Swashbuckler

[admiralakbar]

Here's my main critique: in its current form, Swashbuckler offers no unique benefit that would make me seriously consider Bard levels in situations where I wasn't already going to take Bard levels


It should extend on the Bard feel, not support Fighter-wannabees who also sing songs
There are a lot of abilities that seem interesting until you step back and realize that you will still be on a bard. That means a lot of utility and CC, but not a lot of damage and not much mitigation.

Giving a bunch of minor combat bonuses is nowhere near the combat bonuses you get as another class (not to mention the difference feats make). Basically, a swashbuckler would be jumping through more hoops (stance/gear requirements, limited multiclassing, etc) in order to be a slightly less terrible character when not doing the main bard stuff (imho i.e. buffing, CCing, and other support-type functions).

This is the same problem with Warchanter--take lots of minor benefits that add up to the Warchanter still being a terrible DPS character who can also sing songs.


I don't get the whole crit profile thing
This seems to be a big focus of the Swashbuckler kit. I get that we're manipulating the crit profiles, but why? I can't choose weapons that are going to crit particularly hard. If I'm going heavy bard, I can't afford feats to back it up like Overwhelming Crit.

Maybe there's some powerful synergy I'm not thinking of. Paladin/Monk could be interesting but alignment restrictions preclude any synergies there. There's nothing from the core Bard class that synergizes here. There's level draining I guess, but that's better with TWF.

I don't know... crit mechanics are different than they used to be. Some newer effects only work on 19/20s or vorpals, the new ruby eye augments could have been crit-based but they weren't, you don't see mods like bodyfeeder around any more, hold monster + crit is not as good as it was. Crit builds are currently for greataxes and such--not rapiers.

If we're really going down this road, at least give me the option to include Dwarven Axes, Longswords, Bastard Swords, Khopeshes, or something like that.


My proposed focus for Swashbuckler: combat ebb and flow
Make it to where a Swashbuckler Bard is a good DPS option for a while and then they hop back to support/CC. That way I might see a Bard hit my LFM and think "cool!" instead of "hmmm... I guess we can afford some deadweight..."

The doublestrike/doubleshot action boost is a good step towards this. What about exploring options for synergies with abilities like 'Exploit Weaknesses' or 'Sword Dance'. Consider how 'Advancing Blows' from LD encourages a melee fighter to charge into the next group of enemies without pausing to heal to full and how that matches the overall feel of the Dreadnought destiny kit. Make the abilities all tie in with what it means to be a Swashbuckler.

Sooooo, here are some interesting mechanics that might serve this proposed ebb-and-flow theme:

• High-stacking, very temporary buffs gained from avoiding damage for a while
• Things like the "First Strike" feat (but not as terrible) or the recent changes to Quivering Palm
• If we're going with crit profile, add some synergy like stacking sonic spellpower or Enchantment DCs on crit
• Active abilities that give big combat bonuses for a short time on long cooldown. The Bard can reduce the cooldowns by dodging attacks, getting crits, or performing supporting actions like singing a bard song
• Unique bard song effects (doublestrike song? max dodge bonus song? convert a bard song use to an extra action boost (up to once a minute, on demand)?)

[Systern]

Thread the Needle - hmmm. This will depend a LOT on how you plan the one handed fight feats. Right now, every single meele in the gae wants Power attack, Cleave, Great Cleave and Overwhelming critical. Thread the needle means, that I would have to waste one feat (I would have to take Power Attack just as prerequisite and never use it). Bards dont have any extra feats, so that is a hard choice. Also, it has zero synergy with Legendary Dread Epic desiny, but that may be your goal.
Outside of LD and depending on single handed feats, this may be interesting to take.

Currently on live, every defensive stance negates offensive stances: turning on Defensive Fighting shuts off Power Attack. Since this tree is all about crits making up the difference in lower base damage, the natural build tendency is for Overwhelming Critical, which requires Power Attack, which you can't use because of the Swashbuckler stance. Bards are already feat starved. Hidden Feat Tax is just the bard status quo. Sad.

The level 3 core doesn't do enough on it's own to warrant giving up Power Attack. All the riders on the stance bloom too late to make up for not using power attack. I'm not a min/maxxing power player to the degree that I'll do LRs at level 20 to get to my build, but even I would be using Power Attack and cleaves while levelling and reset enhancements later in life. Encouraging the player to not play the enhancement tree while levelling seems a shame.

Also as mentioned, melee's premier choices in Epic Destinies are Dreadnought and Fury, and the lack of Power Attack negates the use of Dreadnought. Perhaps the tweaks proposed to Fatesinger would make this limitation acceptable, but in the current environment, it's not palatable.


