Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Meat-Head]

I am liking the idea of raw, early Lammannia builds, with extended testing for something like this. I'm hoping it is up for long enough and with enough feedback cycles (and incentives to get people over there) to ship it in a much (much much much much much) better state than U12.

Now here's something we can ALL agree on.

[Thrudh]

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

That is an excellent idea.. I especially like how taking a feat opens up something, but is not required..

Even more choices.

You guys are really on the right track here!

[geoffhanna]

Now that I have regained some of my normal senses (the first blush of Bronco euphoria has passed), I continue to believe even more strongly than ever that Assassin is a poor choice for the halfling racial prestige enhancement. I have several ideas that I believe make way more sense, but first, a bunch of reasons why assassin does not:

• D&D: There is no racial inclination toward Assassin in any D&D source book going back to Chainmail
• Fantasy literature: There is no tradition of halflings as assassins in any book ever (AFAIK anyway but I read a lot)
• Racial synergy: Assassin in DDO is an INT class, but halflings are a DEX race
• Roleplaying: Assassins must be evil. Halflings are jolly! well, all except one
• Balance: Assassin will not balance with other racial PrE's as all of the other proposed racial PrEs will be useful at end game but Assassin will not
• AP synergy: Halfling APs focus on stealth and sneak attacks which are already less useful at end game

Yes I am making that last point twice (with nuances!) because it is really key.

Now lets look at better choices.

• In Tolkien, hobbits are burglars. That is closer to Acrobat than it is to Assassin
• In Forgotten Realms and other D&D fiction, halflings are generally rogues. That is closer to Mechanic or Acrobat than it is to Assassin
• In the 3.5 Players Handbook, the template rogue is a Halfling. Still closer to Acrobat or Mechanic
• In Eberron, halflings are nomads and barbarians. That is not at all close to Assassin. Suitable nomad/barbarian PrCs include ravager, rune-scarred berserker, Prarie Runner, or any nomadic barbarian PrC
• In D&D 3.0 and in D&D 3.5 there is already a halfling-preferred Prestige Class: Halfling Outrider!

Admittedly, adding an all-new PrE is possibly more work than just re-using one that already exists. But this is about big plans, right? Also, the Halfling Outrider in particular is a tougher fit since we don't have mounts, although one suspects that the Artificer companion style of solution could be re-used here too.

If we may only select from existing PrEs, Acrobat is a better fit than Assassin, especially if Acrobat were modified to allow quarterstaff as a finesse weapon that does damage based on DEX modifier.

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?

[Thrudh]

Okay, now I'm getting a little worried.

I've only played since shortly after F2P, but the power creep in this game is getting out of hand. If new content continues to be tuned to people who are willing to do whatever it takes for spell DCs in the 40s, I get worried about whether this new enhancement system will move the far edge of the power curve even further away from people who play less than 8 hours a day. I don't want to have to grind my face off on every character and reduce the flexibility and solo ability of my characters to even get into new content. I've already seen talk about the possibilities of making a pale master with the extra DCs, SP, and SLA from archmage.

My biggest concern is that this flexibility, while attractive, is going to result in a few combinations that are so much more powerful than anything else that we will end up just a handful of cookie cutter builds dominating the game. Oh, your FBIII doesn't have kensai I and Crit Rage Replacement II? Gimp. Your FvS doesn't have Radiant Servant and Angel of Vengeance? Reroll.

Character build has nothing to do with grinding and 8 hour a day players.

[grodon9999]

The solution to the SD WF\dwarf caster issuse is easily sovled and not by stances locking out or raising the cost of spell casting.

Add feat requirements.

T1: shield prof

T2: med armor prof

T3: tower shield prof (possibly bab 15?)

Basicly a caster would have to spend 3 feats or splash 1 fighter to get to T3 defender.

I think that this plus the AP cost will make going this route have enough drawbacks to have it be viable yet not a must have choice for casters.

no need to re-invent the wheel, it already has feat requirements.

[Thrudh]

Tree stuff -> Kensai 1 -> Power Surge Branch with multiple tiers with larger ones requiring higher kensai tiers...mostly because all these PrE abilities can all be branches so you could get more of the stuff you want for your particular build and less of the other stuff...Kensai could have extra ki on hit branch, power surge branch, extra damage on hit branch, extra to hit branch, extra action boost branch, and extra combat dc branch for example...

