Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is all sounding outstanding.

One more suggestion. There are a small number of players who will NOT have any idea how to get their toons back to where they were before this change.

Besides excellent new enhancement descriptions that will help the large majority, is there any thought into helping those who dont have any idea so they dont become disfranchised and leave the game?

Madfloyd, may I suggest adding a few more paths so those types will be happy.

Some people just arent good character builders.

[Eladrin]

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:

5 Points Spent: +2 shield bonus when dual wielding
10 Points Spent: Tempest I, +10% off hand attacks, Scimitars are treated as light weapons and can be finessed.
15 Points Spent: +3 shield bonus when dual wielding
20 Points Spent: Tempest II, +10% off hand attacks, Deflect Arrows while dual wielding
15 Points Spent: +4 shield bonus when dual wielding
30 Points Spent: Tempest III, +5% doublestrike when dual wielding
41 Points Spent: Dervish - Full ability score bonus for damage on off hand

(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

[grodon9999]

(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

[Aelonwy]

First off I must say this is the most back and forth communication I have seen between the devs and players since I began playing this game almost 2 1/2 yrs ago. Not only does this renew my faith that spending money here was a wise decision, it once again makes me proud to play DDO.

Secondly, some questions....

1. What happened to class enhancements that are not tied to any particular PrE?

2. A little confused from your mockup explanation in particular this portion...

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Does this mean each character will still be limited to 3PrEs? So for instance an Elven 14Bard/6Fighter would be limited to AA/Spellsinger/Longbow Kensai for instance. Or AA/Spellsinger/Virtuoso. Assuming of course having the appropriate number of APs to do it at all.

3. Final question.

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

This is somewhat unclear, would this be like halfling cunning or guile for instance and each time you add to the enhancement it takes you up another rank in that particular enhancment?

[Coldin]

Reminds me a lot of the skill trees I see in SWTOR, but with the added free enhancements just for going so high up a tree.

[Havok.cry]

Of course, going kensai/mechanic/battle engineer also means you're using up a lot of action points for those three specialties.

I kind of feel like this new system is to help players not make incredibly awful builds, because it will give them direction to go. Also might buff up all existing enhancements so they're more meaningful.

Oh I agree, and for the most part I'm cleaning up my drool like everyone else. But, I figure I should get my worries out there, so my fears can be allayed, the reasons "it should be anyway" explained, or me told why I'm being dumb and not looking at it right. So far this is my only worry with the whole project.

[Thrudh]

I would hope so because those changes are awful. 30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong.

I think you're reading that wrong... You get those benefits for FREE after you've spent 30 APs in the Tempest tree (getting a bunch of other stuff with those 30 points).

[Eladrin]

I would hope so because those changes are awful. 30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong.

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, Slashing Blades, and A Thousand Cuts.

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

[TDarkchylde]

So, the way I'm looking at this, all the enhancements will be tied into trees, and then by multiclassing, you can remove one of the "base" class's trees for one of the "secondary" class's trees.

That's all fine and dandy, but what about some enhancements for which only one or two levels are taken, say 2 Rogue on most splits. We'd have to remove an entire tree of other stuff from the main class to get access to the stuff from the splash (sneak attack damage +3, Wand and Scroll 1)?

What if the build uses stuff from multiple trees in the main class (let's say Improved Intim, Fighter Toughness and Fighter Strength end up in three different Fighter trees) - we'd have to lose access to one of those lines to pick up one or two things in a splash class tree?

If it's going to come out anything like I'm saying, DO NOT WANT!

[Havok.cry]

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

Those are free bonuses for spend AP on other stuff.

[Phemt81]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Awesome!!!

Guys, don't misunderstand the devs; improving the User Interface won't change the way we take enhancements or the Action Points system. Unless they want to modify that too, but it's a completely different, separate task.

You know why developers love the tree thing? Cause trees look a bit like broccoli!

[dkyle]

The layout looks functional and interesting.

The one thing about this I don’t like and hope I am wrong is by the looks of it multi-classed character could be getting a big nerf. Unless I am understating this wrong a multi-class character can no longer have 2+ prestige classes.

From the looks of it, all characters, multiclass or not, can have three prestige classes. The big benefit of multiclassing is that you get to choose the best PrEs out of your classes for those three. If someone wants to build a max DPS Melee, a pure Fighter gets Kensai, but the other two are likely to be mostly dead weight for him. By multiclassing, say, Ranger, and/or Barbarian, he gets to swap out SD and PDK for Tempest and Frenzied Berserker.