I haven't done the numbers, but on quick impression: The difference between the capstone and a 2 rogue splash is -1% double strike, +1 reflex save. The splash grants access to all the rogue trees, trapping, etc. It's not a compelling capstone.


There's merit in the tree, but there's these fundamental flaws from actually making Bards, which are habitually lackluster, shine.

[viktorserak]

Handwraps are finessable. You should put the standard handwraps disclaimer in, because right now that description makes it look like wraps are compatible.

Ehm, does it matter?

I mean, out of the top of my head, I am not sure if the unarmed fighting feat (the one that allows monks to punch and kick fast instead of punching slowly as everyone else does) is actually selectable as normal feat.

If it is not, then who cares anyway?

I amen, sure, you can prolly get the fast and usefull animation with GmoF destiny, but that destiny is still pretty useless for everything else in swashbuckler in general...

[Wizza]

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.

Weak. This would be a nice place for Charisma to Hit and Charisma to damage. It's a bard tree.

• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Range
    Light Pick: +1 Range

Is this ignoring other feats like OC, Devastating criticals etc?

• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.

Not bad.

• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

Very weak. Splashing rogue does the same.

Tier One

• Blow By Blow:
• Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.

Depending on the Sonic damage and the cooldown of this ability. Might not be too bad if the Cooldown is low and the damage is good so you can kinda spam it.

[list][*]Multiselector: Insults

1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)

Similar to the rogues one, will not find much uses. I'd like a Spell Penetration -10 option as well, for the few Horrors/Shadovars/Drows.

• Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
• Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Meh.


Tier Two

• En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.

Now this makes no sense. It should be a +1 Critical multiplier, low spell point cost, low cooldown ability.

• Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)

Not bad.

• Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).

Really weak. 60 HP are gone in half of a hit on a pure bard. The heal is also too weak. Long cooldown as well? Trash.

• Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)

This have a good synergy with the purpose of this enhancement but the damage is WAY TOO LOW. Make it a 10d20, scaling with Spell Power and we can start talking.


Tier Three

• Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.

Again, nice synergy but SMALL CHANCE? Make it a decent chance and helpless also.

• Swashbuckling Style:
• Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.

Nothing in your off hand? It wouldn't be bad otherwise but nothing..wow. Makes ZERO sense.

• Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.

Make it on every hit and you got a winner. We are still talking about Bards DPS.


Tier Four

• On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)

Attack rolls to confirm hits. Useless.

• Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
• Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.

ONE SECOND stunned? It's a placeholder value, isn't it? Also with a 18s cooldown. What is wrong? Make it a 6s cooldown, 4s duration stun. The spell points will be the limiting factor.

• Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.

Why briefly again?

• Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.

Just..lol.

• Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.

Not bad but 4 AP for this? Should be 1 AP per tier.

• Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.

Not bad.


Tier Five

• Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.

Why the Precision requirement? OC and Momentum Swing both relies on Power attack. Who would turn Precision on? +5 damage when PA is on makes more sense.

• Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Not bad.

What this tree needs is:

Charisma to hit/dmg enhancement.
More Sonic Spell power. 1 Sonic Spellpower per point spent in the tree looks good to add.

Another tier 5 ability. I'd add something like the Eldritch Tempest from the EK tree (with some tweaks of course):

Perform a spinning melee attack, dealing weapon damage +2[W] to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second.
While Swashbuckling, your weapon also releases an explosion of magical force, dealing an additional 1d6 Sonic damage per character level to all nearby enemies. This additional Sonic damage is affected by your spell power.

[unbongwah]

Although I think your Duelist line is significantly worse than the Dashing Swordsman line, especially since a pure swashbuckler is already likely to be bucking up against the dodge cap. I would replace one of your dodge bonuses with something that gives innate Incorporeality at a higher level than the 10% available from Ghostly.

Part of my revamp would include building on the free Duelist feats. To whit, I'd add the following:

Tier One:

Taunting Insults (2 APs): You have a knack for enraging enemies with your "colorful" turns of phrase, encouraging them to attack you. This ability uses your Perform skill, and shares a cooldown with the Intimidate skill. This effect last 12 seconds if you have a buckler equipped or 6 secs. without one. Only usable while Swashbuckling is active. (Cooldown: 15 seconds)

Tier Two:

Shield Striking (1 AP per rank): Increases your chance to make secondary shield bashes while attacking by 5%/10%/15%. Rank 3: you also gain Overbalance (your shield gains on Vorpal: Knock an opponent to the ground).
Requires: Improved Shield Bash feat

Tier Three:

