Update 22 - Swashbuckler Tree Preview Discussion

[Furelli]

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5333501]We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.

QUOTE]

I believe this would be overkill. If the problem is the six feat investment and Dwarven Axe or Bastard Sword glancing blows then regulate it don't eliminate it.

Two alternatives to a flat out ban:
1) GSWF and GTHF are mutually exclusive.
2) Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword (and possibly Warhammer for theme) gain half melee alacrity from SWF line (ie +5%, +10% and +15%) as really they are hand and a half weapons.

Furelli

[Nightmanis]

[QUOTE=Furelli;5334016]

We're currently leaning towards making THF and SWF mutually exclusive, with the current versions of the feats.

QUOTE]

I believe this would be overkill. If the problem is the six feat investment and Dwarven Axe or Bastard Sword glancing blows then regulate it don't eliminate it.

Two alternatives to a flat out ban:
1) GSWF and GTHF are mutually exclusive.
2) Dwarven Axe and Bastard Sword (and possibly Warhammer for theme) gain half melee alacrity from SWF line (ie +5%, +10% and +15%) as really they are hand and a half weapons.

Furelli

I like that. They get half the speed bonus because they're so much heavier than something like a rapier. That would be a good way to bring them in line.

[Hilltrot]

With proper technique you strike as hard with a dagger as you do with a two handed sword.

This is false. If someone can fully lift and swing a two-handed sword, one will always be able to strike harder than if one used a dagger. The two-handed sword has a greater moment than the dagger.

A simple example is a hammer. Try hammering a nail in without the handle. You will automatically find that hammering is more difficult.

"With proper technique you can do more damage with a dagger as you do with a two handed sword."

This is more appropriate. Remember, slashing weapons became less popular because armor improved. Weapons made to pierce the armor at key points would often cause the killing blow.

With a single weapon you can focus your attack. With two weapons, you're just trying to swing as quickly as you can.

And of course, this is fantasy, not reality. I have yet to meet someone with natural vertical and horizontal jump of my character. Hit points are a very vague measure of being able to take damage.

[Cetus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvlhXuweBj4

Basically, you can stick the dagger into the enemy then push it in with your buckler.
Damge is even higher if you use a rapier or any larger weapon since you can add not the only the force of the pierce/slash attempt but also the force of the bash, which overall will be more force aka more damage to the target then a 2handed swing.
From personal experience with axe more damage is aplied if you use for example a hammer to push the axe into wood after just pushing it a little bit in then on the inital slash /bad with english so cant translate terms correctly from my native, but i do have some experience since i was doing woodwork with people who won lotsa prizes in country regions in choping ---- you meet strange people during your life ---

(why am i arguing over this lol)

that video made me laugh -

now compare it to this one:

[Leclaire1]

The swashbuckler tree is good in my opinion, now that it has dex-to-damage as a clear path. A coup de grace ability would be awesome, however, and make it a truly desirable path, so I do support adding something like that in. If so, I might even do my bard life next!

As for SWF, I'll throw my hat in with those who think there is still some more balancing work to be done. The alacrity and fort bypass are good, but it needs something more and the 200% stat is definitely way overpowered, esp. as SWF doesn't have anything by way of stat requirements as the other two styles do. That part needs to go, but it does need to be replaced with something. As to the suggestion of having a double stat bonus, I think that is a vast improvement on the first suggestion, but still not one I am excited about. Unlike many others I have a strong preference for dex builds, and the thought of having to build some strength in to make these feats fully relevant is kind of a nuisance, and I have the feeling STR build peeps would have similar feelings about building dex in. As such, I prefer the single stat approach, but it needs to be more balanced. Since you're looking for player ideas, I'll give you two of mine, both of which build off of the current proposal without the stat increase stuff, and which represent different directions for the feats.

