Swashbuckler

[Desonde]

Core Abilities

1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.

This seems a little light to me especially since low level benefits much more from DR than dodge (dodge doesn't become more practical until the damage you take can't be greatly-fully mitigated by DR). Maybe 1% dodge per core enhancement.

5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)

There are a few items, and a few enhancements that open this up to a few options that aren't addressed later on, (Tempest Core 2 turns Scimitars into Finesseable weapons, Shining Crescents [Two handed sickle]) what happens when those are true?

Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
Handaxe: +2 Range
Light Pick: +1 Range

What about Kama?

10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.

I like this.

20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

This is close, it's a little on the weak side though, at this point dodge in light armor will be approaching it's cap if it hasn't already exceeded it. The Doublestrike/shot chance is ok, it otherwise equates to +2dmg +1 to hit +1 Reflex which seems low for 12 bard levels.

30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.

Slippery Mind is good, and the Dodge Cap is going to be needed on this character (Why Insight, it implies that there will be other sources that negate this enhancement, which shouldn't be the case for an 18 level investment, this needs to stack with every other dodge cap bonus). This is another one of those, 'it could be good if the 20th level ability holds up'.

41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Doesn't hold up against other sources of Evasion (If you want the dodge cap, you could easily splash 2 Rogue/Monk, or if the 18 and 12 don't sell you, 9 Ranger and you get the key ability from the Capstone plus more places to boost you skills [all of which will synergize a lot better than going 20 into the class tree with very little drawbacks]).

Tier One
On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge

This is very good to have, but it's going to mean that Light armor isn't going to be worn by this class either because the dodge cap will be obtained at level 3?

Blow By Blow:
Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.

What's the cool down? This can be a very nice ability, but can be killed with cool down [6-10seconds is the range of usefulness w/o being OP].

Multiselector: Insults
Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)

I'd rather see this as a toggle that functions as a small aura and draws aggro. It's a little much to ask the user to cast this then follow up with the CC spell they need. [Even make it 3 ranks at 1/2/3].

Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

I like both of these, only question why the cooldown is longer than 6 seconds?

Tier Two
En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.

Needs a ranged alternative if you want to keep throwing weapons a focus here (unless wind at my back is the alternative in which case this is greatly under powered).

Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)

Here's where the Tempest flaw comes in. You can't make a core ability an antireq, it will prevent them from getting higher level ability (since an 18/2 split would still allow them to qualify for Whirlwind), and if you mean the tempest improved defense, than what is the AP cost going to be since it won't have the AC bonus and will prevent the tempest skill (which other than not granting Deflect Arrows is better than this).

I suggest moving Deflect Arrows feat to the Core 1 ability, drop the Antireq from Tempest and add the condition 'while swashbuckling', this way the two lines will not overlap and won't cause issues.

Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).

It's not quite enough, needs to be 5-10(3/6/9) Temp hitpoints per bard level and 1d3/1d4/1d6+3/4/6 per 4 Bard levels

Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)

This is going to be the skill splashes will focus on.

Multiselector:
Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Perfect.

Tier Three
Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

Cooldown per creature or for the skill. It's too slow for it to be the skill [too limiting since it could trigger on an immune mob and burn it].

Swashbuckling Style: [*]Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.[*]Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.[*]Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.[*]Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.

Scoundrel is good, Skrimisher comes back to what's you dodge cap at? And I'm confused about Buckler-specific abilities, if there are some in this tree (other than the Skrimisher one) they haven't left a memorable impression on me.

Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.

Another key skill that's going to be splashed.

Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus.
CHA/DEX

Both good

Tier Four
On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)

Will the stack with the other classes dual +confirm +dmg? [this should cost 2ap].

Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.

This needs a lot of help. The damage is fine (I think it's funny, especially if you add a slapping animation), how you prevent the enemies from casting spells is going to be critical, as the monk finisher that does the same thing doesn't work on 75%+ mobs due to them being immune. Since everything else in the skill functions like a joke this needs to be viable.

Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.

What's the cooldown? [Should really be 5sp with 6sec cooldown]

Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.
Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.

These two are perfect [especially since they require a prereq].

Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.

Not sure if it warrants 2 AP [It would if it's Destruction and Destruction+Improved Destruction {and if they still stack}].

Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
CHA/DEX

Wind at my Back is very powerful [might be considered a T5 ability if you can create an equally powerful melee buff]

Tier Five
Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Thread the Needle is very strong, not sure if it's a T5 ability, maybe a T4 [it's built in to not stack with power attack so it doesn't need to take up the T5 slot {especially when their is only one other T5 ability in the tree}. At T4 it will still require 4 bard levels and more than 25% of the total AP spend]

Exploit Weaknesses' viability is going to depend on the one handed weapon feats as TWF and Shurikens (since other thrown weapons aren't likely to be used, or as effective) will attack so quickly that the requirement of being Swashbuckling won't be enough to bring them into the T5 abilities [coupled with the fact that you can just use Power Attack to get the +5 damage on none thrown weapons].

Overall it's looking really good, just needs more incentive to go into the higher level stuff otherwise you'll probably just see more of a focus towards shuriken builds adding more damage to each thrown weapon.

[GMoneyMackDaddy]

Isnt the epic elyd edge (aka geddy lee) cha to damage?

Also, its finessable.

Just saying.... (my bard has 2, will have to find a nice buckler now)

[Systern]

Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.

At present, activating the offensive Precision stance will deactivate the defensive Swashbuckling stance. So, this can't work as designed.

[WanderingGrump]

It's hard to fully judge this as a PrE without seeing what the Single Weapon Feats will look like but on a feat starved class like Bard I can see no harm in doing an autogrant of the Finesse feat or other form of Cha to hit/damage or even Dex to hit/damage given this is split between the Single Weapon line and the Thrower type buffs. I have no doubt this could be made entirely viable in Heroic content and I can see it being a fun flavor build either to run around with a Rapier or doing the Thrower type just to not be a Monk shuriken chucker. Unfortunately the question that comes to mind is how it would scale into Epic content over EN/EH content?

