Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[voodoogroves]

Like what I referred to earlier. 80 AP and 200 AP worth of good stuff to spend it on - thus the dilema.

If the requirements for racial defender simply make it so a WF FvS would be spread far too thin trying to make an AoV + Defender that can DOT its way out of a paper bag, then theres your balance.

Otherwise Angel of Defense is going to rule this game. (they already tank raid bosses, without defender)

If they do this right, melee will gain ground on casters as far as balance is concerned.

Exactly. Kill them with kindness.

[Vargouille]

Please, keep the action points system. Trees would eat up customizing possibilities. I see that it makes it easier for a newbie to make a cookie cutter build

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

[BoBo2020]

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

I think that the current list of racial unlock trees were:

Dwarf: Stalwart Defender
Warforged: Stalwart Defender
Halfling: Assassin
Half-Orc: Ravager
Elf: Arcane Archer
Drow: Tempest
Human: Pick one. (Slightly higher investment in Racial tree required to unlock.)
Half-Elf: Arcane Archer, Human, Elf (Yes, in our current plan they can unlock racial trees from the other races if desired. They might be able to go Half-Elf tree -> Human tree -> Any PrE through gargantuan AP expenditures.)

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

MF

I really like where this is going - sounds like a massive improvement to both interface and customization.

With this in mind, I would like to throw out a long shot - multiclass PrEs.

Multiclassed characters sometimes get the short end of the stick and PrEs that require class combinations could be pretty exciting and fun without being overpowered.

For example:

Mystic theurge might require at least 2 spell casting classes.

A bladesinger might be restrcited to elves and half elves with a melee class and an arcane class.

A spell sword might require an arcane and melee combo.

Eldritch knight might require an arcane class and fighter/paladin.

Gladiator might require barbarian and another melee class.

Exotic Weapon Master might require human and either fighter or rogue and the monkey grip feat, etc...

[Cyr]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

I would greatly prefer that warforged gain something uber for melee while not also uber for arcane casters if a primary goal of this pass really is to help out with balance as opposed to flavor being the driving factor.

I would prefer Kensai for warforged. It does almost nothing for arcanes, but is great for melee toons.

[BoBo2020]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

You might consider increasing the number of action points from 4 per level to 5 per level.

[grodon9999]

I have a lvl 20 Drow Assassin. I wouldn't mind 100% off-hand proc and extra 5% of double strike that stacks with my Opportunist feat . The +2 to hit would be welcome as well.

You have enough feat room for Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack, and a Tempest III prereq?

keep dreaming

[Cyr]

You might consider increasing the number of action points from 4 per level to 5 per level.

I would like to second this general statement. Providing more AP per level at this time would be a good way to provide more granularity for enhancements...some really are not worth one point while others are more like 1.5 points now.

[bhgiant]

Yeah, that would be great if the requirement was not dodge, mobility, and spring attack.

Hence the synergy issues.

If you think about it, making those feats a requirement doesn't make sense, at least as a Drow class prestige. Ranger gets the TWF line for free so it's not a big deal. but on a Drow there's not enough feats to take the TWF feat line and the Tempest feat prereq's. I am thinking the feats (or some) would be waved at the expense of higher AP costs, but, we'll just have to wait and see.

I am hoping this quote...

Some of the tree enhancements will have feat prereqs, (i.e. can't get Improved Power Attack without Power Attack...) but we're trying to keep the specific requirements of enhancements as simple to understand as possible.

...will mean the feat requirements that DON'T make sense (tempest feats prerequs never really made sense to me) will go away. But that's just me crossing my fingers.

Edit: And a partial confirm .

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

[MaxwellEdison]

@Eladrin

On the subject of PrE stacking. Is the current thinking to allow a Dwarven Paladin simultaneous use of DoS and SD, or are you planning on allowing only one defensive stance at a time?

[Vargouille]

Also, feats will surely be needed to get some prestiges. You might think that Dwarf ranger AA SD could happen, but you're wrong. I doubt you could fit it all in considering feats. Since this is still only in clouds, they will watch how some things fit. After all, this is now their main focus.

We're considering relaxing the feat requirements. Specific enhancements within a PRE may require a feat (e.g. getting Supreme Cleave, an enhancement by itself, requires Cleave), but Frenzied Berserker: Tier III may be achievable without taking Cleave at all.