Proposal A

In this proposal, the current iteration of the feats remain the same, but GSWF adds 1.5 stat to damage, just the THF. Thus when all feats are take, one gets the same base DPS as THF, but gives better single target DPS (on account of the alacrity), fort bypass, but no glancing blows. So THF has the advantage of giving stat damage with minimal investment and AOE damage with glancing blows, but SWF fully maxed out can do better single target DPS and will have some advantages with bosses. TWF will still be the king of single-target DPS (as it should be), but it requires building for at least some dexterity and carries the normal (albeit minor) penalties for TWF. It also is a bit behind with bosses due to the AP.

This proposal is less sexy than the second one, but it seems balanced and allows SWF to have its own style. One could also modify it by adding a few defensive perks and tiers 1 and 2 if it is seen to need a bit more power early on.

Proposal B

This proposal is more simple, and may or may not be balanced (hard for me to tell at this point), but I know we would all like it assuming it doesn't turn out to be to OP in a different way. It may also have been suggested earlier in one of four threads on this topic (its hard to keep track of all the proposlas), so if I am repetitive I apologize. It still builds off of the current proposal for extra alacrity and AP, but adds an increased critical threat range at ISWF and an increased multiplier at GSWF.
This gives it a bit of extra punch, brings a variety of weapons back into the game as useful, and definitely thematically fits the precision emphasis of SWF. It probably won't out DPS TWF as that gives roughly twice the number of attacks, and doesn't have any of the glancing blows or extra stat power of THF, but it will be fun seeing those pretty numbers on the screen and will be easy to attain.

This proposal is probably more powerful but also more interesting, fun, and thematically appropriate that the other one.



Also, on a separate issue, while I may be burned at the stake for saying this, but I would personally like to see both THF and SWF be applicable to Bastard Swords and Dwarven Axes. These weapons are great in pnp, but require a special feat and yet get the massive shaft in ddo. Not only are they inferior to high crit one-handed weapons and all usable two-handed weapons, but there are very few non-crafted endgame versions of these weapons that are remotely worth wielding (Nightmare and the impossible to get eChimera's Fang being the only exceptions). While there might be some balancing to do so that builds using both styles doesn't allow one to get the THF stat bonus until later, I think the power of using both styles would be limited by the fact that one has to take seven feats just to get both, which would likely only be attainable by certain fighter builds. But that's just my two cents in favor of these neglected but expensive (feat wise) weapons.

[Nibor]

If you want to know how this has been estimated take a look here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9L...it?usp=sharing .

This is an Excel Sheet i work on from time to time... Many Features on it (like Momentum Swing, Lay Waste, AutoCleave modes, etc.) are imperfect and may lead to estimation errors: for the example shown above i excluded all of them and simply used the base Auto Attack Mode, No Boosts and no particular class skills. The attack speed index are the ones from this post: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-and-Formulae . Sword & Board Attack Speeds are the same as One-Handed. I also took into account glancing blows on both weapon styles. It's 3 feats VS 6 feats + PTHF and PTWF.

If there are any errors and you can point me back i would appreciate.

_____________________________________________

Both are Frenzied Berseker Barbarians (Zavarthak is my Main) with endgame equipment. I've considered for Thunderforged Weapons: 1st Degree Burn 5d6 (no vulnerability), Dragon Edge, Crippling Fire. Also i've used Dragon Masque and considered a bunch of pastlives.

This is interesting - but there's a side to it no one is discussing. You're using Thunderforged weapons, which are already known to be unbalanced in that they care about crit range rather than crit multiplier. Which is why you have to compare Falchion to Bastard Sword.

What happens if you make the Thunderforged weapon on crit damage scale with multiplier (basically elemental crit damage * (multiplier -1), like the bursts) and then used something like properly spec'd Great Axe?

I think your result may be more a statement that Thunderforged weapons prefer the proposed SWF rather than SWF in general is better.

[Cetus]

This is interesting - but there's a side to it no one is discussing. You're using Thunderforged weapons, which are already known to be unbalanced in that they care about crit range rather than crit multiplier. Which is why you have to compare Falchion to Bastard Sword.

What happens if you make the Thunderforged weapon on crit damage scale with multiplier (basically elemental crit damage * (multiplier -1), like the bursts) and then used something like properly spec'd Great Axe?