Evasion is nice for a capstone but would you have the Reflex saves to make it viable or will that require you to force spec 2 twists for Reflex save bonuses? Even with a Dodge capped at 30% would the low base PRR you are likely to run with the build work given you aren't going to get a decent AC at all. I suspect getting an AC over 60 would be quite a challenge unless there is something I am missing. The other thing is would this be viable with heavier blades like a Scimitar (Pirate Cutlass come on... it's in made for this) or even something heavier such as a Bastard Sword? I can see limiting you to not using Bastard Swords I suppose but for build variety it might be interesting.

Another thought on the Insults that unless they are buffed I can't see spending any AP on them. Now if instead of just one you were granted all 3 abilities that might be worthy but they are still very weak in my view.

Already I can see two build that interest me to try based on the tree presented. The first would be a Pure PDK Bard, CHA based using Celestia and the second a Thrower Build of 15 Bard/3 Rogue/2 Artificer probably using Shurikens mostly but any thrower will work. The Race on the thrower build would probably work either Shadar Kai, Halfling or perhaps a Drow. These are the two builds that might be viable to me and then probably only in EH content I expect. If we end up with a way to do DEX/CHA to hit/damage that might change how I would build a Swashbuckler. Hard to say until Lama-land is open and we get more details on the feats but it looks a fun build.

I have to say this is an interesting effort and I really look forward to seeing what the Feats will look like and wonder just how badly I would want to take them on such a feat starved class.

[FlaviusMaximus]

Things I Like:

I like the concept of a single weapon fighter in general. Having an additional, very different combat option is going to be great.

I like the additional weapon damage, proc damage, doublestrike/shot, crit damage, and additional crit procs through Thread the Needle, the core abilities, the Swashbuckling stance, Resonant Arms, and Exploit Weaknesses.

I like the capstone. A lot of people have been suggesting that capstones need to at least equal the power of a two level splash, and this capstone delivers on that. It shows that the devs are taking player suggestions into account and acting on them.

I like the defense and tactics offered through Arrow Deflection, Swift Strikes, the core abilities, Battering Barrage, and Low Blow.

I like Insults a lot if the cooldown is reasonable. It could make caster Bards a lot happier while at the same time make Bard splashes a good option for casters. It could even benefit melees looking to land their tactical feats.

Overall, it's a great start.

Suggestions:

Add more doublestrike.

There are plenty of great ways to boost single weapon damage in the tree, but I don't believe it's enough. No, a Swashbuckler should not be equal to the Fighter or Barbarian when it comes to DPS output since Bards get songs and spells and the tree gives a decent amount of defense on top of it, but the damage output still needs a boost. Without a damage output that comes closer to the other classes, the tree will be unpopular and folks will continue to complain that Bards need love.

To me, it's a matter of needing more doublestrike. Even with the damage and crit boosts, the tree needs a good deal more doublestrike to make up for the loss of attacks from an offhand weapon and/or the inability to get glancing blows.

This is going to sound extreme, but I would increase the doublestrike/doubleshot for each core ability seven-fold and additionally make the increase available at each tier (1, 3, 6, 12, 18, 20). That would mean that a pure bard could get a unique 42% doublestrike. To me, that's what it would take, along with the existing bonuses, to get the Swashbuckler up to a DPS level that would make rolling one hard to pass up.

Sure there are plenty of other doublestrike bonuses available in game, but they are accessible to anyone. The +9% from epic past lives and +8% from the Skirmisher's Bracers can be enjoyed by all, and while the Swashbuckler could potentially do a bit more damage with those doublestrikes with their improved crit profiles, the doublestrike from those sources is mostly a wash since anyone can get them. The +8% from Improved Shield Mastery and +7% from twisting Legendary Shield Mastery (what I would be doing if I rolled a Swashbuckler), on the other hand, are bonuses that only tanks and Swashbucklers are going to enjoy. That's a fairly legit +15% doublestrike, and combined with the potential +42% from the tree, a pure Swashbuckler Bard could get up to +57% doublestrike. Combined with the other damage bonuses, the Swashbuckler gets close enough to the DPS of other classes to start becoming a legit option, in my mind. I believe it would still fall a bit short of the meatier classes, but the goal is to bring Swashbucklers close to them but not equal when it comes to DPS.

The other big suggestion would be to allow for dex to damage for all finesse weapons somewhere in the core abilities. The reasons for this are fairly obvious. Charisma to damage would be a nice option too, but dex to damage is the primary need.

Lastly, given the abilities in the tree that function on sonic spell power, each point spent in the tree should boost sonic spellpower.


Again, I'm very happy with how things are looking so far, and I'm looking forward to having another unique combat option to play around with. With a bit of tweaking, single weapon combat should be a lot of fun.

[Nayus]

Handwraps are finessable. You should put the standard handwraps disclaimer in, because right now that description makes it look like wraps are compatible.

Well, it does say to wear nothing or a buckler in your offhand, by your logic one could swashbuckle with a Sword of Shadows.

@Enh: It looks pretty awesome, I wouldn't mind if it was released in the world right now except that... from my experience as a Sword and Board fighter (who has as much doublestrike as this enhancement offers, glancing blows and shield bashes in addition to all the defenses) this enhancement still needs more DPS.

Resonant Arms though... looks quite something, it's 21 base damage on a crit, I would like to see for how much this would hit on a max spell power build. As I said, this enhancement trees looks awesome in design, may need a few power adjustments but that's what we have Lammania for.