Sly Flourish (1 AP per rank): Deals +0.5/1.0/1.5[W] damage. If you successfully damage your target, you gain a +3%/+6%/+9% Insight bonus to Dodge for 6 seconds. (Cooldown: 12 seconds) Rank 3: your swordsmanship dazzles your opponents further - if you are:
Duelist: you also gain 25% Incorporeality for the duration of the Dodge bonus (does not stack with other Incorp bonuses).
Dashing Swordsman: your attacks gain Improved Shattermantle and Improved Cursespewing for the duration of the Dodge bonus.
Requires: Dodge feat OR Duelist lvl 6 core enhancement

Blessing of Olladra (1 AP per rank): Your Inspire Courage song now provides +1/2/3 untyped bonus to saving throws. Rank 3: After singing Inspire Courage, you gain a +4 competence bonus to CHA for 60 seconds. [Does not stack with Inspire Excellence.]
Requires: Luck of Heroes feat OR Dashing Swordman lvl 6 core enhancement

Tier Four:

Improved Mobility (1 AP per rank): you gain +1/2/3 to your Max DEX Bonus in light armor. Rank 3: you also gain +5% to your max Dodge bonus cap.
Requires: Mobility OR Duelist lvl 12 core enhancement

Whirling Blades: While Swashbuckling is active and your offhand is empty, you gain an additional +5/10/15% enhancement bonus to attack speed while Hasted. [Stacks with Haste spell but not other Enhancement bonuses such as Fatal Harrier.]

Tier Five:

Thread the Needle (2 APs): While Swashbuckling and Precision are active, you gain an additional +1 Critical Damage Multiplier. [Stacks w/core enh, so effectively this means any Finesseable or thrown weapon becomes 18-20 x4 not counting Imp Crit.] In addition, if you are:
Duelist: While Swashbuckling and Precision are active, you gain a bonus to Fortification reduction equal to your DEX modifier.
Dashing Swordsman: While Swashbuckling and Precision are active, your attacks apply a penalty to Spell Resistance equal to your CHA modifier. [Does not stack with Shattermantle.]

Sweeping Flourish: You perform a +1/2/3[W] Cleave attack on targets in front of you (20 sec cooldown). In addition, if you are:
Duelist: Struck enemies must make a Balance check or be knocked down for 2/4/6 seconds (DC 10 + # of bard lvls + DEX mod).
Dashing Swordsman: Struck enemies must make a Will save or be dazed for 2/4/6 seconds (DC 10 + # of bard lvls + CHA mod).

It's all still a work in progress, but my core concept is Duelists should hit 30% Dodge, have 25% Incorp half the time, and have higher Fortification reduction; while Dashing Swordsmen are geared more towards debuffs which feed into one's offensive spells. All Swashbucklers should have good doublestrike bonuses: if you're going single-handed, the focus is on faster atk speed as well; while S&B should get more defensive perks.

[jakeelala]

There's nothing in this tree that would make me give up monk or pally levels..

Even as a 16bard/2fighter/2rogue I'd not invest heavily in this tree, there's nothing to augment my songs, nothing boosting my perform, the melee capabilities are pathetic compared to 2 handed cleave and great cleave.

Single handed feats could potentially improve this tree, but I doubt single handed fighting can be made viable without the feats being so powerful they invalidate 2wf or 2hf. If you allow Single handed fighting feats to work with thrown weapons it won't help this tree, it'll push shuriken builds further ahead.

Overall this tree's only hope at a unique new build is throwers, but you've made shuriken so powerfull that I can't see any swashbuckling thrower builds that would compete with a shuriken build.

You've poached abilities from other areas and mashed them into a single tree, this is a tree with no synergies, and no direction. Scrap it.

With enough doublestrike and enough crit threat/multi (which I think this is going to provide) you could make some pretty competitive thrower builds with ED's in the mix. Of course, this is all theoretical and not tested.

Agreed on all other points.

[Munkenmo]

Ehm, does it matter?

I mean, out of the top of my head, I am not sure if the unarmed fighting feat (the one that allows monks to punch and kick fast instead of punching slowly as everyone else does) is actually selectable as normal feat.

If it is not, then who cares anyway?

I amen, sure, you can prolly get the fast and usefull animation with GmoF destiny, but that destiny is still pretty useless for everything else in swashbuckler in general...

I was thinking for kicks about going with a 17druid/3bard, in gmof cause I'm a max wis build that makes good use of EIN.

3 swashbuckler could have added:
4% dodge
1 crit multiplier
-3 enemey reflex saves (good for earthquake)
no save knockdown
7% double strike
+5 damage per swing
+6d6 sonic per crit.

[Delacroix21]

First Core abilities are generally not that powerful. 1% Dodge for 1 AP is fairly strong for a level 1 Bard on Korthos.

Dont add abilities that are good at level 1 but irrelevant at cap, all should scale.

Fair point. Increasing the Max Dex bonus is something we'll discuss internally.

