Swashbuckler

[JohnWarlock]

Looking at the prestige, I can understand why some people are disappointed in how it's being handled.

I'll start with the Core Abilities: Spell Power is inherently added whether the character is swashbuckling or not,

Level 1: Swift Strikes: 1% Dodge, is pretty much useless at that level, and unless wearing robes/outfits it will probably end up being useless as well without it being %1 Dodge and Cap.
Shield Proficiency: Buckler

Level 3: Swashbuckling: It's nice that you guys made it a stance, however does it work with other stances? Defensive Stance, etc? Weapon Finesse
Also, since there are no cutlass in the game, can we substitute it for scimitars?
dagger, handaxe, throwing dagger and short sword: +2 threat range
Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
lightpick: +1 threat range
kukri, rapier: +1 multiplier

I did take out shuriken, that's what Drow are for.

Level 6: +5 Sonic Spell Power

Level 12: +5 Sonic Spell Power

Level 18: +10 Sonic Spell Power

Capstone: +10 Sonic Spell Power


TIER 1:

Blow by Blow: Don't make the cool down too long.

TIER 2:

Aqua Vitae: Is pretty much a joke with Self healing characters.

TIER 3:

Swashbuckling Style: Should have something for two handed fighting as well.

TIER 4:

Swashbuckling Style II: Slap in the face stun might last 2-3 seconds instead since it has a save.

TIER 5:

Thread the Needle: Is kinda of a joke, since it only works while in Precision Stance


Those are some suggested changes, but still the prestige seems a little weak even after those changes.

[RD2play]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

make it bucklers (and orbs) only please !! and you have a win !

[Qhualor]

I just have to comment on this. 1% dodge is utterly useless for a level 1 Bard on Korthos. Utterly.

I would not be surprised if you did full korthos clear without a single hit evaded by the 1% dodge. Even something as useless as DR 1/slashing would be more useful for the level 1 bard.

Any dodge is nice for the later levels with higher damage hits, but early on, not so much.

not at all. I have a 1% dodge item that I use for Korthos and see plenty of dodge misses. 1% dodge for level 1 just means you don't need to wear an item.

[Thar]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

A towershield using swashbuckling bard just doesn't sound right. i'd restict to buckler/light and give them a bonus to shield ac as compensation.

and then put some good bucklers/light shields in game...

[Silken-Akira]

TIER 5:

Thread the Needle: Is kinda of a joke, since it only works while in Precision Stance

I still think this and most of the tree all depends on how the new SWF feats will look like. If they add also some things that is linked to Precision like with Pa and OC then it might finally give some interesting choices for builds.


@Flavilandile: On instinct I agree. the tree feels very rogueish indeed and will be a perfect addition there. But on the other hand bards do need something that makes them more interesting that others don't have. If this gets fleshed out in a good way than it would bring them some of that love they need hopefully.

[BananaHat]

You are missing a huge opportunity to upgrade bard songs some more, which have become less relevant when you can get equal or greater bonuses to attack and damage from items now.

Scoundrel's song: Adds 1d4/2d4/3d4 sneak attack damage to your inspire courage.

Swashbuckler's slide: Adds 1/2/3% morale dodge bonus to your inspire greatness and 1/2/3% morale bonus to dodge cap to your inspire heroics.

Drunken sing-along: Your fascinate effect causes a mild stupor, similar to being drunk. Foes affected by your fascinate take a -1/-2/-3 penalty to saves/attacks/skills for 1 minute (stacks 3 times because you can always drink more! Bosses only take a -1 penalty from the third tier, still stacks 3 times). While affected, they also have a small chance to dance for 3 seconds or be knocked down upon being hit (1/2/3% for each, separate 10 second cooldown timers to prevent spam control effects, bosses are immune).

Scoundrel's style: Your inspire competence grants an additional +2/+4/+6 bonus to balance, tumble, jump, bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate and +1/+2/+3 scoundrel bonus to reflex saves. You also gain these bonuses when you use inspire competence.