[Sebastrd]

Hi! We’re writing to give you an early look at the Swashbuckler, an upcoming Bard Prestige Enhancement line coming to DDO with Update 22. A major focus of Swashbuckler is a new style of fighting in DDO: Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re working on creating a line of Single-Weapon Fighting Feats, similar in power and scope to Two-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting, tentatively giving some Dodge and Armor Piercing (ignoring enemy Fortification.) The Swashbuckler also supports Thrown Weapon builds. The Swashbuckler’s Sonic damage scales with Spellpower in most places.

We believe having the Swashbuckler focus on Single-Weapon Fighting makes for interesting build options, both for pure Bards and multi-classed characters. We’ve also worked to make sure that players can spend a moderate amount of points in the Swashbuckler tree and receive good benefits, even if the build isn’t focusing on Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re hoping to find time to improve Warchanter and Spellsinger as well, although those improvements are likely more limited in scope, and those changes may end up delayed beyond the launch of Update 22.

Please take a look at the Swashbuckler, and give us your comments, general ideas, and larger reactions in addition to feedback on individual abilities. As usual, this is an early look, so details may change, including names, individual numbers, including AP costs, and any balance concerns (which we welcome your input on.)

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Light on Your Feet: Passive: +1% Dodge, +1 AC, +1 Reflex for each Core enhancement taken in this tree. 1% Dodge is not powerful at level 1. I recently started a thread wherein the consensus was that even 2% dodge is pretty useless at level 1.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 2% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand, and can use your dexterity or charisma modifier for to-hit and damage with Finessable weapons. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.) If you're making Swashbuckler a Bard tree, it needs to be bard friendly from stat and feat standpoints.
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Range
    Light Pick: +1 Range
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 2% Doublestrike, 2% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain 2% Doublestrike, 2% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus, and the Evasion feat.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the max dex bonus of light armor you wear improves by +5 , the Slippery Mind feat, +2% Doublestrike, 2% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Improved Evasion feat, +2% Doublestrike, 2% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

5% Doublestrike/Doubleshot is just not enough considering what has to be given up. As others have pointed out, if the capstone is to be worthwhile, this needs to provide a boost to reflex saves. I think +5 by capstone is reasonable. On top of that, I don't think Evasion at 12 and Improved at 20 are out of line. This is an enhancement line for a class that needs to catch up in power, not maintain it.


Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals (1d10/2d10/3d10) extra Sonic damage. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power. Input reasonable numbers for the sonic damage, and removed the threat decrease. The Swashbuckler is all about being flashy and attracting attention, and a threat reducer synergizes poorly with a lot of the enhancements in here that want enemies to be attacking (and missing) you.
   
   
3. Multiselector: Insults I don't think you need a multiselector here, other than to use more cool ability names . Make it one ability that reduces enemy saves by 3 and deals 1d4 (1d2+2) sonic damage per bard level that scales with Spell Power (15 SP, 6 sec cooldown). Tacking some damage onto debuff abilities makes them a whole lot more useful and interesting. No one uses straight debuffs!
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown. I like the bonus for taking all three ranks.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate. You had me until the -1 modifier. No thank you.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown). You guys seem to be overestimating this one. 6 temps at level 2 is one hit. At best you're looking at 6+4d6 hp, or an average of 24 hp (and why the 9 seconds with healing every 2? Does the healing start on the second second?) I recommend doubling it, for a max of 120 temps and 2d6 every 2 seconds at level 20 bard. That puts it just below Coccoon in power level, but it requires 20 bard levels.
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)
5. Multiselector: These are nice and a nice twist on the action boost type of enhancement.
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds. 5% seems about right - basically the same chance of getting crit.
2. Swashbuckling Style: These are cool.
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
   3. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
   4. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower. Seems underwhelming until you realize how often this thing will crit. Nice.
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus. Always welcome.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers) Thank you for putting the confirmation and damage in a single enhancement.
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points. I love the concept, but I'm not sure a 1 second stun with an 18 second cooldown is that great. This is going to miss a lot just because of wonky combat mechanics and targeting.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points. Nice.
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power. This should be more like +25 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels. You should add a healthy dose of Doubleshot (at least 25%), or simply replace this completely with some type of expertise/10k stars ability. Even if it turns out to be decent, it's boring.
5. CHA/DEX

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.
3. Hey You Guuyyys!: While Swashbuckling, you are immune to falling damage.

I'm a huge fan of this tree, but it needs a boost. I'm also a huge fan of making SWF its own style.

Feat	Type	Description	Prerequisites
Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 11, Dex 11
Improved Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain an additional 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 13, Dex 13, BAB +6
Greater Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain an additional 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 15, Dex 15, BAB +11
Single Weapon Defense	Passive	Grants a +1 AC bonus and 2% Dodge bonus when wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand.	SWF

[Grosbeak07]

At present, activating the offensive Precision stance will deactivate the defensive Swashbuckling stance. So, this can't work as designed.

You have tested this?

I get what you are saying, but I suspect they will allow it to work.

[CaptainSpacePony]

snip
Also, make it so that an Elf with the Grace enhancement can use longswords and/or scimitars as swashbuckling weapons, and increase some of the defensive bonuses based on the size of the off-hand weapon. Swashbuckling should not be compatible with tower shields.

Issue 2)
Many other trees give dexterity to damge. Why not this one? I would suggest making it so that the tree automatically gives weapon finesse as a first level or third level core ability, with the caveat that the character also gains their dexterity modifier to *damage* with finessable weapons if they have picked weapon finesse as a feat.

I agree with the above.

On another, more emphatic note:
KILL FAST MOVEMENT. Yes we all love faster movement, but there is no flavor-justification for this. Zoro and his ilk were not especially fleet of foot, certainly not when compared to barbarians of lore that would run for days. Iconic swashbucklers were much more likely to be horsemen than runners. We accepted warchanter's sprint boost since they were supposed to be singing barbarians. All flavor aside, bards are one of the few classed that get haste as a spell and do not rate this.