OOh.. that's awesome... Those branches are a great idea..

[Cyr]

OOh.. that's awesome... Those branches are a great idea..

I herby evoke the Thrudh + Cyr precedence which states that whenever we both think something is a great idea the devs must make it so.

[Bladedge]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

"To look upon one is to see an instument of destruction, a hartless killing machine a siege engine in the shape of man." - Races of Ebberon

Humm that does not sound like something that wants to defend the castle, more like take over the castle, burn it to the ground after everyone inside is dead.

When I read warforged I picture a construct built for killing the tank defenders. More of a kill or be killed but diffidently not defend and hold the line.

Really was looking forward to a more of a Barbarian Berserker/DPS enhancements for the warforged, and not tankish or defender enhancements.

[slimkj]

But I agree with Shade, this potential god-combo of caster with a stalwart PRE shouldn't be feasible. it's gotta be something that you really would gimp your toon doing.

Though I also think it probably won't make it in-game, I really don't think it's the big deal some are worried about. It's likely going to be too costly to take all the lines you want and SD too - hell, I don't have enough AP on my casters as is. Say you stretch and can afford the AP for SD I - that's 10% HP isn't it? 10% of ~450 HP is only ~45 more HP. Hardly game breaking. DR at SD I is less powerful than item-based DR available too iirc.

You'd probably have to give up a whole elemental lines worth of AP, at least, to get it, I'm guessing, which is a fair trade off (overall current balance vs melee notwithstanding) if you want to sink some of your allotment into defense rather than offense.

[voodoogroves]

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?

As much as it pains me to suggest hafllings shouldn't be assassins, I agree.

Drow (scorpion wraith) makes more sense as assassin. Halflings maybe snag tempest then. Or Pale Master.

[Thrudh]

I herby evoke the Thrudh + Cyr precedence which states that whenever we both think something is a great idea the devs must make it so.

LOL... That's very true... We rarely agree on anything, but when we do, you KNOW it's a solid idea!

[Thrudh]

Though I also think it probably won't make it in-game, I really don't think it's the big deal some are worried about. It's likely going to be too costly to take all the lines you want and SD too - hell, I don't have enough AP on my casters as is. Say you stretch and can afford the AP for SD I - that's 10% HP isn't it? 10% of ~450 HP is only ~45 more HP. Hardly game breaking. DR at SD I is less powerful than item-based DR available too iirc.

You'd probably have to give up a whole elemental lines worth of AP, at least, to get it, I'm guessing, which is a fair trade off (overall current balance vs melee notwithstanding) if you want to sink some of your allotment into defense rather than offense.

Good point.

[Havok.cry]

When you say halflings don't fit assassin because they are a dex race, I'm assuming your not thinking about the TWF that takes dex to get. When you claim they don't fit for flavor reasons I should point out the flavor of their enhancments already has them inclined to stab you in the back while your not looking. When I see their stats it makes me think rogue, because rogues more easily overcome penalties to strength than any other class. When you say acrobat, a thf flavored prestige, I look at the str penalty and wonder what the heck your thinking.

[Meat-Head]

Good point.

Almost as good as when I broke it down in post #495. :P

[Cyr]

Okay more suggestions for tree lines of PrE's like the Kensai one I talked about earlier...

Assassin branches into lines for poisons (which are reworked to be good), extra sneak damage, assassinate line (assassinate ability for tier 1, current tier 3 vorpal for tier 2, and vorpal as the actual weapon proc for tier 3), extra assassinate DC (off of the assassinate tier one branch), save versus poison , skills (hide/move/bluff).

Shintao branches into lines for smiting tainted creatures, skills (diplo/heal/intim), protection from tainted (mostly improved stacking with other stuff new abilties), damage reduction bypass (byshek, silver, cold iron...), dismissial line, and a lockdown/stun line. That one should make shintao alot cheaper for most people as they would skip out on alot of it.

Ninja spy branches into lines for short sword stuff, special ki abilities (shadow fade for tier 1, walk on water for tier 2, and something new for tier 3), skills (hide/move/balance), sneaking (movement speed/passive ki), and sneak attack damage.

