Swashbuckler

[LuKaSu]

Well done. I mean that and rarely say it here. Nice job to whoever put this draft together and Vargouille deserves a promotion for posting it on the forums. Communication is improving with some of the development team - nice to see some of that red tape getting cut away.

I wanted to see evasion as a possible capstone and lo and behold there it is!

I cannot wait to resurrect my old Bard and try out the Swashbuckler.

If you don't give this tree -- or one of the other bard trees -- a means to massively boost reflex saves, the Evasion capstone is not going to be of any use whatsoever.

It doesn't apply until level 20 anyway, so it's not worth talking about Evasion in the context of anything less than epic level traps and spells.

This tree has no enhancements to boost reflex saves. The bard's innate reflex save progression is good, but that's not even close to enough by itself. Unlike other classes, a bard can't splash paladin or monk to improve saves (of course, you'd lose the capstone by splashing anyway).

Unless you're planning on a drastic reduction in the DC checks we have to make in high level epics in the very near future, this Evasion is going to be virtually useless.

I would suggest some combination of the following:

+2 Reflex saves per Swashbuckler core (total of +12, which is probably still not enough)

New bard song offering major save boost (perform skill / 4, maybe?) with a reasonable duration

Divine grace equivalent (cha modifier to saves)

Purchasable enhancements iin the tree with reflex save boosts

Every point spent in the tree adds .5 reflex saves, rounded down (like how spellpower works in a lot of trees)

Another option is to make the Limber up tier three much stronger. While tumbling, gain bard level / 3 saves (reflex saves and saves against traps)

Are you going to have new one-handed attack animations, so your character looks like they are fencing (ex. a lunge)? Also, are you planning on musketeer outfits and hats, etc, that one can buy in the store? If so, I will be TRing my main into a swashbuckler

Deflect Arrows
I'm not sure how this is "swashbuckler" or fencer like. I would look to replace this with something else. If you want this to be a defensive ability, how about adding more dodge, or perhaps more of a signature fencing move such as "Parry"? Parry could be simply a passive bonus to AC.

Parry & Riposte
This is a very common fencing move. When someone makes an attack on you, you parry their attack and make an immediate counterattack. Which could be translated in game terms to, "when an enemy you are facing makes an attack on you and misses (for any reason), you are granted a free & immediate attack roll on them. Or more simply you could make this a doublestrike bonus."

Insightful Strike (Ex): At 3rd level, a swashbuckler becomes able to place her finesse attacks where they deal greater damage. She applies her Intelligence bonus (if any) as a bonus on damage rolls (in addition to any Strength bonus she may have) with any light weapon, as well as any other weapon that can be used with Weapon Finesse, such as a rapier, whip, or spiked chain. Targets immune to sneak attacks or critical hits are immune to the swashbuckler's insightful strike. A swashbuckler cannot use this ability when wearing medium or heavy armor or when carrying a medium or heavy load.

Slippery Mind (Ex): When a swashbuckler reaches 17th level, her mind becomes more difficult to control. If the swashbuckler fails her save against an enchantment spell or effect, she can attempt the save again 1 round later at the same DC (assuming she is still alive). She gets only this one extra chance to succeed at a certain saving throw.

These.
1) I think the devs have done a great job here.
2) I think it should have some form of Dex or CHA to damage. (by the way, rangers with Scimitar treated as light weapons. Now scimitars are swashbuckleable weapons too?)
3) Wind at your back add enhancement bonus to swashbuckle weapons too, not just throwers.
4) Maybe a swashbuckling doublestrike bonus that scales with Dex? Maybe as the level 18 or also part of capstone.
5) Maybe provide runearm proficiency feat to cannoneer. Giving half bard levels as the artificer levers for runearm damage purposes.

[Cardtrick]

Another option is to make the Limber up tier three much stronger. While tumbling, gain bard level / 3 saves (reflex saves and saves against traps)

Oh, man, no. Just no. Please don't toss this out there as though it's in any way a reasonable solution.

I wouldn't normally be so vehement, but this has the uncomfortable feeling of an idea that might actually be used and it would be terrible. There's been an inexplicable increase in the amount of enhancements and epic destiny abilities related to tumbling recently, and they're all useless. I don't know who is responsible for this, or what they're thinking, but it's clear that someone wants us to be tumbling more.

But honestly, who tumbles much? Every moment you're tumbling is a moment you're not doing something far more useful. There's too much lag -- both actual server lag and input/control lag -- to make tumbling actively a viable strategy in combat. Evasion that is reliant on tumbling is completely useless. Especially since most of the things you want to use evasion for aren't things you can reasonably expect to have enough warning of to make tumbling useful.