[nibel]

I am obligated to say that I have not read the rest of the topic because of its sheer size, and have zero experience with bards after the enhancement pass. I also do not play Epic Elite.

Hi! We’re writing to give you an early look at the Swashbuckler, an upcoming Bard Prestige Enhancement line coming to DDO with Update 22.

Thank you for the preview on sketch mode instead of Lamannia.

A major focus of Swashbuckler is a new style of fighting in DDO: Single-Weapon Fighting. We’re working on creating a line of Single-Weapon Fighting Feats, similar in power and scope to Two-Weapon and Two-Handed Fighting, tentatively giving some Dodge and Armor Piercing (ignoring enemy Fortification.) The Swashbuckler also supports Thrown Weapon builds. The Swashbuckler’s Sonic damage scales with Spellpower in most places.

Throw weapon support is a split benefit in my eyes. In one hand, it will help that we can keep some kind of ranged attack while swashbuckling. On the other hand, with the current popularity of shuricannons, every throw-supported tree will be compared with them, and absolutely no thrown weapon can measure up with shurikens because of Shuriken Expertise and 10k stars.

Other than that, I like the intend behind the planning on this prestige tree. But since it is a bard tree, it should have at least some synergy with songs, and some exclusive songs of its own.

We’re hoping to find time to improve Warchanter and Spellsinger as well, although those improvements are likely more limited in scope, and those changes may end up delayed beyond the launch of Update 22.

It is crucial to properly balance the three bard trees in the same vein you balanced the three divine epic destinies before releasing Divine Crusader. Personally, I don't mind pushing out the Swashbuckler to U22 patch 1 (or even U23!) if that means we will get a rebalance (not recreating from scratch) on Spellsinger and Warchanter.

Since this is not the focus on this feedback threat, I will only mention the following on the other trees rebalance: Make many songs an "add up" to the bard's primary songs. Only keep as "new" songs the ones at tier 5, or granted by core enhancements. Otherwise, make them add up to:

• Inspire Courage (Long cooldown, long singing time, all allies) should add the benefits of: Ironskin Chant, Spellsong Trance
• Fascinate (medium cooldown, long singing time, all enemies) should also add the benefits of: Enthrallment
• Inspire Greatness (given at Bard 9) should also add the benefit of: Inspire Recklessness, Song of Arcane Might (and it becomes a requirement for those songs)
• Inspire Heroics (given at Bard 15) should also add the benefit of: Sustaining Song, Spellsong Vigor (and it becomes a requirement for those song)

There are more stuff that need to be rebalanced, but I think the songs being add-ons are a huge benefit, so that we don't have to sing a dozen songs at the start of each quest, or mid-fight because that is the only time a fast group is bundled together. Allow us to sing less songs for the same benefits.

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Range
    Light Pick: +1 Range
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX. While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Swift Strikes should also add free Weapon Finesse. Yes, this might combo with ranger or rogue to save a feat, but would that be a real problem? And since it is a bard tree, I would add at least 0.5 sonic/positive spellpower per point on tree (1 would be better, but Spellsinger is the casting tree and provides that on Universal...)

Swashbuckling should add dex or cha to damage with finesse/throw weapons while under the stance. No, not "instead of strength". It would be two atributes to damage. You will be using a single small weapon instead of TWF or THF. Any bonus they can get to damage is a must, and since bards can't multiclass with paladin for godlike saves, a benefit for charisma investment is good.

Also, did I got it right that every weapon will become 18-20/x3 by level three? (Except by light pick - 19-20/x4 - and throwing axe/hammer - 18-20/x4)

The bonus to enhancement value on weapons is another Celestia-breaking stuff, if it works like Battle Engineer or Warpriest. Yay?

Uncanny Dodge is decent, but not great. I would think about adding a fast-singing, long cooldown song that would grant the party uncanny dodge benefits (+25% dodge, +4 reflex) for a shorter time (5-10 seconds instead of 30). Maybe, for balancing reasons, it would spend a bard song AND an uncanny dodge use from you. So, if you are running solo, you would be better just using the UD, but in a group, it would benefit the whole party, and be a better group benefit.

Panache need another passive benefit. For a level 12 core, it lacks that "punch" that incentives you to push all the way to bard 12 on a multiclass. I have no idea what would fit here, but I have ideas: A Reign-like ability (fast casting song, gives you some sonic damage on hit), an Haste song (non-dispellable, benefits from song-extension feats/enhancements, potentially longer duration than a max-caster level bard with Extend), Haste/Damage boost (That can be activated at the same time as DS Boost), or push "Evasion on Stance" back here (Rangers get Evasion at 9. You can switch the capstone to be Improved Evasion).

Roll with the Punches is good enough. Extra dodge cap is always good incentive, and people underestimate Slippery Mind.

I would raise the benefits from the stance at the capstone. From a two level splash you can get evasion and more than an extra +1 damage if you go Rogue (At least +1d6 damage from sneak attacks, easy to bluff/deception in, trap skills, evasion, haste boost, and subtetly). Think at least 5% doublestrike and +5 damage (or +3 Inspire Courage bonus to hit/damage).

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
   
   
3. Multiselector: Insults
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

On your Toes and Limber Up are okay-ish. Decent Tier 1 stuff.

Blow by Blow is... strange. I'm not a fan of attacks that only give higher crit threat CHANCE. The sonic damage may be helpful, but then we must compare with another free attack that also deal sonic damage: Anvil of Thunder, on LD. It gives out 100 damage at level 20 (potentially), and some special effects on crit/vorpal. That being the measuring stick (and Anvil is a really weakish ability), I would say that extra damage should be at least 1d10 or 2d4 damage per character level. While spellpower applies to it, it have no extra goodness on it, only damage. And it will be competing on rotation with other useful abilities, like Momentum Swing.