This class will have a low ac, he needs this amoung other things as a surivivability boost. Also= no dex/charisma to damage?

We'd love to hear what you (and others) think the SP cost and cooldown should be. As of now, it is planned to go off almost instantaneously, have about the same AOE as Soundburst, have no max number of targets and would affect Bosses. You hit the button, every nearby enemy's saves go down. There are currently three planned ranks of each, with each rank planned to reduce cooldown and SP cost (wherever that ends up landing).

-3 saves is WEAK, especially at endgame. Why not tie in the saves debuff to an aoe sonic damage shout spell like ability?

This ability is meant to be a viable, non-magical emergency self-heal. From feedback so far, it sounds like the healing is too low at the very least. We'd love to know where you all think the healing should be, or what changes would make this ability interesting/"worth taking". Do bear in mind, it can be taken at level two.

As soon as you tack on a temporary healing must be active (like warchanter) you immediately make the ability non-viable at end game. Heck the only reason coccoon is viable is it gives 150 temp, and its only viable for ranged or running around like an idiot after cast. Also make the heal scale with character level. Seriously how else could you make a ability viable at level cap and level 2?

We've been playing with the numbers on this one, trying to find a balance where this ability goes off often but not constantly. There is no save to the knockdown. Again, we'd love to hear where you think the chances and cooldowns should be.

as others have said, NO COOLDOWN. This class (and all classes) dont die 1 on 1 with mobs, they die when swarmed. Adding a cooldown means it will NEVER work on 2 mobs at a time, making this ****. 10% on miss with no cooldown. Heck the caster ones is 30% on spells being cast at them with no cooldown!!!

The Dashing Scoundrel (Empty Hand) option in Swashbuckling Styles is intentionally stronger than the other ones. To use it, you're giving up having any other item in your off hand, ever. The comparison is 7% Dodge plus whatever your Buckler's giving you.

No comment.

The current iteration (when capped) is faster than Barbarians but a little slower than Monks. It stacks with Barbarian Movement Speed, and anything else that stacks with.

I would make them match monks at cap, they lack monk AC, incorporeal, etc. and it wouldnt hurt.


On a technical note, this can't be three ranks as the Swashbuckling Style below it has only one rank. We'll discuss internally whether this (and other abilities in the tree) should be giving more Spell Power.

ok.

You should be able to use Swashbuckling and Precision simultaneously.

cool.

Thanks! There was a lot of good feedback in this post, both positive and negative.

Varg and I have been keeping up on the thread so far, thank you for the feedback.

Also I MUST point out that SWF needs to MATCH TWF and THF dps, WITHOUT this PrE. If you are only making this fighting style viable with this PrE then you are wasting both our time and yours. Dont forget to add perfect single weapon fighting epic feat either.


As for the thrower portion=
You guys did ZERO testing and homework on the viability of this. Dont you dare deny it. The current thrower builds in DDO are Shiradi monks with 60 dex and 60% chance to triple throw, and quad throw 50% of the time with 10k stars. These toons are viable and NO ONE would call them OP. That is your BASELINE for a viable thrower. This thrower is an absolute JOKE! no double throw based on dex times 2, no 10k stars, he is going to suck BIG time. Comon Devs! This was OBVIOUS.

[Dawnsfire]

I'm not sure I feel really comfortable commenting on the tree because the strength of the SWF feats will largely determine whether the tree is a success or a failure. I do believe a lot of thought is needed because TWF and THF are very powerful compared to S&B. SWF definitely needs to be closer to TWF and THF than to S&B.

I am unsure why the rune arm, orb and thrown weapon portions of this PRE are thrown in. None of the choices really seem to work well with the rest of the tree or the concept as written. If this were an ED I would understand it because folks 'traveling through' to get twist points would need something but as a PRE I do not get it.

I suspect dodge cap is going to be a big problem here. OP mentions that the SWF feats will likely give dodge, the PRE hands out quite a bit of dodge but maybe I missed where max dex bonus goes up or where dodge cap goes up. The if max dex bonus doesn't go up, this will be another robe/outfit character choice. If dodge cap cannot be extended, folks will max it early and not invest very heavily in the tree.

Bards are a very feat starved class. It seems the basic feat loadout you expect a pure 20 bard to take would look like this: SWF x3, IC:P, Precision, Dodge and Weapon Finesse. This will keep a Swashbuckler away from Overwhelming Crit if they stay pure. Even they dump Weapon Finesse and Dodge they still need to jettison one more feat for Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. I don't think many folks will do without Overwhelming Crit on a largely melee character. It also really makes shield feats hard to fit in if you want to use a buckler. I have never played S&B but I would imagine you would want those feats if you plan on using a shield but there are four of those. Which feats do you expect folks to drop to get them? I think this paragraph is why you will see very few folks go pure 20 bard for all the Swashbuckler cores except for flavor types.