[hit_fido]

Would like to see any weapon currently attached (as in "weapon attachment") added alongside finesse/thrown weapons as qualifiers for swashbuckling.

Would like to see more viable throwing options come out of this for non-shuriken users. Doesn't sound like it's there yet.

[Silken-Akira]

You are missing a huge opportunity to upgrade bard songs some more, which have become less relevant when you can get equal or greater bonuses to attack and damage from items now.

Scoundrel's song: Adds 1d4/2d4/3d4 sneak attack damage to your inspire courage.

Swashbuckler's slide: Adds 1/2/3% morale dodge bonus to your inspire greatness and 1/2/3% morale bonus to dodge cap to your inspire heroics.

Drunken sing-along: Your fascinate effect causes a mild stupor, similar to being drunk. Foes affected by your fascinate take a -1/-2/-3 penalty to saves/attacks/skills for 1 minute (stacks 3 times because you can always drink more! Bosses only take a -1 penalty from the third tier, still stacks 3 times). While affected, they also have a small chance to dance for 3 seconds or be knocked down upon being hit (1/2/3% for each, separate 10 second cooldown timers to prevent spam control effects, bosses are immune).

Scoundrel's style: Your inspire competence grants an additional +2/+4/+6 bonus to balance, tumble, jump, bluff, diplomacy, and intimidate and +1/+2/+3 scoundrel bonus to reflex saves. You also gain these bonuses when you use inspire competence.

I would rather say add some specific songs. A swashbuckler does have more the I am the man shine thing on him. And so is more the bard type that only thinks about his own skin. so songs/tricks/actions that represent this would fall better in his tree (in my opinion off course, thread clearly shows that there is a lot of different opinions about what image the swashbuckler brings up in our minds)

[Mryal]

Last core ability additional effects:
You receive Dodge feat for free.
Toggle ability: If in swashbuckler stance you deal piercing/slashing bludgeoning damage on each hit it is converted to sonic damage and is affected by your sonic spell power.
+0.5[W] When using a Rapier or Dagger in your Main Hand.

THIS.This is the best suggestion in this whole discussion by far.Put the evasion down to 12 and add this as capstone.This trully looks like a capstone, defines a whole new build just for staying pure 20.The bard has always had sonic spellpower and no way to effectively use it, and mediocre melee skills.This adds both together, wich is, like i had suggested earlier too, the only way to actualy bring a bard dps to an acceptable level.

[HuneyMunster]

How about giving Swashbuckler Whirlwind Attack as a free feat (and at same time fix the issues with it for weapon attacks).

Another thing that would be nice to add a robe attack that either trips the target/s similar to Drider Web Line Trip or Entangles the target/s.

[Candela90]

I dont understand the complaints really. I mean - yeah having to have swashbuckler in off hand is kinda not so fun BUT:
- you get evasion
- you get Precision with PA benefits
- you get lots of dodge
- you get crit multiplayer and crit threat range
- you get faster running

Shame you dont get DEX to dmg and let's say : a lot faster hitting with that 1 weapon - that would be cool.
I think it's missing something - becuase bards are really very weak right now - BUT for me its a lot better than Spellsinger and Warchanter.
It misses some dps or free feats - because bards lack those two.



Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.

I wonder if it works with thrown weapons. If yes then this bard would be fun thrower build. The only problem would be - it doesnt have 10k stars

[mna]

Whatever you do, devs, please don't cave to anyone demanding that swashbuckling support big heavy blades. That's not in the theme of the prestige. And dwarven axes, longswords (+ broadswords), bastard swords, warhammers, battle axes, etc, just don't fit. That's more of a Kensei thing, with whatever the new 1h-Fighting feat(s) will be. I suppose the runearm thing fits though, if you think of it as an analog to a dueling pistol or a naval pistol/handcannon. That fits the swashbuckler theme.

Well, I suppose it would be thematically appropriate to allow anything with dexterity to attack or damage rolls and one weapon. EVEN IF that would then allow an elven falchion swashbuckler, or even quarterstaff rogue/bard builds.

