I still feel that I will not be able to use it. Maybe you can look into this more?

[Vyrzain]

I preferred the bugged older shadow dodge (+6 dex) since it really helped with dex flavor builds

How about a multiselector. Choose the old shadow dodge with a huge boost to dex at the cost of fortification, or the new one

I would like this also : )

[SealedInSong]

Some comments I'll make are direct pastes from

this acrobat response from the enhancement pass

.

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Thief-Acrobat tree.

Core Abilities:

Tumbler: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.

Kip Up: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.

Cartwheel Charge: Passive: You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge.

Cartwheel Charge: Passive: You also gain 5% double strike while using staves.
Much better, but please consider changing the utterly useless/insignificant morale bonus to str/dex to something scalable in the game, such as 4 melee power, or +0.5[W] with staves.

Tier One

Sly Flourish: Bonus weapon damage increased to 1/2/3[W]. Rather than having the attack reduce threat, the enhancement comes with a passive ability that reduces the threat of all attacks by 5/10/15%. Cooldown reduced to 8 seconds.


Tier Two

Haste Boost: now costs 1/1/1 AP
Bless you.

Tier Three

Improved Glancing Blows: Chance increased to 4/8/12%.

Shadow Dodge: (2/2/2 AP) No longer a toggle. It no longer reduces Fortification. Shadow Dodge now adds 1/2/3 to Dodge, Maximum Dexterity Bonus for light armor, and Dexterity.
I'm in the minority when I think it makes sense to do the sanity check on the dex bonus.

Tier Four

Staff Lunge: Damage bonus increased to 2/4/6[W]
Others have noted that staff lunge has a problematic graphic. I'd concur.

Moreover, an acrobat's alacrity generally means that any non-auto attack or non-twitch sequence is generally a loss to DPS. With the 20s cooldown even on the highest tier of this ability, it's at most a boredom-reducer.

I rarely if ever use it, mostly because if I'm attacking something, I'd rather it just die sooner. If I want to charge at something and attack it, it's FASTER to run toward it and start twitching than it is to staff lunge at it.

Consider: adding +50% dodge (ignore dodge cap) while doing staff lunging. Reduce cooldown to 20/15/10. This would make it a reasonably attractive option for leaping in and out of the fray on higher difficulties, and not something you forget you even have because it's almost always on cooldown.

Tier Five

Acrobatic Staff Training: You gain +3 to hit and +3 damage with quarterstaves.
Not bad, but again, please consider something truly scalable, i.e. +5 melee power, or +3 melee power and +3 doublestrike.

Momentum Defense: Each time you are struck with an attack you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 12 seconds. This stacks up to ten times. (Each hit refreshes all stacks, stacks fall off all at once.)
No one that plays DDO ever responds well to mechanics that correlate getting hit with becoming more survivable.

The fact is that when it counts in this game for you to not get hit, getting hit once, twice, or at most three times will result in you being dead anyway.

I'd much prefer that momentum defense be a static defensive bonus with a useful active component not contingent on being hit. Remember that being hit on EE as a rogue outside of sentinel means you'll likely be dead in 2-3 hits.

Consider: while moving, gain 10 PRR/MRR. Passive: +3 dodge and maximum dodge.
That would fit into the theme of momentum being to one's defensive advantage, and ALSO encourage people to use more Tumbles and more Staff Lunges.
Sev~

TIER5s
You have space for five items per tier, and there are four for acrobat and they are:
staff training, staff specialization, momentum defense, vault

SHOWTIME
Readd this clicky as a T5, but with some modifications from the historical version:
Activate this ability to gain a +10 bonus to Balance, Jump and Tumble, a 25% action boost [REMOVE: Enhancement] bonus to movement speed, and a +4 bonus to Dexterity for 60 seconds. Base action boost use/day, affected by +action boost effects. [REMOVE: Consumes a use of your Haste Boost ability.]

MOVEMENT SPEED
I really think that you should reintroduce the 10% movement speed bonus again somewhere. This was a big loss to acrobats that many people wanted back during the enhancement. Put it in a core section like it used to be.

Otherwise, looks good. Thank you Sev! This is one of my favorite prestiges and I am very eager to see you put it back where it deserves; as the showiest and most nimble character out there!