I am a bad commenter because I present problems with no solutions but I felt the need to weigh in anyways. I'm a pest like that

[FranOhmsford]

Bards are a very feat starved class. It seems the basic feat loadout you expect a pure 20 bard to take would look like this: SWF x3, IC:P, Precision, Dodge and Weapon Finesse. This will keep a Swashbuckler away from Overwhelming Crit if they stay pure. Even they dump Weapon Finesse and Dodge they still need to jettison one more feat for Power Attack, Cleave and Great Cleave. I don't think many folks will do without Overwhelming Crit on a largely melee character. It also really makes shield feats hard to fit in if you want to use a buckler. I have never played S&B but I would imagine you would want those feats if you plan on using a shield but there are four of those. Which feats do you expect folks to drop to get them? I think this paragraph is why you will see very few folks go pure 20 bard for all the Swashbuckler cores except for flavor types.

You've ignored the metamagics btw.

Emp. Heal
Heighten
Quicken
Extend
Max/Emp for those Sonic spells we're supposed to be DPSing with!


IF the Devs are serious about putting in a whole line of SWF Style feats then this Pre absolutely needs to give them FREE in Cores 1,3 and 5 at the very least!

[arkonas]

Handwraps are finessable. You should put the standard handwraps disclaimer in, because right now that description makes it look like wraps are compatible.

why? for one unarmed combat. 2. you can't do bard and monk anyways. so what is the point? alignment issues. since you can't use it in animal form either then there is 0 need for it. so just saying.

[Dawnsfire]

You've ignored the metamagics btw.

Emp. Heal
Heighten
Quicken
Extend
Max/Emp for those Sonic spells we're supposed to be DPSing with!


IF the Devs are serious about putting in a whole line of SWF Style feats then this Pre absolutely needs to give them FREE in Cores 1,3 and 5 at the very least!

I did leave the metas out. I tried to simplify it by stating melee because I was afraid a big ol' wall of text would not be read. Depending on how you build it, you'd probably want a few.

[jakeelala]

Currently on live, every defensive stance negates offensive stances: turning on Defensive Fighting shuts off Power Attack. Since this tree is all about crits making up the difference in lower base damage, the natural build tendency is for Overwhelming Critical, which requires Power Attack, which you can't use because of the Swashbuckler stance. Bards are already feat starved. Hidden Feat Tax is just the bard status quo. Sad.

The level 3 core doesn't do enough on it's own to warrant giving up Power Attack. All the riders on the stance bloom too late to make up for not using power attack. I'm not a min/maxxing power player to the degree that I'll do LRs at level 20 to get to my build, but even I would be using Power Attack and cleaves while levelling and reset enhancements later in life. Encouraging the player to not play the enhancement tree while levelling seems a shame.

Also as mentioned, melee's premier choices in Epic Destinies are Dreadnought and Fury, and the lack of Power Attack negates the use of Dreadnought. Perhaps the tweaks proposed to Fatesinger would make this limitation acceptable, but in the current environment, it's not palatable.


I haven't done the numbers, but on quick impression: The difference between the capstone and a 2 rogue splash is -1% double strike, +1 reflex save. The splash grants access to all the rogue trees, trapping, etc. It's not a compelling capstone.


There's merit in the tree, but there's these fundamental flaws from actually making Bards, which are habitually lackluster, shine.

PA is a pre req to TAKE OC, whether or not it is active it completely irrelevant to OC being active (it is a passive feat that is always active)

[jakeelala]

why? for one unarmed combat. 2. you can't do bard and monk anyways. so what is the point? alignment issues. since you can't use it in animal form either then there is 0 need for it. so just saying.

So that a Bard could use the Grandmaster effectively with hand-wraps and maybe an animal form. But mostly just for cheesing I think.

[Munkenmo]

why? for one unarmed combat. 2. you can't do bard and monk anyways. so what is the point? alignment issues. since you can't use it in animal form either then there is 0 need for it. so just saying.

So that a Bard could use the Grandmaster effectively with hand-wraps and maybe an animal form. But mostly just for cheesing I think.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5318736

[Wipey]

If you want to go with single weapon"theme" or make more people to even look at bard, then cores have to much stronger.
Or it's going to be only few level splash for already much stronger builds like wraps or thrower builds.

And noone will look at the prestige as a whole but if it's better as splash than other current "gamey" splashes.

In this state, nothing wants me to go " oh this is so cool, I want to play bard now and use these high level bard abilities".
My bard is still mule since Motu.