Insults should be an aura-thing: It have a duration (says, 30 seconds, with 1 minute cooldown), mobs on the area are debuffed as long as the bard keep the aura up. That, or it should scale up based on an atribute. Penalty equal the bard's charisma modifier could be good.

Tavern Shanties is average for that tier, but I comment on it because I think, for naming reasons, it should add up +1/2/3 Haggle and Perform as well.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)
5. Multiselector:
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

En pointe is absolutely useless. While basically everything you hold is on a x3 multiplier, making this attack still land for at least double damage, the spell point cost already limit it a lot. And if you want to be a melee DPS, keeping high crit multipliers is a must. I'm not in the mentality that only high-top DPS is worthy of a party slot, but this attack have almost nothing going for it.

But I think this ability can be salvaged if you make it adrenaline-like: It is not an attack, but a 6-seconds buff that expires on hit. This way, you can set up a guaranteed crit, and use another attack with better benefits. While still subpar, I can see some people taking it for when they are not running in FotW.

Deflect Arrows is ok.

Aqua Vitae is too weak. 4 ticks of 1d6 healing with no scaling will mean this will stop being useful around level 4, and never taken again. This is also amplified by the problem that this tree give you zero positive spellpower. Also, it have a "magical" feeling that hits better with Spellsinger than Swashbuckler. Just scrap this ability. We have Sustaining Song that heals for more time, and cure spells for self and party cast almost at will.

Sword Dance is too powerful. Ok, maybe not for epics, but as a tier 2 ability? Definitely too powerful. Considering this tree is giving out a ton of dodge, bards can cast Displacement, and at low-mid levels even light armor wearers can get a great AC value to be missed constantly, and you have a broken ability at heroics.

Also, this kind of ability sounds to me something more tank-based than panache-based. Add it to Stalwart/Sacred Defender, and I don't mid the heroic overpoweredness. On a offensive tree? I mind. A lot.

Action Boosts are ok, but I would merge Doublestrike/doubleshot boosts in one. Also retcon the Nature Warrior version to the same. This is one ability that I don't see the reason to split it between melee or ranged.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
2. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
   3. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
   4. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus.
5. CHA/DEX

Elegant Footwork is good in theory, but it have the same problems of Sword Dance: It is a tanking ability in a non-tank tree. If the chance to proc is already small, and it requires a miss (a rarity as your level raises), the cooldown is unnecessary. Just keep the chance small (2% or less), and if we got a chain of procs, lucky us.

Dashing Scoundrel, Skirmisher, and Arcane Marauder are good basic styles. But for Cannoneer, instead of requiring Runearm Proficiency, I would grant it. So, that way you would have two ways to get runearm proficiency: Either 2 artificer levels for free feat, or 3 bard levels and some AP. The only corollary is that if firing a runearm with zero artificer levels somehow bug out the runearm damage (that is based on artificer levels).

Resonant Arms is decent, specially with the improved critical range of our weapons that also arrives by level three.

Fast Movement would be ineresting if it is pushed from the monk tables. But instead, what if you pulled Sprint Boost from Warchanter? Warchanter is a more damage-focused tree than Swashbuckler (in theory), so substitute it there for Haste or Damage boost, and give Swashs the sprint boost.

For the Stat Bonus, if you don't give this tree the ability to use Dex or Cha to damage (see my comment on cores), I would add Str on the selector as well.

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
5. CHA/DEX

On the Mark I suppose to be a consolidation of Critical Accuracy and Critical Damage. If that is the case, it is basically a standard deal for every tree that have both of then, with crit acc as a requisite for crit damage (Tempest, Kensai, Assassin, EK, etc).

Slap in the Face is a slap in the face. 1 second stun is a sad joke, and shouldn't even be considered as a tier 1 "joke weapon" thing. It can be reworked (the "can't cast spells" part is decent), since a slap in the face is hilarious in many ways: It can be an instant intimidate attack, or a quick morale bonus to everyone around because of such awesomeness.

Low Blow is good.

Loud & Clear is underpowered. Raise it to at least 25 spellpower, since it is only one tier, and requires a specific off-hand weapon. 10 might be okay if the tree starts giving up spellpower per point spend on it. Giving out an extra caster level OR spell penetration bonus would be welcome as well.

Music Box is basically a +3.5 damage per hit enhancement. Not bad, but could do better. Maybe allowing your bard levels to count as artificer levels for the purpose of runearm damage (IE.: An artificer 2/bard 5 would make runearm charge attacks as if she were a level 7 artificer)?

Battering Barrage should be on hit, not on crit.

Wind at my Back: I don't like it. Maybe extra throwing speed should be better. Remember that bards can't multiclass into monk for 10k stars, and Swashbuckling don't give extended threat range with shurikens. I'm okay with a single thrower-focused enhancement in the tree. Make it an amazing ability for those that want to make a thrower build: 15/30/45% extra thrower speed might do the trick (Stacking with Shiradi throwing speed, of course).

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Thread the Needle is an interesting enhancement that basically, in theory, allow you to skip Power Attack and favor Precision. But there is a single problem in avoiding Power Attack: Overwhelming Critical is a very powerful melee feat, and have Power Attack (among others) as a prerequisite.

Also, if you run in Legendary Dreadnought (considered one of the two top melee EDs in game), you need to run with Power Attack on to use two great abilities of the ED: Momentum Swing and Lay Waste.

Power Attack just have too many things linking to it. The enhancement itself is good. The problem is how important PA is (Like Toughness were before the enhancement pass).

Exploit Weakness is an amazing ability, and deserve its tier 5 status.

==========================

I hope this helps.

[BoBoDaClown]

Are we going to get to see proposed warchanter and spellsinger changes before they occur? Hopefully we get plenty of chance to give you ideas, because I know plenty of experienced bards have some great ideas on what could work.