Tempest branches into lines for shield bonus when twf, attack penalty reduction when twf, extra offhand/double strike chance when twf.

AA branches into lines for conjuring arrows (more stuff then now like flaming/shock/holy/whatever arrows), imbued arrows, and true striking (clicky reduced cooldown and improved power with more tiers ie new stuff).

Angel of Vengeance branches into for aura(different branches for saves, ac, SR, and attacks), crown (different branches for proc rate, dr reduction, light damage guard, light damage vulnerbiliy, and alignment damage vulnerbility), summoned archon(improves archon along various branches such as RoF and light damage), and a line for spell damage (untyped, fire, and alignment based).

You get the basic idea...some of the weaker lines would have some more options to really pump them up while some of the better pre's would have so many lines that to have everything would be rather costly (like Angel of Vengeance which is really outstanding right now)

[bhgiant]

Okay more suggestions for tree lines of PrE's like the Kensai one I talked about earlier...

Assassin branches into lines for poisons (which are reworked to be good), extra sneak damage, assassinate line (assassinate ability for tier 1, current tier 3 vorpal for tier 2, and vorpal as the actual weapon proc for tier 3), extra assassinate DC (off of the assassinate tier one branch), save versus poison , skills (hide/move/bluff).

Shintao branches into lines for smiting tainted creatures, skills (diplo/heal/intim), protection from tainted (mostly improved stacking with other stuff new abilties), damage reduction bypass (byshek, silver, cold iron...), dismissial line, and a lockdown/stun line. That one should make shintao alot cheaper for most people as they would skip out on alot of it.

Ninja spy branches into lines for short sword stuff, special ki abilities (shadow fade for tier 1, walk on water for tier 2, and something new for tier 3), skills (hide/move/balance), sneaking (movement speed/passive ki), and sneak attack damage.

Tempest branches into lines for shield bonus when twf, attack penalty reduction when twf, extra offhand/double strike chance when twf.

AA branches into lines for conjuring arrows (more stuff then now like flaming/shock/holy/whatever arrows), imbued arrows, and true striking (clicky reduced cooldown and improved power with more tiers ie new stuff).

Angel of Vengeance branches into for aura(different branches for saves, ac, SR, and attacks), crown (different branches for proc rate, dr reduction, light damage guard, light damage vulnerbiliy, and alignment damage vulnerbility), summoned archon(improves archon along various branches such as RoF and light damage), and a line for spell damage (untyped, fire, and alignment based).

You get the basic idea...some of the weaker lines would have some more options to really pump them up while some of the better pre's would have so many lines that to have everything would be rather costly (like Angel of Vengeance which is really outstanding right now)

This I like. I really really like.

[geoffhanna]

When you say halflings don't fit assassin because they are a dex race, I'm assuming your not thinking about the TWF that takes dex to get. When you claim they don't fit for flavor reasons I should point out the flavor of their enhancments already has them inclined to stab you in the back while your not looking. When I see their stats it makes me think rogue, because rogues more easily overcome penalties to strength than any other class. When you say acrobat, a thf flavored prestige, I look at the str penalty and wonder what the heck your thinking.

I am not thinking about the TWF requirement. Halflings can get a 20 starting dex, it is their very best thing, but only 17 is needed for TWF. Compare that to an elven INT 20 wizard or a horc STR 20 melee.

The point about the backstabbing is that it is already not helpful in endgame except in limited use versus trash. More backstabbing is not an improvement.

Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

There is more but I have to go to work. Later.

[Razcar]

Any of these would be far better and more suitable than Assassin, which just feels like a tack-on added only because all the other races are getting a PrE, and hey, halflings are backstabbers right?

Oh come on. Finally something to make Halflings viable not only for role players, butterfly chasers and fluff. Finally. And you dis it?

[Cyr]

Acrobat is not perfect, you are right. But it is better than Assassin.

There is more but I have to go to work. Later.

Assassin >> Acrobat.

[Missing_Minds]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

What happened to Juggernaut? An "unstoppable juggernaut" to me is very much a tank.

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

Interesting. I am intrigued.