[bbqzor]

Here is the first draft of potential changes to the Thief-Acrobat tree.

Rather than itemize this, with the smaller list, Im just going to make some overall comments.

The focus on dodge is impressive. A TA can reasonably run 31-41% dodge, T5 depending. Maybe a bit more with multiclass or destiny stuff. But what they are missing is Ref save. A TA really ought to have good ref save too, I mean honestly, theyre the only tree in game that explicitly sounds like they could dive outta the way of a fireball. Maybe all those "passive +2 dodge caps" could also get +1 Ref save? A better idea would be to have it be +1 Ref save for 18s after tumbling (to match the progression down the cores to 12s then 6s for more powerful things), and an additional +1 Ref save WHILE tumbling. So you get +2 during the animation, then +1 for 18s after (or +6/3 for the whole core). I mean if you can dodge a wrench, you certainly should be able to dodge a (fire)dodgeball =p

The fixes to Sly Flourish, Haste Boost, and Shadow Dodge are welcome. I know the stance change is a nerf to some things, but I am glad to not have to mess with toggling stuff anymore all the time and dealing with it. Its good that it will work as advertised, the game has enough errors and gotchas it doesnt need more.

Any chance Staff Lunge could get a knockdown added to it? The class is kind of about knocking stuff down on vorpals, or with trips, or what not. Why not take a page from all the other move+knockdown abilities and include one here? Especially since even with the 6W you lose a lot of swing time with the animation, and the cooldown is a bit lengthy. As for the DC on such a knockdown...

The DC calculations for Trip, Improved Trip and Sweeping Strikes are currently borked and need to be rebalanced before this tree goes live.

Okay, not sure what about Trip isnt right per se, but Sweeping Strikes definitely doesnt have a good formula. It should include Vertigo at a minimum. The tree even has a +trip (ie, vertigo) enhancement line. Allowing those to come into play here would be a no brainer. If you are intending to do some work there we havent seen yet, Im not sure what else I can say. But I second that the formula needs a do over. Likewise, for a knockdown on Lunge, a good formula is critical.

Yes, it makes no sense to buff a glancing blow enhancement if that's not working with staves. I'll bring it up with Q/A so we can check it.

Not sure what QA has to do with it... quaterstaves have less glance points in their animations. Its just a "rule", same as how greataxes swing faster than greatswords. Its been a long, long time since I ran a staff centric guy so Ill refrain from any specifics, but theyre definitely not a "glance focused" weapon. Its why you never see quarterstaff barbs.... they lose too much to pursue it. That said, itd be nice if this enhancement let them. It might even spawn a lot of light armor evasion rog/barb staff guys or something to break up the typical monk/rog combos. So maybe you can redo some of the code there and change it up (and if thats what you meant then okay I can see QA getting involved) but as it stands its not broken, its just not a good idea. Id welcome a change though.

And last, this tree doesnt have any Melee Power debuff, or PRR gain, like assassin does. Now I know rogues arent "tanky" yea yea. But check it, an assassin can at least be reasonably considered to have tried to get good stealth too, and they get some mitigation tools on top. A TA on the other hand, its a class that rewards cleaves, having lots of guys near you (capstone, lunge to move through a pack, etc), and generally being in the middle of a big fight. To do that, youre not sneaking, your not fighting one mob at a time, and youre not going to avoid getting hit. Yes, they have a lot of dodge... but they still have d6 hp and nothing else. Can they maybe get something like "Improved Defensive Roll also passively adds +3/6/10 PRR at the three enhancement tiers"? I mean that takes one of their "rog feat options", none of the other enhancements force your hand there. And again, if they lose 5 prr over armor up, theyre gonna be in the hole. Dont put rogues in the hole. All the trees need some kinda PRR or mitigation, and I think 10 PRR (or 5 after armor down) for spending a "rogue feat" and the AP is fair, and the best place to put it. Thanks.

Edit: I saw someone mention somewhere else that TA should maybe get a move speed thing like stanced fighters or swashbucklers. And yes, seconded. A TA running faster would be pretty cool. Maybe in T5 they could get a +10% run speed thing? I think that would be pretty welcome, make the T5 a little more exciting, and help them move faster while sneaking too which would be fitting. Was a good idea to read, hats off other posters.

[Oxarhamar]

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