Seeing more dex/falchion builds couldn't be all bad... and ranger-3 swashbucklers shouldn't become too common anyway with the requirement to NOT be TWF.

[memloch]

I do play a bard and I love the class. If you are looking at making changes to the other trees I would suggest:

Spell singer

Remove Flicker. I have found this ability to be completely useless. I would suggest a sonic SLA that is either a dot or AOE. Or perhaps something in the necro area to compliment Wail of the Banshee at cap.

For Warchanter

Remove the whole gathering cold thing. In its place add some sla's. Perhaps jump or elemental resistance.

For the Swashbuckler tree I am excited. I would agree with most that there needs to be more power added. I am also hoping that there will be some epic bucklers in the new 3BC area

[RumbIe]

THIS.This is the best suggestion in this whole discussion by far.Put the evasion down to 12 and add this as capstone.This trully looks like a capstone, defines a whole new build just for staying pure 20.The bard has always had sonic spellpower and no way to effectively use it, and mediocre melee skills.This adds both together, which is, like i had suggested earlier too, the only way to actualy bring a bard dps to an acceptable level.

Let's not limit this to just rapiers and daggers. Let's keep thrown weapons here as well.

To me this looks pretty cool for a thrower build. I'm running a drow monk shuricannon and I can see some nice additions to the build from this or even another thrower style build that could come from it.

As for it's original intent of S&B? Meh. When I think sword and board fighting I think fighters loaded down with armor being a wall of steel. I get what you're going for. Dread Pirate Roberts meets Errol Flynn. You ever see one of them with a shield? Ditch any bonus for having something in your offhand and beef up keeping that hand free. That hand is used for balance.

Maybe a skill that freezes the opponent in fear for your skill with a blade (Flourishing Fear?). Make it like the assassinate enhancement in that it is dc based and a frozen mob is 100% susceptible to sneak attacks for 10 seconds or something.

Maybe a skill like abundant step or fvs wings. Pirates are somehow always finding rope swings or candelabras to swing across a room.

I say more swash and less buckle. Bucklers are for cannon fodder on the upper decks of the pirate ship that are the first to be cut down. The hero never wears them.

[RTN]

Concerning the Single Weapon Fighting feats: Our current design for these does not require an empty off-hand, just that you have a one-handed weapon in your main hand and don't have a weapon in your off-hand. Shields would conceivably be allowed, for instance.

This is definitely subject to change, but important to know when considering balance between abilities.

If you allow shields, it should be restricted to buckler only.

[nibel]

To me this looks pretty cool for a thrower build. I'm running a drow monk shuricannon and I can see some nice additions to the build from this or even another thrower style build that could come from it.

I would love to know how you intend to splash bard in a monk build.

The "throwing" part of this prestige don't need to be as powerful as shuricannons, but must be aware that they CAN'T splash monk for shuriken goodness. Heck, shuriken is the ONLY throwing weapon that is not improved by Swashbuckling stance.

[Arlathen]

Some initial Feedback:

1. I see no real reason to bother with the Capstone, I'm better off Multi-classing for Evasion.
The major reason for this is that although Bards come with innate High Reflex, they don't particularly specialise in Dexterity and have no obvious Reflex save improvements. Required Reflex save numbers in Epics and EEs in particular are atrocious (70+ ?), meaning unless you roll a Dex Specialist Elf Swashbuckler with Weapon Finesse and Elven Grace your gonna to make the capstone not worth the effort of obtaining.

Suggestion:
Add Dex to Damage as an ability in the tree, requiring you to take Weapon Finesse as a Feat.
Add +1 Reflex Save as a passive ability to all of the Core Abilities.
Add a further ability allowing you to obtain +1/+2/+3 Reflex Saves as low hanging fruit, or roll it into 'On Your Toes'.

Alternative Solution:
Swashbuckling increases the range at which a Reflex Save is automatically passed. Each Swashbuckler Core Ability increases the range by +1, thus granting a an automatic Reflex Save pass on a 15-20 (30%) and the Evasion Feat being worthwhile as a Capstone.