[Silken-Akira]

Some ideas for tht throw in some kind of feat here:
Spring attack. I do find it very much in tune with the theme of this tree

The maybe's: feint and the disarm

More on feat is why not tinker up a nice feat that you can get when you have precision + improved critical (or something similar) this makes precision a lot more attractive and not only in here.

And please don't forget to get cha to hit/damage in this tree

[OverlordOfRats]

Make the feats so you can use anything but a weapon in your second hand even tower shields. This will make the feats useable by more builds.

Make the restrictions to take it low. Examples: minimum STR-11 / STR-13 BAB+4 / STR-13 BAB+8. This would allow non STR based characters to be able to take it with a moderate investment in STR without having to sacrifice thier main stat(s). The low BAB is so +.75 BAB classes can still take them at levels 6 and 11 and +.5 BAB classes can still get them.

Do not let them be usable by dwarven axes and bastard swords. They have THF feats to use.


As far as numbers go, I am not real sure. My thought was along the lines of improved damage + something else.

SHF - +.5[W] +3% double strike
ISHF - +.5[W] +3% double strike (stacks with SHF)
GSFH - +5[W] +3% double strike (stacks with SHF & ISHF)
PSFH - +1[W] +3% double strike (stacks with SHF & ISHF & GSHF)

Total for all four +2.5[W] +12% double strike.

From what I've read the main problem with SHF right now is the lack of damage. So increasing the damage should be most important and then add on something else useful. If someone who is good with the damage numbers could respond if this would be even close to THF & TWF, I would appreciate it.




About the tree, needs CHR to hit and damage, add You use either your STR, DEX, or CHR to determine your hit and damage to Core 2(preferred) or 3. Add the Precision feat to Core 4.

The first allows bards to to pick which stat they want to be their main and allow them to use that stat for hit and damage at level 3(preferred) or 6. The second allows bards of at least level 12 to use the tier five ability without having to use a feat on a feat starved class. If Bard 12/Monk 6/Paladin 2 will become the new OP class, move it to Core 5 which makes it 18 levels of Bard

[InsanityIsYourFriend]

If Bard 12/Monk 6/Paladin 2 will become the new OP class, move it to Core 5 which makes it 18 levels of Bard

I am pretty sure that a 12/6/2 bard/monk/pally will NEVER become an OP class

[unbongwah]

Deflect Arrows
I'm not sure how this is "swashbuckler" or fencer like.

Are you kidding?

Parry & Riposte
This is a very common fencing move. When someone makes an attack on you, you parry their attack and make an immediate counterattack. Which could be translated in game terms to, "when an enemy you are facing makes an attack on you and misses (for any reason), you are granted a free & immediate attack roll on them. Or more simply you could make this a doublestrike bonus."

I think I'd like to see them introduced as new combat mechanics: parrying is a % chance of deflecting an incoming melee blow like Deflect Arrows; while Riposte is either a % chance of making an immediate counterattack or a temporary doublestrike bonus after being attacked.

[willox2112]

I have a shuriken throwing build going on right now and I love it. When I read that this tree would have a focus on throwing weapons I got really excited... having a character throwing different weapons (axes, hammers, daggers, etc) seems like a great idea!

At first glance the tree looked amazing; now when you look closely and think about it you can see the enormous gap between whats capable for a swashbuckler and a current shuriken build.

Here's some of what I think it needs.

- A core 1 or 3 enhancement to allow Dex or Cha for to-hit/damage with thrown weapons

- A core 3 or 6 enhancement for multiple shots based on your Dex or Cha (like Shuriken expertise or Core 2 of Ninja tree)

- A lot more of doubleshot. Think about it.. isn't it possible for a professional to throw with both hands, really quick?

Daggers, Axes and hammers do not benefit from 10k stars or Manyshot. If you really want to give a throwing build a chance give it lots of doubleshot. Right now the capstone for Arcane Archer gives 20% doubleshot, when doubleshot is useless for 1 minute in between manyshots (or 10k stars). Why not give something similar to throwers? It's not like they'll break the game. You wont see four fury thrown dagger hitting for 10,000 hp's EACH.

This is just a beginning but I think it would put thrown builds close shuriken builds... and bards cant be monks so no 10k star builds of the month anyways, right? Right?

I really would love this to work, but it needs some more thought behind it. Just look at the capstone. Yeah! we get evasion! with tiny reflex saves.
'Phenomenal cosmic powers, with an itty bitty living space'.

I won't repeat what others have commented, but I agree that this tree is not good enough.