I think your result may be more a statement that Thunderforged weapons prefer the proposed SWF rather than SWF in general is better.

I actually like this suggestion - let the multiplier affect the damage each mutation on the weapon makes. But then the same situation will emerge, since you can take out bastard sword for dwarven axes.

[Zerkul]

I have two opinions going on in my mind right now about SWF, one objective and one very much subjective... I think the SWF style has too much of what THF should have (increased ability mod for damage), I think that being a Barbarian in endgame is getting everyday less appealing (lol).

Guess which one is the subjective.

EDIT: @Nibor: I have the tendency to compare things at endgame because it what i love more, but just taking a look at the old SWF version makes me think it's OP even with other weapons. You can try to compare other mid-level weapons by downloading the excel sheet or just PM me two weapons you'd like to compare and i'll post them when i got time.

I actually like this suggestion - let the multiplier affect the damage each mutation on the weapon makes. But then the same situation will emerge, since you can take out bastard sword for dwarven axes.

That's why my Barbarian doesn't like Thunderforged weapons that much , we don't get expanded crit range for the best DPS tree but only for the "other one".

[PermaBanned]

This is false. Its the human body generating the force not the weapon. The more mass, the less acceleration when the same person is using each weapon.

F=Ma ~ F=mA

Thats has to do with weapon type. Same reason a sword will not cut a tree down as fast as an ax, even though both can be swung with the same force.

Take your favorite Pro Baseball player, give him a solid wood bat and measure the force he hits with; then give the same guy a hollow plastic wifile ball bat and measure the force he hits with. Weapon type matters.

[Seikojin]

Just give me a lever, a place to stand, and Swashbuckler or SWF feedback.

SWF: Allow Stalwart defender and Sacred defender pre stances to bypass the shield limitation for SWF. Add the anti-req for thf to swf and vice versa.

Swashbuckler: I think adding a death hit like assassinate is perfect.

[Nibor]

EDIT: @Nibor: I have the tendency to compare things at endgame because it what i love more, but just taking a look at the old SWF version makes me think it's OP even with other weapons. You can try to compare other mid-level weapons by downloading the excel sheet or just PM me two weapons you'd like to compare and i'll post them when i got time.

That's why my Barbarian doesn't like Thunderforged weapons that much , we don't get expanded crit range for the best DPS tree but only for the "other one".

I figured out how to d/l the sheet rather than just view the images and did some comparisons - the reason I asked wasn't because I was thinking of non-endgame, but rather imagining that there might be further weapons at endgame that are a different style than Thunderforged, and if they rewarded larger crit multipliers differently, then perhaps in 9 months THF would outperform SWF.

After running the numbers it's pretty clear it doesn't really matter the weapon design - SWF getting 30% attack speed is just impossible to overcome.

[Zerkul]

• NEW (LAMANNIA ONLY): Tier 5 of Swashbuckler now has a new ability: Coup de Grace. (Multiselector, Melee or Ranged Attack): Make an attack with +3[W]. If it strikes any Fascinated, Sleeping, Dancing, Dazed, Tripped, Mesmerized, Paralyzed, Petrified, or Stunned enemy, it must make a Fortitude save (d20 + your Perform skill) or die instantly.

Cooldown on this attack? Execution time? Can anyone test? ...

[thegreatneil]

Cooldown on this attack? Execution time? Can anyone test? ...

Listed as 12 seconds.

I read it, didn't field test it.

Personally I feel this is well, OP.

Yes I said bards are OP.

[Zerkul]

Listed as 12 seconds.

I read it, didn't field test it.

Personally I feel this is well, OP.

Yes I said bards are OP.

I don't like to scream for nerfs, but potentially you can fascinate a room of mobs and kill them one by one. Add to this utility the DPS boost you get in this update by SWF and Swashbuckler you get a pretty good OP picture. The save negate for kill might be in range around 80 which is barely beatable.

I suggest that using this ability unfascinate all nearby fascinated, mesmerized mobs: it's predictable that mobs after seeing a comrade killed comes back into action.