[Coldin]

Customization of builds remains super important. Amongst other previously stated goals, we hope for this overall change to increase the number of viable build options, not reduce them.

Current thinking is to keep action points. Trees and action points can live together in harmony.

Makes sense to me. Especially if the overall goal is to make most enhancements cost 1 or 2 point. Then each action point moves you up further up a tree.

[grodon9999]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

But the healing penalties in the modern game have really killed their viability. When you're going through literally hundreds of hjeal-scrolls a raid having a WF stalwart is just not practical.

If you make the defensive aspects that WF and dorfs can bring to the table viable in ALL levels of play this might be viable, but as it is now it is not.

Make the AC and DR worth something in the hardest levels, even epic LOB, and you might be cooking with gas, as it is now the best options are some silly earth-stance builds with such broken levels of healing amplification it screams "nerf meh!"

[Rydlic]

I just want to pipe in and say one thing:
We are making assumptions on current state of PRE's. We do not know what Feat(s) will be required on the change pass, what action points are going to be needed per tier or how it will even look

I reserve making any assumptions until I can see a mock up of how it will try to look, even a rough sketch that has a huge diclaimer of "Not in anyway finished". Just to get an idea of how it will be in the future. I will not base this on current standings as I have seen things in the game changed way too many times to guess with so little info.

[voodoogroves]

You have enough feat room for Dodge, mobility, Spring Attack, and a Tempest III prereq?

keep dreaming

That kind of choice though - that's goodness. Splash 2 for feats, lose the capstone, etc.

TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

That's about the best you could do ... and you'd only get Tempst 2 and be missing PA.


Sounds fair.

[dkyle]

They do have the same favored class, and the Warforged were originally built to act as "tanks" in the war.

Yeah, I think it's OK. Dwarves and WF are pretty radically different as tanks, and serve different purposes. I'm not sure what would be a better fit. Most I could think of would be Frenzied Berserker, as a Juggernaut stand-in.

[Emili]

That still doesn't sound too broken to me. I'm all for it.

Drow: tempest/assassin = 20% extra SA on off hand = sick DPS. Madstoned and becomes THE king or Rogues.

18 Rogue/2 Monk feated: TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Power Attack, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack ... (is a drow) TR twice as a monk prior? 16 17 14 12 10 10 (then add +2 and 3 tomes) all levels up in str and sub Past life monk for PA and stay with wraps. Can you say SUPER QUICK!

[Cyr]

I am hoping this quote...

...will mean the feat requirements that DON'T make sense (tempest feats prerequs never really made sense to me) will go away. But that's just me crossing my fingers.

Yes, we are working with a considerable lack of knowledge as to what this system is really envisioned to look like at this point so it is hard to give pointed feedback.

I agree if tempest had no feat pre-reqs (and was not costed very high AP wise for a drow) then it would be more interesting for rogue drow builds.

[twiliteslayer02]

Basically am holding my opinions, not sure at all if the skill treee thing is good for ddo.

essentially we need some idea of what its gonna look like, to couple with the info you've given so far, even a hand drawn mockup would go far into helping at least me figure out what impact this is going to make.

and having to respeckj all of my toons ( over 20) isnt a really encouraging thing to face. At least not without a better idea of exactly what you have in mind.

[Calebro]

I like what I'm seeing from a conceptual standpoint from every Dev post in this thread. But some of the concerns that have been noted are completely valid. We simply need more specific information before we can give any true feedback on the issue.
In concept this all sounds wonderful. In practice it may not be. As someone correctly stated, the devil is in the details.

Please keep us posted as to where you're heading on this so that we may more fully understand the possible changes and can offer suggestions and concerns where they may be appropriate.

[grodon9999]

That kind of choice though - that's goodness. Splash 2 for feats, lose the capstone, etc.

TxF, ITxF, GTxF, Toughness, Improved Crit, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack

That's about the best you could do ... and you'd only get Tempst 2 and be missing PA.


Sounds fair.

13/6/1 builds or 12/6/2 builds would be able to take to full Tier III tempest. There's just no way you could do it on a pure 20 rogue without gimping yourself.