It is difficult to comment on this PRE as we are given it in isolation, not knowing what the other bard trees will lool like and not having any clue on the single handed feats.

Some comments:

1) Bards need cha to att/damage. It would give them a boost, it is thematic and not OP in any way. This PRE could probably also do with a dex\finesse line, at least then some bards might have the reflex to use that capstone.

2) Evasion at 20 means it is for epic levels, yet bards lack epic elite saves. Allow for some significant passive and song based reflex gains.

3) As a dps tree, this will probably invalidate the WC tree for dps orientated bards, which was a horrific tree anyway. Maybe WC will get huge boosts to its buffing potential.

3) Is single-handed going to be almost solely for swashbucklers? TWF and THF work with most classes, but it seems a new combat style is being created solely for this class.

4) A dps bard wants PA Cleave G Cleave O Critical, which seem to contradict a swashbuckler's focus on a defensive stance and precision. Bards don't have feats to burn. Maybe this is an opportunity to create an alternative route to getting OC.

5) Will everything stack? A weakness of WC is that things don't stack. Will the crit enhancements stack with weapons and destinies with increased crit range or modifiers. Will skaldic rage be able to be used in stance?

6) Needs songs. Even if it is less buff focussed than other bard trees, it is still a bard.

[bbqzor]

Thanks for the response. Heres some follow up comments.

First Core abilities are generally not that powerful. 1% Dodge for 1 AP is fairly strong for a level 1 Bard on Korthos.

Well, powerful (in a relative sense) it might be on korthos, but it is what it is: plain and ultimately forgettable. The other bard cores offer spell power for the tree (makes you want to invest in tree), and a unique rage effect (at least its a unique thing). I can understand not wanting it to add a ton of things for 1 point off a 1 level dip with no other investment, but being missed one more time every 100 swings doesnt grab anyone either.

Perhaps 1% dodge, and +3prr when using a buckler? It encourages bards to "swashbuckle up" immediately, with class/tree appropriate equipment, and is at least something "unique" in the sense that its only really useful or logical here. (3prr was chosen because its the same amount as the shield feat, without being enough to actually warrant an action point elsewhere which tends to be +5prr, and without adding doublestrike which would then tie the feat). Also gives any swashbuckler a reason to carry a buckler, even if only as a swap. I mean, buckler is in the name of the class, might as well work on that right from the get go ya? And, it makes you feel like the core is more than just another one of those 1/2/3, 1%/2%/3% dodge things. Which is a good feeling.

Fair point. Increasing the Max Dex bonus is something we'll discuss internally.

Thank you. I am glad it makes sense, and I hope it is adjusted. It would be nice to see bards swashbuckling in light armor, as befits the image and pnp history, rather than cloth because better maths.

We'd love to hear what you (and others) think the SP cost and cooldown should be. As of now, it is planned to go off almost instantaneously, have about the same AOE as Soundburst, have no max number of targets and would affect Bosses. You hit the button, every nearby enemy's saves go down. There are currently three planned ranks of each, with each rank planned to reduce cooldown and SP cost (wherever that ends up landing).

Two thoughts. One, as I mentioned, if its worse than hypno I feel it really missed the boat, so it should wind up at 10sp, 2s cd in the end (or 5sp and 3s cd, cheaper but less spammable is fine too, and in fact may be preferable by players and devs as its less cost to us, and less risk of overkill to you). Longer than 3s cd starts to get pretty long by SLA standards (typically only lv3 spells get that slow, and this isnt a fireball SLA or something), and anything over 10 sp and its just cheaper to use some other method to get the job done.

Second, rather than each tier reducing the cost, it might be nice for each tier to add a save. So like it starts with -Will, because bards and hypno and theme etc, then maybe -Ref because swashbucklers are faster than you or something, and then -Fort. So in the end it hits them all. Otherwise I dont think youll see many people taking it... if its not better than Hypno, people will Hypno, and if its just one save not many bard abilities run off anything but Will (or possibly fort with sound burst now).

One final thought is, bards having a -3 debuff is basically the same as bards lv6 spells being heightened to 9th, so its not like theyre gaining huge ground here, more like its shoring up a weak spot. So I wouldnt value it too highly from a design standpoint. Theyre paying AP to get to where other people start off, and then paying SP to use it the same as if heighten were costing more (bit less mana, but its only on periodically due to cooldown). So its probably okay for it to seem a bit good.

This ability is meant to be a viable, non-magical emergency self-heal. From feedback so far, it sounds like the healing is too low at the very least. We'd love to know where you all think the healing should be, or what changes would make this ability interesting/"worth taking". Do bear in mind, it can be taken at level two.

Non-magical isnt an issue. If theres ever some "must heal in anti magic" situation, every other build in the game would be screwed, and with a "long cooldown" even swashbucklers wouldnt last long. That aspect of it has little to no value as a player. As far as it being level 2, its a level-based ability (in bard levels even), so there is no reason to be worried about the scaling (ie, when you get it is of little consequence since it depends on your bard level to function, meaning it should self police itself via scaling).

If I was inventing numbers from thin air, Id go with at least 3 temp hp per bard level, and then 6 hp per bard level healed instantly, with a 30s cd and 30s duration on the temp hp. Why? Same temp hp value you guys used, equal to half the bards hit dice. Then, they heal their hit dice sans con/gear/etc bonuses... just you heal your bard portion of hp. 30s cd because it should be in "action boost" terms in scale, in that you want to use it to boost sometimes but shouldnt be spamming it 24/7... but 20s is probably too fast for a heal so this way you can use it either before or after other boosts with the cooldown "book ending" those situations.