[Firewall]

This looks interesting for a first look but the Single Weapon Fighting feats will have to be really good to compete with existing fighting styles. You already mention that you want to give a bonus to armor piercing with those feats and you promote the Precision feat (with 'Thread the Needle') which also gives armor piercing, yet i don't see any bonus to Sneak Attack damage anywhere in the tree which i think would fit with the flavour of the PrE too.

Perhaps you can at least add one active Single Weapon Fighting feat - something like 'Grain of Sand: Throwing a handful of Sand/Dust in the enemies eyes with your free offhand you can have a cone-shaped AOE Blindness effect' as a CC option? Also an option to trip/knockdown a monster would be quite fitting to a swashbuckling style - anything that favors dirty tricks to give you an advantage over your opponent in a duel.

The first core ability is quite weak in my opinion perhaps you also can add a +1 stacking bonus to saves and choose another name for it?

The swashbuckling style is another thing that expands the crit ranges of throwing weapons - which is really good(!) - yet that still does not function with the existing abilities. Perhaps you should wait if you can really get that bug fixed first before adding more features that do not function and disappoint people, especially since this PrE can be made to focus on throwing weapons as a main weapon.

I think all core enhancements should give a bonus to sonic spellpower so that a bard that goes pure gets some really good benefit for his investment and you should really see some effect from sonic spellpower when you do 1d10 bonus sonic damage so 5 points might not be quite enough.

For Aqua Vitae i would suggest that you drop the temporary hitpoints, make it selfhealing only, put it on a 5 minute cooldown and scale it like you did with the Bottomless Flask of Rum where the CL is your bard level and let it be affected by positive spellpower. That way people will have a free self heal every 5 minutes with the later added benefit of a Restoration spell.

I find the Insults rather weak, especially in that they cost spellpoints, have a medium cooldown and have the single effect that they lower saves which on EE will have next to no effect since monster's saves are too high anyway and this ability is only a small debuff of which you first have to make use in a second attack someway. Probably make it a single choice option that debuffs the monsters like some kind of AOE Mass Bestow Curse and adjust the SP cost and cooldown?

Swashbuckling II is too weak too. It is a Tier 4 active ability and some also cost spellpoints so at least the Stun/Knockdown which has a save (remember EE) should last way longer than one second and of course the bonus to sonic spellpower should be much higher.

Also if you really focus on throwing weapons and light weapons there is need for a DEX to damage option.

[Systern]

PA is a pre req to TAKE OC, whether or not it is active it completely irrelevant to OC being active (it is a passive feat that is always active)

Bards are already feat starved. Hidden Feat Tax is just the bard status quo. Sad.

Taking a useless(/requirement only) feat on a feat-starved, hybrid class sucks. That was my point.


U19: "We heard your cries! Weapon Focus is useless and no longer required for your prestige, Warchanter Bards!"
U22: "Meet your new Weapon Focus, Power Attack! It's an especially stinging slap in the face because it's normally so **** good!"

If the Core-3 was a buff, like skaldic rage. Or a non-exclusive stance type: not defensive; something that doesn't conflict with PA. This would be so much better.

[b_dalmao]

Not bad but it wold be a full class like in pen and paper or a fighter enhancement tree, because pnp description has nothing to do whit the bard.

Nothing

Is a light armored warrior capable of add his intelligence to damage and if i recall well he have diplomacy and maybe bluff as class skills.

[ZeebaNeighba]

Core Abilities

• 1 AP, class level 1: Swift Strikes: Passive: +1% Dodge.
• 5 AP, class level 3: Swashbuckling: Defensive Stance: You gain 1% Doublestrike and Doubleshot as well as +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of the weapon in your main hand. Swashbuckling requires wielding a Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand, wielding a Buckler or nothing in your off hand, and wearing Light Armor or no armor. (Druids cannot Swashbuckle while in animal forms.)
  
  • Passive: While Swashbuckling, the following weapons receive Competence bonuses to their critical profiles:
    Dagger, Shortsword, Throwing Dagger: +1 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Light Mace, Sickle, Dart, Shuriken, Throwing Axe, Throwing Hammer: +2 Threat Range, +1 Multiplier
    Kukri, Rapier: +1 Multiplier
    Handaxe: +2 Range
    Light Pick: +1 Range
  
  
• 10 AP, class level 6: Uncanny Dodge: You gain the Uncanny Dodge feat. Passive: Swashbuckling grants an additional 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 20 AP, class level 12: Panache: While Swashbuckling, you gain +1% Dodge, 1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, +1 Reflex Saving Throw, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.
• 30 AP, class level 18: Roll with the Punches: While Swashbuckling, you gain +5 Insight Bonus to Character Dodge Cap, the Slippery Mind feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, and +1 Damage.
• 41 AP, class level 20: Evasive Maneuvers: +2 CHA, +2 DEX.While Swashbuckling, you gain the Evasion feat, +1% Doublestrike, 1% Doubleshot, +1 Damage, and the weapon in your main hand gains an additional +1 to its Enhancement bonus.