[Vargouille]

Thanks for the continuing feedback. We're still looking into possible changes, etc.!

Also, are you planning on musketeer outfits and hats, etc, that one can buy in the store? If so, I will be TRing my main into a swashbuckler

There's been some thoughts here about making a cosmetic Swashbuckler outfit.

Ok, Ok, lots of opinions, its Friday, throw it up on a lam build and let us beat it up.

That will eventually happen, but we have to make it first!

And pretty much junk beyond Korthos.

Compare that to the first core ability on almost ANY other tree: they either have a couple of bonuses, a minor feat or something equivalent, or the "each AP spent in tree gets +x" mechanic. They are all either a better instant boost or something that potentially scales with the toon level.

1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

[Munkenmo]

1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

Either you're being rude or you're not understanding what we're saying, either way it's not a good look.

A core ability (eg eldritch knight) that gives you say Cleave, and .5 USP per spell power per point spent in the tree is a lot better than +1 dodge.

Wanna know how to make this tree worthwhile?

Every point spent in this tree increases your attack speed when Swashbuckling by 0.5% (not stacking with haste)

Or every core ability in this tree gives you a stacking +2% attack speed increase.

[Delacroix21]

Thanks for the continuing feedback. We're still looking into possible changes, etc.!



There's been some thoughts here about making a cosmetic Swashbuckler outfit.



That will eventually happen, but we have to make it first!



1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

Varg, we cant fully evaluate this tree until you give us details on SWF feats. Basically you are asking for feedback on new fighting style you have told us nothing about, its very silly.

[Delacroix21]

The SWF feats need to at least match the 80% offhand strike of TWF. It seems the tree adds a lot of double strike, so i recommend the feats add attack speed instead:

SWF increase attack speed by 15%
ISWF increase attack speed by 30%
GSWF increase attack speed by 50%

[Delacroix21]

I know we dont have numbers yet on SWF feats, but i have a strong feeling the numbers will give with the feats plus this pre will be less dps then TWF and THF with no pre .

Also, how will SWF feats effect throwing? Or will they at all? Any chance TWF feats can effect throwing as well? Perhaps in a slightly different way?

[rest]

I hope SWF is +500% doublestrike and 12,000% dodge. Then maybe, MAYBE, this tree might be worth something.

Again I say thanks for wasting time developing a bard tree that no one asked for instead of working on all the rest of the missing PrEs that people have been clamoring for since the enhancement pass.

[Delacroix21]

How about:

SWF increase attack speed by 15% bypass 15% fort, and adds a 20% chance to throw an extra
ISWF increase attack speed by 30%, bypass 30% fort, adds a 40% chance to double throw
GSWF increase attack speed by 45%, bypass 45% fort, adds a 60% chance to double throw


Note that the doublethrow is. NOT doubleshot. Its a seperate mechanic like shuriken expertise that stacks with doubleshot. I chose not to base it off dex because double throw based off dex really only makes throwing viable when your dex is well over 50, which is close to being at cap.

[Tentaki]

Either you're being rude or you're not understanding what we're saying, either way it's not a good look.

A core ability (eg eldritch knight) that gives you say Cleave, and .5 USP per spell power per point spent in the tree is a lot better than +1 dodge.

Wanna know how to make this tree worthwhile?

Every point spent in this tree increases your attack speed when Swashbuckling by 0.5% (not stacking with haste)

Or every core ability in this tree gives you a stacking +2% attack speed increase.

A counterpoint would be that Cleave isn't very useful if you're playing a character that never goes into melee. If you're playing a wizard/sorcerer spellcaster, dumping only one point into the EK tree isn't all that useful if you don't make a further investment.

Dodge, however, is useful basically for every character that hasn't hit the dodge cap. If I'm playing a bard that hasn't hit that cap, I'm dumping a point into the first core of Swashbuckler in basically every bard build I make.

[bbqzor]

1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

I dont know about saying "at least"... it tends to be worth about exactly 1 AP. There are multiple cases where 1 AP = 1 Dodge. Those situations where its multiple AP to get 1 Dodge, generally you arent doing that because of the dodge. Ambidexterity is a good example. The 2nd rank is 2 AP for 1 Dodge, but no one buys it for that. Rather its a "sunk cost" on the way to getting +1 Damage at tier 3, or meeting pre-reqs like total points spent in the tree.