As for cost? Well... temp hp before a fight or healing after a fight, shouldnt be more than just plain healing or other comparable things... maybe 10-15 mana? More and its better to heal, less and its probably too good. Caps out at 60 temp hp and 120 healing for 10 mana on a pure bard... pretty close to mini-self-only-cocoon. And starts at 6 temp hp and 12 healing for 10 sp, pretty close to a self only cure light at level 2, trading the early ap spent for maybe saving a spell slot when you have few to use. Seems fair to me. But you guys tend to view healing as some crazy valuable thing so may want higher numbers. Going to 15 mana at those values works, but beyond that it just gets useless again. As long as it just uses bard level, not character level, I dont see any reason why those numbers wont work. Plus, having it be faster cooldown helps shore up the lack of mitigation the class has. Spending mana on temp hp is like having prr, without having prr, and the mana cost means swashbucklers choosing to stay in the thick of things are slowly wearing down, again fitting stylistically. And the patch up heal means they can go fight to fight somewhat quickly, again a fitting style.

We've been playing with the numbers on this one, trying to find a balance where this ability goes off often but not constantly. There is no save to the knockdown. Again, we'd love to hear where you think the chances and cooldowns should be.

Well, 30% is surely too high, you wouldnt want it going off like Arcane Encumbrance, and 5% is certainly too low because Air Guard is just too rare to not be lame. Maybe 15-20%? That 12s cd is a pain... If you think in action boost terms (most groups of mobs die within an action boost, sometimes 2 groups of mobs, so thats kind of like "one fights" worth of time in a sense)... you want this ability to go off at least once a "combat". If a combat is 20s, and this has cd for 12s, it has to fire in the first 8s at worst, otherwise who cares its too rare to matter (and especially so on a class so cc heavy, thats one area bards arent hurting). Thats 12.5%, if you get swung at once a second. Frankly you really shouldnt be getting attacked that often on a swashbuckler, so Id dare say aim high at 20%. Over a 20s window, it might fire 5s in, cd for 12s, then maybe if youre lucky fire again on the last mob or something. Which if it does, the cd carry over into the next fight still leaves room to see it fire again (like maybe fight starts, theres 6s on cd, it fires another 5s in, cd for the rest of that fight, etc). In my mind its all about pacing, anything under 20% starts to just get unusable with the 12s cd (and as mentioned, I think at 30% it starts to risk being essentially "always on").

The Dashing Scoundrel (Empty Hand) option in Swashbuckling Styles is intentionally stronger than the other ones. To use it, you're giving up having any other item in your off hand, ever. The comparison is 7% Dodge plus whatever your Buckler's giving you.

This is what I meant when I said, the feat line is going to really matter. Youre not just giving up whats in that hand... youre giving up 80% off hand attacks from no TWF, or 1.5 str/patk and glances from no 2HD. Those considerations are **FEAT** considerations. Not enhancement level ones. No one is taking the empty hand one without the empty hand feats. Likewise, no one is taking the empty hand feats and then shoving a buckler in there to use this enhancement. Both of those situations would be a failure on the users end, if you get what Im saying =p.

The *Enhancement* should be balanced relative to itself. It just should. The **FEATS** are a whole 'nother can of worms that I have no idea why you decided to pursue, precisely because of this exact and huge balance issue. But be clear and make no mistake, that balancing act is on the FEATS shoulders, not the enhancements. The comparison shouldnt be buckler + 7% dodge vs no itemization, it should be buckler + 7% dodge vs other offhand items for one build, and this enhancement + new feat line vs no itemization for a different build. The feats are the thing determining no item goes there, without those nothing you put here is going to outclass 2wf.

So I think the enhancements should be a bit more even. Hope I typed that in a way that makes sense. I think the 7% dodge is critical to help in getting to that tree specific 30% cap, but I also think it should add some prr or something to help with when you do get hit. The other one does more attacks and more damage, this one should be less attacks hit you and hit you for less. Its okay if its a bit less (since its also more accessible being less likely to require a feat investment to synergize with), but also bear in mind the buckler version caps. Dodge has a hard cap, PRR a soft cap. Doublestrike and +Dmg are basically uncapped. Dont be afraid to make the buckler one good too, remember anyone can spend 2ap and use an orb here instead, and unlike bucklers theres a ton of good orbs out there right now. Bucklers, we are stuck waiting on future itemization chances (which are hit and miss, by track record). The class has no other PRR anywhere (except the core if you consider this posts suggestions) so adding a few points here wouldnt hurt.

The current iteration (when capped) is faster than Barbarians but a little slower than Monks. It stacks with Barbarian Movement Speed, and anything else that stacks with.

Then its better than expected (to my expectation at least) so great to hear. I think barbs are +10%? If this starts at say 5% and goes up to 20%, great. Any more and it risks overkill (you dont want a bard-barian passing monks speed wise), any less and its probably too small to start with (needs to be at least 5% on the first bump). But it sounds like its in the right spot more or less, so great.

On a technical note, this can't be three ranks as the Swashbuckling Style below it has only one rank. We'll discuss internally whether this (and other abilities in the tree) should be giving more Spell Power.

This line here:

Slap in the Face: WhileSwashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown.

Implied to me it was multi-rank (the 3/6/9 portion), but understood. Frankly I think all those abilities (which I parsed out as 3 tier) work better that way. Perhaps it can be severed from the ability below to allow that? I think as single tiers, they will all suffer from either being too gimmicky or too underpowered. A 1/2/3 investment lets them be somewhat weak off a single point, but useful to someone who invests, which is good for abilities of that nature, at that point in the tree, given that only one is selectable at any one time. Regardless, more sonic power would be appreciated (or more spell power in general, but I think limiting it to sonic is fine). Thanks.

You should be able to use Swashbuckling and Precision simultaneously.

Yes, that was clear, I just hope it works correctly with that pair, as well as with all other combinations. There are quite a few stances in game now... just making sure someone as loaded them all and verified it.

Thanks! There was a lot of good feedback in this post, both positive and negative.

You're welcome. Hopefully this is useful as well. Cheers and thanks.