For the swashbuckling stance, make sure it is compatible with scrolls and wands. They are a critical part of playing a bard, and it would be really irritating to lose swashbuckler benefits for a couple of reasons:
First, make sure we don't have to manually turn it back on if we temporarily don't fit the qualifications.
Second, removing and adding lots of buffs has the tendency to cause lag. Add it to the infamous "UMD lag" or whatever and things could get painful.
Third, some of those buffs are still necessary in the type of situation bards use the most scrolls. If you need to desperately pop a heal or rez scroll, chances are you can't afford to lose your dodge and evasion.

I think the capstone is a little weak. I remember a while ago the baseline for a capstone was set at evasion, since that was a common, powerful 2 level splash. This capstone gives evasion and very little else, and it's hard to justify it over a true rogue splash where you can get their enhancement trees and trapping abilities. I would be fine with a common suggestion here to move evasion down to level 6 or 12, then make the capstone improved evasion.

Personally, I would also like a complete removal of dodge cap in the capstone, since full swashbuckler builds seem like they could be pushing anything short of that. More reflex saves are needed for evasion to effective if not going with the improved evasion suggestion, bards have a low base, no splashing ability with the good saves classes, and not all that much in unique buffs (any class can get a GH and Haste for +5 saves).

Tier One

1. On Your Toes: +1/2/3 Dodge
2. Blow By Blow:
   
   1. Multiselector: Melee or Thrown Attack: Make an attack with +(1/2/3) critical threat range that deals extra Sonic damage, and reduces your threat with nearby enemies. This sonic damage scales with Spell Power.
   
   
3. Multiselector: Insults
   
   1. Scathing Words: Activate to reduce the Fortitude saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   2. Cutting Jibes: Activate to reduce the Will saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   3. Appalling Diatribe: Activate to reduce the Reflex saves of nearby enemies by 3. (Costs Spell Points, moderate cooldown)
   
   
4. Tavern Shanties: +1/2/3 Bard Songs.
5. Limber Up: +(1/2/3) to Balance, Jump, Swim, and Tumble. 3rd Rank: When you Tumble, you gain +3 to saves against traps for 6 seconds. 12 second cooldown.

Insults is kind of hard to pull off if the bard isn't doing the CC himself, I might change this to an aura buff. Activate it with a song, make it last a minute or so, to prevent caster classes from exploiting it too much with a small splash. It seems like the type of thing to be activated by a song (start a rap battle right on the spot? sure) anyways. Just make sure it is a quick singing time if it is a short buff.

Limber Up is pretty obviously filler, this seems like a good place to add in some of the reflex save buffs.

Tier Two

1. En Pointe: Melee Attack: Make an attack with +4/8/12 critical threat range, but -1 Critical Multiplier. Costs Spell Points to activate.
2. Deflect Arrows: You gain the benefits of the Deflect Arrows feat, knocking aside one incoming projectile that would have struck you every 6/4/2 seconds. (Antireq Tempest Deflect Arrows)
3. Aqua Vitae: Gain 3 Temporary Hit Points per Bard Level for 9 seconds. Heal 1d6 HP every two seconds while the temporary hitpoints persist. (Long cooldown).
4. Sword Dance: While Swashbuckling, when enemies miss you in combat, you deal 1d10/1d12/1d20 Sonic Damage. Scales with Spell Power. (This triggers off of various miss chances, including Dodge, Armor Class, Displacement, etc.)
5. Multiselector:
   
   1. Action Boost: Doublestrike: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doublestrike for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.
   2. Action Boost: Doubleshot: You gain +10/20/30% Action Boost bonus to Doubleshot for 20 seconds. Usable 5 times per rest.

En Pointe is really weak, given it costs 3 Action Points, a hotbar spot, spell points on each activation and actually going out of your way to activate it every time it is off cooldown. First, change it into a stance or short buff that gives a buff to your next attack every few seconds like Unbridled Fury. Second, make it essentially guaranteed critical by tier 3, if we're going to go all the way and take a -1 multiplier, might as well make it +18 threat range.

Aqua Vitae is not a lot of healing. Doubling it puts it in the same ballpark as cocoon, on a pure bard.

I like Sword Dance, but again I think the damage is low. I would make it something like 1d20 + 2/5/9 per bard level.

Action Boost Doublestrike is a little weaker than Haste and Damage boosts when you already have doublestrike boosts, due to additive vs multiplicative boosts. Small buff please.