2. There's not enough bonus Damage and Doublestrike to warrant going for Swashbuckling over a THF/TWF Warchanter.
THF and TWF outstrip Swashbuckling significantly, as you cannot compare this form of fighting to either TWF 80% Offhand attacks or even GTHF Glancing Blows. Assuming your in Precision feat, I see 12% Doublestrike and +15 Damage at Character Level 30. That's not even close to a SnB build with full GTHF, Glancing Blows, Power Attack and the circa 50% Doublestrike these builds can currently obtain.

To get close, you would need to make your 1-Handed chain of Feats grant atleast +6% Doublestrike per feat. Yes, that's right, reflect what Natural Fighting does. Even then, your only upto 30% Doublestrike, allowing you through gear and Epic destinies to hit the same 50%ish Doublestrike mark that SnB gets too. But then SnB gets Glancing Blows.

Suggestion:
Add the 1-Handed chain of feats, each granting:
- 8% Doublestrike / 3% Dodge if fighting open offhanded
- 6% Doublestrike / 2% Dodge if fighting with a Buckler/Orb/RuneArm
- 4% Doublestrike / 1% Dodge if fighting with a Shield larger than a Buckler

A little warning here though: With these feats, your making this tree a 5-feat investment (Weapon Finesse, Precision, 3x 1HF Feats), but also proxy-nerfing it straight out the box as the Bard will have a hard time picking up PA & Cleaves to gain Overwhelming Critical and will generally not be in PA mode for Legendary Drednought abilties.



3. Add more Damage
Even with the Doublestrike/1HF feat comments above, it needs more Damage. The one thing I would like to see is basically a stacking Sonic DoT applied on Melee/Thrown attacks while Swashbuckling:

Suggestion:
Tier 5 ability - Harmony of Style - 2AP
Once every 6s, your melee or thrown weapon attacks applies a damage effect to the target of your Attacks.
- Damage effect lasts 10s, with a 'tick' of damage happening every 2 seconds
- Inflicts 1D6 Sonic Damage +1 per Bard Level, subject to Sonic Spellpower and Sonic Crit chance.
- The effect can stack upto three times per mob damaged

This would allow a Bard to gain some damage momentum while dealing with a single particularly large sackful of HP Mob.



4. I hope your doing something with the 1-Handed Fighting Animation
Watching a bunch of Bard's swashbuckling there way through Thunderholme with a Light Hammer in hand is going to be highly amusing to watch. The animation works very well for a SnB character, but it's not so great without a Shield

Hope that Helps!

[LordTigerDawn]

First core is weak, particularly in korthos. suggestion: add charisma to AC. There, useful in korthos. Cap by bard levels to prevent dipping.

I like this idea... Charisma bonus to AC that is.

[Free2Pay]

Strike A (vocal) Chord passive: How about giving Bard the ability to inflict spell casting (both arcane and divine) failures on melee hits or silent ground on some sort of toggle song stance? A Bard's voice/pitch should be loud/sharp enough to disrupt enemy spell casting that has Verbal component.

[Nascoe]

The major difference is that fighter's aren't Bards. Turbine fears bards. Hates them. Every class* gets enhancements that are typed uniquely to enhancement trees. Bards get insight bonuses to dex cap. Morale bonuses to songs (the same as equipment for years), Rage bonuses that don't stack with barbarian rage. The fact they they specifically labelled this a "defensive stance" makes me think they're going to group it with Resilience, Combat Expertise, and Defensive Fighting.




*Except Pallies. They hate pallies too. Sacred bonuses.

Sure, right. But when its explicitly stated that Turbine want this "swashbuckler stance" to be able to work with something like precision, (Steelstar posts), why doubt that is the intention.

Sure, a lot can go wrong with implementing (and that is what the first poster asking about these mentioned) is they mess up and either it doesn't work, or suddenly all sorts of stances can be used simultaneously. But as you are not able to test THIS stance yet, and Turbine wants to make it work a little bit differently, why would you mention you tested this and it does NOT work at all?