[Steelstar]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

[Qhualor]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

stand strong. single weapon fighting is unique and I think it should stay as originally described.

[rest]

Thanks! There was a lot of good feedback in this post, both positive and negative.

Varg and I have been keeping up on the thread so far, thank you for the feedback.

There's a lot of good feedback in a bunch of posts. I hope you're not limiting your reading to only those posts that are concise and eloquent - not everyone is great at writing.

[bbqzor]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.
This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

Well, they are going to compete against 2HD using a daxe or bsword then for shield users (3 feats for glancing blows with a shield, vs 3 feats for ??? with the new ones). Or, alternatively, benefit casters using 1hd+orb, rather than 2x1hd or staves. But no ones going to leave an empty hand unless required to. Mudflation has gotten to the point where thats just not mechanically viable.

And that goes double for an enhancement. Spending AP (one of the most valuable character resources, currently) to lose an item slot is just too pricey without some crazy OP benefit. Getting 7% doublestrike and +5 damage is pretty close to using Epic Skrimishers bracers (8% doublestirke and +9 dex, which is almost +5 dmg for dex-based guys... same ballpark anyhow) is kind of like paying 2 AP to wind up in the same place.

It would have to be even better than it currently is, and then more better enough beyond that to also be worth giving up the other offhand options the swashbuckler tree itself offers, *and* the utility of being able to swap held items around (side note, also thats the best/easiest/only slot to get spellpower past ~90 for many things, so this further compounds that spell power issue mentioned before). Frankly, that just gets to a point where it has to be so huge you start needing to build around it and at that point I think it goes too far the other way.

I just dont see a good way to reconcile the situation, no passive 100% obtainable, 100% available, 100% on ability which costs AP, is going to compare to the utility of having all those items available in the slot which dont cost AP, without being too good relative to its AP cost or even other enhancements. My suggestion at this point is to avoid balancing that enhancement (the empty hand one) further at all until we know exactly what you opt to do with the feats, because its effectively too high a price to pay otherwise.

I still think the buckler one should be 7% dodge and +5 PRR (at 20). It balances better against the other options, the shield feats, and the classes lack of PRR. But the empty hand one Id have to suggest even more power and thats just not practical to actually go live with. IMHO anyhow. Cheers.

[peng]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

How about something like:

(Improved/greater) single weapon fighting - If you have a 1-handed weapon in your main hand and no weapon in your off-hand, gain 8% double strike, 4% fortification bypass, and 2% dodge. If your off-hand is empty (no shield, orb, runearm, or weapon), double these bonuses.

[Delacroix21]

I'm a huge fan of this tree, but it needs a boost. I'm also a huge fan of making SWF its own style.

Feat	Type	Description	Prerequisites
Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 11, Dex 11
Improved Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain an additional 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 13, Dex 13, BAB +6
Greater Single Weapon Fighting	Passive	When wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand, you gain an additional 3% doublestrike and 10% armor-piercing.	Str 15, Dex 15, BAB +11
Single Weapon Defense	Passive	Grants a +1 AC bonus and 2% Dodge bonus when wielding a one-handed weapon in your main-hand and no weapon in your off-hand.	SWF

You want to show some math how 9% double strike is even REMOTELY close to 80% offhand strikes? Druids are the finest examples of 1 handed weapon users in the game, and are still considered somewhat weak compared to other meele.

Lets see what druids get=
18% double strike from natural fighting
30% attack speed boost thats always on (this is huge)

that is BASE for druids, and this is still considered WEAK. The 9% double strike you suggest is insanely weak.

[Nandos]

If you have the time, add an additional Tier 5 ability. How about a really flashy looking attack? In addition to extra damage, have it do something cool based on the Bard's perform skill or charisma modifier.

[Zirun]

I see a lot of people in here missing the forest for the trees.

Common complaint #1: Resonant Arms does too little damage! Aqua Vitae does too little healing! etc.

What you're missing: Look at the tiers these enhancements are in. Aqua Vitae is tier 2, Resonant Arms is tier 3. That means those are available at levels 2 and 3 respectively. Sure, 6d6 damage isn't particularly great when you're level 28, but it's ridiculous when you're level 3!

People said the same thing about Reaving Roar, back when the new enhancements came out. Pre-enhancement pass, it had a pretty high minimum level (I think it was 8?), and at the level you got it, it would basically one-shot any group of mobs upon killing one of them. They couldn't keep the old minimum level in the new enhancement trees, so they reduced the ML to 3 and reduced the damage to compensate for the new low ML. But people complained, because apparently 5d6 AoE sonic damage for free upon killing an enemy at level 3 is just sooooooooo bad.

Not every enhancement needs to be end-game viable. Plenty of enhancements give pretty massive bonuses early on, when they first become available, and then slowly taper off due to lack of scaling.

Common complaint #2: Boosting throwing damage in the Swashbuckler tree is pointless, since it won't reach the power of a Shuriken Monk build.

What you're missing: You're missing two things, actually. The first is that not everything has to be as strong as everything else. You're comparing a heavily support-based class to a heavily overpowered class. Obviously it's not going to do as much damage. And you don't want it to do as much damage, either, because then Bards would be completely overpowered.

The second thing you're missing is that characters can do more than one thing. You complain that Swashbuckler doesn't provide enough damage to be viable. Well, whoever said the goal was to make throwing weapons a viable primary damage source? Instead, this provides Swashbucklers with a useable source of ranged damage, which has its uses even when the damage is abysmal. Other than Swashbuckler, the Bard trees don't provide very much damage for any sort of ranged combat compared to something like Arcane Archer or Mechanic.

----

Personally, I like the idea behind the tree. I'll probably invest heavily into it when I eventually get to doing a Bard life. Could obviously use some work, of course... why go Bard 20 when you can splash 2 levels of Rogue to get pretty much exactly what the capstone offers and more?