I have three concerns:

1. Racial PrE trees, if they work like Elves with AA do, seem likely to be way more powerful than gaining access via multiclassing. I'm concerned that specific Race+Pure Class combos will be far and away the most obvious optimums. I'd say that Racial PrEs should cap at around what a level 12 of that class would get, but that would nerf Elven AAs. Perhaps compress the existing AA line down to level 12, for Ranger AAs, make Slaying Arrows scale with character level (so equal damage to current at level 20), then add more goodies on the high end? Ranger AAs could certainly use a boost, anyway.

2. Melee PrEs for a specific class generally focus on very separate things. Combining them together makes for more versatility, but not likely higher DPS, or Tanking capability, or whatever. Multiclassing (or Racial PrEs) would be required to stack, say, two DPS PrEs. Caster PrEs, especially Pale Master and Archmage, do very similar things (increase DCs, damage, etc.). A Pure Wizard with both Pale Master and Archmage is going to be capable of huge necro DCs, just by stacking the PrEs he comes with as a pure Wizard. Essentially, unless the enhancements are radically changed, this looks like a fairely neutral change for melee, but a huge boost for Wizards, and possibly other casters. One question: are the Sorc Savants going to be rolled into a single tree? Otherwise, there's four of them, plus another promised (Acolyte of the Skin). Will there be 5 available trees to pure Sorcs, but only three can be chosen to put APs into? Seems kind of contrary to the intention of the Savant PrEs to potentially be 3 different Savants all at the same time.

3. The "APs spent" requirement seems steep, and potentially confusing for new players. While the APs spent requirement, currently, only occasionally gets in the way (mostly for Light Monks), it seems likely to be a major obstacle here. Haste boost seems likely to be part of the Acrobat tree, for example. Is it likely that the top tier Haste Boost will require extensive investment in the Acrobat tree?

[grodon9999]

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, and A Thousand Cuts.

Thanks, I was reading it wrong.

Being wrong is nice sometimes

[Cyr]

That's the tree related capstone. Your current Tier 3 is at 30 points (level 18 required).

Tempest, for instance, has the following "granted" abilities currently:


(Insert subject to change disclaimer here.)

Interesting. I see you took our advice on the full offhand damage thing. I wonder if you have examined how these things look side by side yet though. Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase. I would suggest spreading out the good benefits from these a little more on the middle steps. Something like 5% offhand strikes for 5, Full Tempest 1 for ten (plus the scimitar thing), 5% more offhand at 15, Full tempest 2 (plus the deflect arrows thing) at 20, 2.5% double strike at 25, Full tempest 3 at 30, and dervish at cap...maybe dervish is a little light compared to a full PrE tier?

[barryman5000]

0 AP and no feats.

You get these automatically for spending points in the Tempest Tree, taking things like Action Boost: Haste, Two Weapon Accuracy, Slashing Blades, and A Thousand Cuts.

Edit: We've taken a bunch of the Dervish abilities and merged them into the Tempest tree. They were similar enough in nature.

Stop name dropping. It makes me anxious.

[grodon9999]

Interesting. I see you took our advice on the full offhand damage thing. I wonder if you have examined how these things look side by side yet though. Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase. I would suggest spreading out the good benefits from these a little more on the middle steps. Something like 5% offhand strikes for 5, Full Tempest 1 for ten (plus the scimitar thing), 5% more offhand at 15, Full tempest 2 (plus the deflect arrows thing) at 20, 2.5% double strike at 25, Full tempest 3 at 30, and dervish at cap...maybe dervish is a little light compared to a full PrE tier?

It's still not worth going pure

I don't want to get bogged down on hypothetical details, but expect a dissertation when more is revealed

[Thrudh]

What if the build uses stuff from multiple trees in the main class (let's say Improved Intim, Fighter Toughness and Fighter Strength end up in three different Fighter trees) - we'd have to lose access to one of those lines to pick up one or two things in a splash class tree?

I'm guessing things like Fighter Strength and Toughness will be in all 3 fighter trees.

[LordRavnos]

30 AP for what now costs 6? Am I reading that wrong?

I think I am . . . is it you get all that stuff once you spend 30 APs on other stuff?

you are indeed reading wrong, currently its NOT 6 AP, you have to include all the costs of the AP you need to spend to unlock the PrEs currently. Since its level 18 to get tier 3 PrEs atm, generally thats 60+ AP you spend to access the top tier, after the change its going to be 30 in the tree, and level 18, and the rest spent wherever you want. I imagine( read hope) that this will remove the choices at times of Improved Heal, and other stuff that people only take to get the PrEs atm.

Edit: Holy **** I am slow

[grodon9999]

Stop name dropping. It makes me anxious.

he likes torturing me, it HAD to be RANGER details didn't it?

[Thrudh]

Pretty much no one cares about the shield bonus while dual wielding middle step increase.

I care about the shield bonus. Although I think while we're working on the PrEs, we should make that an untyped bonus... (maybe lower it by 1 to 1,2,3)