[Mryal]

I don't like to scream for nerfs, but potentially you can fascinate a room of mobs and kill them one by one. Add to this utility the DPS boost you get in this update by SWF and Swashbuckler you get a pretty good OP picture. The save negate for kill might be in range around 80 which is barely beatable.

I suggest that using this ability unfascinate all nearby fascinated, mesmerized mobs: it's predictable that mobs after seeing a comrade killed comes back into action.

They are magicaly fascinated.And they never came back to action when 3 barbs with cleaves would butcher a mob in front of em before unless they were hit aswell.

OP? oh please.Its 12 seconds and requires CC to work.You can fascinate and kill one by one? yea.What are the odds that in those 12 seconds youre party would have alredy killed more than 2 fascinated mobs if you didnt have this abbility? pretty high.
You gotta consider that in a world where pretty much all characters have either IPS,2-3 different cooldown cleaves or massive AOE arcane damage, fascinate lowers your overall party DPS considerably.Whats wrong with giving bards a tier 5 thing (wich requires specialization then not only in bards but also within bards - tier 5 on swashbuckler means you gave up a lot by not taking SS tier 5's) that helps a LITTLE in speeding up the process.
And that has no effect on bosses...

[maddmatt70]

Cooldown on this attack? Execution time? Can anyone test? ...

My question exactly. What is the cooldown and speed of attack. It could be great if not super long cooldown and relatively fast attack.

[maddmatt70]

I don't like to scream for nerfs, but potentially you can fascinate a room of mobs and kill them one by one. Add to this utility the DPS boost you get in this update by SWF and Swashbuckler you get a pretty good OP picture. The save negate for kill might be in range around 80 which is barely beatable.

I suggest that using this ability unfascinate all nearby fascinated, mesmerized mobs: it's predictable that mobs after seeing a comrade killed comes back into action.

Fascinate takes too long. I would be charisma based and use soundburst and then use this special attack. Honestly i am o.k. with this when you compare bards to rogues and monks. The assasinate and quivering palm have similiar cooldowns - obviously a bard can get a higher dc on coup, but otherwise rogues and monks bring a lot more to the table then bards so if this ability was better then assasinate and quivering palm I would be o.k. with that because bards need more.

[thegreatneil]

OP? oh please.Its 12 seconds and requires CC to work.You can fascinate and kill one by one? yea.What are the odds that in those 12 seconds youre party would have alredy killed more than 2 fascinated mobs if you didnt have this abbility? pretty high.
You gotta consider that in a world where pretty much all characters have either IPS,2-3 different cooldown cleaves or massive AOE arcane damage, fascinate lowers your overall party DPS considerably.Whats wrong with giving bards a tier 5 thing (wich requires specialization then not only in bards but also within bards - tier 5 on swashbuckler means you gave up a lot by not taking SS tier 5's) that helps a LITTLE in speeding up the process.
And that has no effect on bosses...

Quickened hypno then ranged Coup de Grace.

Round em up in a disco ball and IPS a Coup de Grace.

that's just off the top of my head.

[jakeelala]

I don't like to scream for nerfs, but potentially you can fascinate a room of mobs and kill them one by one. Add to this utility the DPS boost you get in this update by SWF and Swashbuckler you get a pretty good OP picture. The save negate for kill might be in range around 80 which is barely beatable.

I suggest that using this ability unfascinate all nearby fascinated, mesmerized mobs: it's predictable that mobs after seeing a comrade killed comes back into action.

Just what else exactly is a bard supposed to do?

There's nothing wrong with this. Fascinating a room of mobs and killing them 1 by 1 is not different than assassinating two mobs at a time on a rogue.

Leave this alone and let it play out on live. If it's super mega OP they can fix it.

[PermaBanned]

Quickened hypno then ranged Coup de Grace.

Round em up in a disco ball and IPS a Coup de Grace.

that's just off the top of my head.

Hypno isn't on the list, Sleep is though...

IPS/CdG will only Instakill mobs in a straight line, a group dance party would have some to several survivors pending the size & shape of the group.

And it's a T5 with zero effect vs bosses...

Not OP, just frickin' sweet ^^