Tier Three

1. Elegant Footwork: When enemies miss you while Swashbuckling, they have a small chance to be knocked down with no save. Cooldown: 12 seconds.
2. Swashbuckling Style:
   
   1. Dashing Scoundrel: While Swashbuckling with nothing in your off hand, you gain +1 Damage per 5 Character levels and 7% Doublestrike/Doubleshot.
   2. Skirmisher: While Swashbuckling with a Buckler in your off hand, you gain 7% Dodge.
   3. Arcane Marauder: You can now Swashbuckle with an Orb in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Magical Training.
   4. Cannoneer: You can now Swashbuckle with a Rune Arm in your off hand. (Does not count as a Buckler for Buckler-specific abilities). Requires Runearm Proficiency.
   
   
3. Resonant Arms: While Swashbuckling, the Finesseable or Thrown weapon in your main hand deals an additional 2d6/4d6/6d6 Sonic Damage on critical hits.This Sonic damage scales with spellpower.
4. Fast Movement: You run faster. Additional Bard levels increases the speed bonus.
5. CHA/DEX

Remove the cooldown on Elegant Footwork. Remember you have to get missed to activate. And to get missed, you have to risk getting hit. If enemies are on their butts all over, that means the bard is also taking quite the beating, assuming the proc rate is balanced.

Considering the lack of synergy between melee artificer and swashbuckler, I think Cannoneer should have a rank 2 that gives rune arm proficiency if you don't already have an arti splash. Might throw on Magical Training as a rank 2 for Arcane Marauder for completeness, though dropping a couple AP in spellsinger isn't a big deal.

Tier Four

1. On the Mark: Passive +1/2/3 to attack rolls to confirm critical hits and damage on critical hits (before weapon multipliers)
2. Multiselector: Swashbuckling Style II
   
   1. Slap in the Face: While Swashbuckling and wielding nothing in your off hand, activate to deal 1 Bludgeon damage. Damaged enemies can't cast spells for 3/6/9 seconds and are stunned for one second (Perform + d20 saves for the Stun). 18 second cooldown. Costs 10 Spell Points.
   2. Low Blow: While Swashbuckling and wielding a Buckler in your off hand, activate to perform a shield bash with +2 Critical Threat Range and Multiplier. On hit, briefly knock down affected enemy (Perform + d20 saves for the Knockdown). Costs 10 Spell Points.
   3. Loud & Clear:Toggle: While Swashbuckling with an Orb in your off hand, +10 Sonic Spell Power.
   4. Tune Arm/Music Box: Toggle: While Swashbuckling with a Rune Arm in your off hand, your Rune Arm Weapon Imbue deals an additional 1d6 Sonic damage.
   
   
3. Battering Barrage: (2 AP, 2 ranks) While Swashbuckling, critical hits inflict Destruction/Improved Destruction.
4. Wind at my Back: +1 to the Enhancement Bonus of your equipped Throwing Weapons, plus an additional +1 for every five Bard levels.
5. CHA/DEX

On the mark is not worth the action points. +3 to hit and confirm criticals means nearly nothing with all the creep at endgame. Another place to drop in reflex saves?

Slap in the face is not worth a 1 second stun. It probably takes nearly a second to activate it... Make it at least 3 seconds, and if it's on the shorter end, give it the +50% damage bonus type of helpless so it's worth the DPS.

I hope Loud and Clear is a typo and you meant 1000 spell power. No, I didn't typo; not a single source of sonic damage actually has good base damage to be amplified by this. Greater Shout, when the opponent doesn't save, will do 475 more damage on average, and that's admittedly nice, borderline broken when taken at level (not really, sorcs do that damage on every cast, and besides...bards? BROKEN?!!!), but everything else:
Soundburst: 45 more damage.
Sonic Blast: 175 more damage
Resonant Arms, rank 3: 210 more damage. Nice, considering full swashbucklers crit on about a third of their swings. Ok, so maybe 1000 spell power is a little extreme, but seriously. Not 10. Also, positive spell power would be nice, it is literally nowhere else in this tree, and you remember what happened last time you left devotion out of pally/ranger/bard trees...

Tier Five

1. Thread the Needle: While Swashbuckling, +5 Damage while the Precision feat is active.
2. Exploit Weaknesses:While Swashbuckling, every time you damage an enemy but do not critically hit, you gain a stacking +1 Insight Bonus to Critical Threat Range until you successfully critically hit.

Both of these are nice. Also, perfect place for cha/dex to damage, just like everyone else wants

Overall, I think it also needs a bit more bard flavor. Aside from the sonic damage (which could easily be replaced by some other type), you could throw this in rogue or fighter and no one bat an eyelid at the flavor. Not a single ability uses, affects, or is affected by any of your songs.