This is one of those cases where perceptions crack as rubber hits the road so to speak. Much like healing effects everywhere, you (as devs) are seeming to value Dodge much higher than us (as players) are. When considering aggregate defense, 1% dodge one way or the other is somewhat of a non-issue. A simple model of such a situation such as: AC check (95% hit, missed on a 1), Concealment check (80% hit, blur effect), Corporeality check (90% hit, ghostly effect), Dodge check (97% hit, dodge feat) means 66.3% (rounding up) of attacks go through, or about 2/3rds. Adding 10% dodge (so 13% total) changes that to 59.5%, or still about 2/3rds. To be meaningfully effective from there you need to start doing things like gaining 10% dodge, AND gaining AC, AND gaining PRR, etc. If you are trying to micromanage 1% dodge in the "defense process" you are missing the forest for the trees; and its certainly nothing worth spending 2+ AP over.

That said, this PRE is intended to offer meaningful dodge, and it delivers. With the tree boasting 15% dodge (when using a buckler, which as I mentioned before Im going to do until the feat details are released) and a raise of the cap to 30% (assuming the core Roll with the Punches armor/dex is fixed), its reasonable to expect the player to close the gap (a dodge 10% item, Inspire Heroics for 4%, and Haste spell) and youre there. Thats just good design, it provides a unique situation, and if you invest you can utilize it, and thats exactly the point really. Even without a buckler, its easy to make up the difference in feats, other enhancements, destinies, or other options. Its well constructed in that sense.

In the end, no ones saying 1% dodge for 1 AP is bad. We are just saying its not so exciting as to make people get amp'd up over the awesome factor. Clearly its not under-powered, its just underwhelming. I think people want to be excited about the C1 ability, since its a required buy in. Shrug, maybe some of that helps. Adding a little unique flash (3prr with a buckler or any of the other ideas in the thread) would help. Rather than paying a "tax" to open the tree, or buying something thats an identical offering elsewhere in the same tree (immediately at T1 even), I think people wanted something a little more flavorful.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

Yes, we know... but that first point continues to pay you every time you take something in the tree. Its fun and encourages you to maybe choose something a little mediocre because its helping in other ways. Its kind of the same as other options, but its fun. Like take Warpriest... the cores are +30 spell power, passively. Angel of Vengeance is +1/point, so +41 at the 6th core. Its the same ballpark but ones more fun. And if you wanted, you could just spend points in AoV without using the core, where as warpriest you must buy the core for it. Theyre just different. Thats kind of the thing with swashbuckler, that 1% dodge isnt different. Its also hard to "see" (as in, if you went from 21% dodge to 22% dodge, its hard to visually "feel" the difference over 100 swings), so its a less tangible reward than warpriests "smite" or warchanters "rage" etc. This one doesnt need a drastic change, but a little characterization would help. Thanks.

[FranOhmsford]

I hope SWF is +500% doublestrike and 12,000% dodge. Then maybe, MAYBE, this tree might be worth something.

Hyperbole!

Admit it...You'd accept a lot less!

Again I say thanks for wasting time developing a bard tree that no one asked for instead of working on all the rest of the missing PrEs that people have been clamoring for since the enhancement pass.

Wow...Miracles do happen - I find myself in full agreement.

/Signed!

[Cardtrick]

1 Dodge is worth at least 1 AP.

Here's a secret: The abilities that give 1 spellpower per point spent only give you 1 spellpower. All the OTHER abilities give you the rest of the spellpower.

I agree that 1 dodge is worth 1 AP -- as a tier 1 or 2 enhancement. Most cores are typically stronger than that.

But whatever, it's easily the least of the issues with the tree as presented now. It's a core that is only marginally useful. But if the rest of the tree was powerful enough, it wouldn't be a problem.

The real problems remain unaddressed:

1. Way, way, way too little DPS in the tree, considering what it requires you to give up (TWF or THF) -- this may be addressed by the single weapon fighting feats you mentioned, but you have to remember that a bard is extremely feat starved already (especially a pure bard, which will presumably want Empower Healing, Quicken, Heighten, ideally Enchantment spell focuses or Mental Toughness or Magical Training, etc.)

2. Evasion is useless in epics without some means of dramatically boosting reflex saves, and this tree doesn't grant evasion until epics

3. Not enough CHA/DEX synergy -- this ties in with 1 & 2, but some form of CHA to damage and/or saves is really important to this tree

4. So many of the benefits relying on the stance is going to be extremely (unplayably?) annoying if we lose the stance all the time from using scrolls or wands or swapping weapons



Semi-related note -- bards are a primary casting class, getting access to spells from level 1. It's bizarre that they don't get Magical Training innately. Can that be fixed? Currently, when I think about building a melee bard, I really consider 1 level of Favored Soul or Cleric to be absolutely necessary -- it gives a form of CHA to damage from Divine Might and also grants Magical Training.

[MangLord]

Swashbuckling looks to have potential, assuming the devs are willing to meet the players halfway and make some changes. The capstone looks good, particularly the evasion, but it's likely people will continue to splash with rogue or monk unless you take the existing capstone and double or triple everything. Keep in mind that sword and board fighting is painfully slow compared to the raw damage of THF and the strength of numbers coming off TWF. A high doublestrike/doubleshot (25-30%) doesn't seem to even things out in my experience. It becomes even worse when you're limited to weapons with a d4 or d6 base damage. A d8 longsword was pathetic for sword and board, in my experience.

It will be fun to see handaxes and light picks have a little potential again, as well as buckler shields finally having some purpose. On the other hand, you're going to need to add a bunch of named light weapons and bucklers, or this PrE will be only short swords and rapiers.

One thing that needs addressing is the evasion. Evasion needs to be granted fairly early, say by level 6. Ditch the uncanny dodge and give evasion, and change to improved evasion for the capstone. That would make the capstone look a lot better, or people will just continue to splash with rogue or monk to get evasion far earlier. Granting it at level 20 is a little late to the party, or missing the festivities entirely. If i took two rogue levels, I gain sneak attack dice, dex for damage on kukri and daggers, trapping skills and evasion, but lose out on the swashbuckler capstone. It hardly seems like a difficult choice.

-I'm unlikely to ever take Insults, as its another slightly useless clickie clogging up the hotbars.
-Limber up is also a complete waste of space. I have never tumbled, nor have I ever seen anyone tumble. Balance and swim are two skills that I've never considered putting points into. How does a bonus to trap saves help when you don't have evasion until level 20?
-Aqua Vitae will also be dumped if it has a cooldown longer than 20sec. That won't keep me alive when I'm in trouble, so I don't need it.
-En Pointe is another mediocre clickie clogging up my hotbars. Having it drain my blue bar makes it even worse.
-Sword Dance damage is barely worth it. 1d20 damage on a miss might be relevant in harbor quests. Having it increase with spellpower is interesting, but the low base numbers assure that spellpower isn't going to add all that much. Still unworthy of precious AP.
-Battering Barrage is also fairly useless, since most everything besides a particularly tough boss (Harry comes to mind) is dead before enough destruction can be applied to have any effect. Its one of those things that looks good on paper, but I've never seen a noticeable benefit from it.

I would like to see DEX or even CHA as an alternate damage option. The first tier of the core abilities looks pretty weak. Perhaps adding it in there with the 1% dodge? Assassins get it right away. It would open up more build options. With my personal style of play, I would opt for elf to get racial dex for damage on rapiers, but that would only apply to that particular weapon, squeezing me out of other weapon options. I don't like to spread my stat points more than I have to. Evasion isn't so great on elite unless your reflex saves are pretty high. Dex for damage seems to make sense for a swashbuckler build. With relatively few ways to jack up Dex, and the low base damage of light and throwing weapons, I don't think this is overpowered at all.

The tree looks alright for heroic levels, but a swashbuckler will get eaten alive like so many other classes in EE, maybe even EH. Even with dodge, blur and ghostly, having to stand in front of an endgame EH or EE mob armed with a rapier and buckler assures a low HP class like bard is going to be another mana sink for the healer. If you make some adjustments and tailor the capstone (this goes for every class, really) for the epic difficulty you guys designed, you might have something here. It has a lot of potential to be different and fun.

The main points are evasion needs to be granted earlier, an option for DEX or CHA damage would be terrific, and the sonic damage bonuses are nice, but could use a little more beef. You also need to remember how hard you have made end game content for any melee class, and design PrE enhancements and especially capstones with that in mind.

[bbqzor]

Semi-related note -- bards are a primary casting class, getting access to spells from level 1. It's bizarre that they don't get Magical Training innately. Can that be fixed?

4 points into Spellsinger takes care of this. Magical Studies 3 provides Magical Training in addition to its 100 mana, along with Orb Proficiency and Echos of Power by proxy. Since its likely most bards will want Lingering Song as well, its a pretty low impact purchase.

Much of the power of swashbuckler is from mixing it with the existing Bard lines, especially on a pure bard. Theres a lot of cool things you can do between them all. At this point in the thread I strongly believe it would be better if they got a final version of Swashbuckler out first, before cleaning up the other two. It will be easier to know how to adjust those, when the variable a new pre isnt hanging above them as well. Case in point here... its one thing which should definitely NOT be adjusted, heh. As you say, its simply too critical to put anywhere else harder to reach... and swashbuckler is working with that, not against it.