Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Cyr]

Okay so how I am interperting that chart is...

The bottom row is actually 'pre' like bonuses that are granted based upon how much you have spent in that 'tab'.

The next row up is the first actual row.

Things with an arrow mean you need to have purchased where the arrow is pointing from (not sure if this means all the stages of it like 5 sneak attack damage or whatever or just one tier of it).

The ones without arrows do not require specific things purchased, but do require a total number of points spent in that 'tab' depending upon which row they are on.

Is that an accurate description of what I am seeing or did I mess something up Mad?

[oradafu]

Currently, Assassins are better than Acrobats. I don't even see that changing when Acrobat III is added, and I'm a person who prefers Acrobat over Assassin. Acrobats would be a good Halfling racial prestige since it would create the goto race for AC builds (if AC were to be fixed). However, it is a very poor choice not because Assassin is superior to Acrobat, but because Acrobat is dependent on Evasion whereas Assassin doesn't depend on anything (unarmed assassins for example).

As I stated earlier, I would have liked to seen more unique/original Racial prestige classes, such as the Luckstealer for Halflings. If the Devs were to pick existing prestige classes, Assassin seems appropriate since Halflings gets a bonus in flanking and sneak attack, which just screams assassin.

....

Now to more generic thoughts about the tinkering of Enhancements and Prestige classes... With the recent comments, I'm wondering if the Devs are moving to a more open Prestige class system, similar to 3.5. Are they going to open up some of the prestige classes so you can qualify for them even if you don't have the current class they are attached to in the game? For example, the Purple Dragon Knight prestige class is currently an undeveloped Fighter class, but in the 3.5 rules Paladins could also choose the Prestige. I'm thinking that this is probably a bit much (especially since Madfloyd just posted a mockup while I was typing this), although it does seem to fit into the idea that they have Humans (and Half-Elves).

[Havok.cry]

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Thank you for the mock up. It is much appreciated. This part here is what gets me though. This is the "locking someone into a tree" that many of us are worried about. At least it seems this way. I hope in practice It will not. Is there any chance for general non-path class enhancments? (example: would you have to go to a specific tree for wizards spell damage enhancments?) This seems very much like WoW's talent trees.

[barryman5000]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.

Its saying that if you want to be the best rogue acrobat then you spend your points in the acrobat tree. You can still grab sneak attack accuracy (or something like it) from another tree. This is supposed to be a limiting factor so that nobody gets all the good enhancements and all 3 prestiges for a class without some sort of sacrifice.

It also makes it so that previously horrible prerequisite enhancements may not have to be taken and instead you can choose what you want as long as it is withing the correct prestige's tree. That right there is win-win and only increases choices.

[bradleyforrest]

Can't say I like the idea of having action points spent requirements replaced with "spent in tree". Sounds like it will force more of a cookie cutter approach to building your enhancements.

Not a fan of the idea at all. Especially because what will no doubt happening is that you have to take enhancements that you consider worthless to get to certain other ones, which already happens to some degree with the prestige requirements (screw you improved heal!! lol)

Not a fan at all if it leads to more cookie cutter builds.

Yeah, I'm concerned by this as well. I foresee a lot of wasted AP in here. Many of the "Improved Skill" enhancements are garbage.

[MadFloyd]

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

[grodon9999]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

ETA as to when we'll see SOMETHING on Lamania?

[MadFloyd]

Okay so how I am interperting that chart is...

The bottom row is actually 'pre' like bonuses that are granted based upon how much you have spent in that 'tab'.

The next row up is the first actual row.

Things with an arrow mean you need to have purchased where the arrow is pointing from (not sure if this means all the stages of it like 5 sneak attack damage or whatever or just one tier of it).

The ones without arrows do not require specific things purchased, but do require a total number of points spent in that 'tab' depending upon which row they are on.

Is that an accurate description of what I am seeing or did I mess something up Mad?

You got it right.

[voodoogroves]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Drool

[Cyr]

You got it right.

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?

I assume the different steps there are something fairly similar to the junk I wrote out about breaking up the PrEs? I am having trouble figuring out what else they could be, but am also then confused about what the 'free' PrE bonus from having X purchased would grant. Edit: I guess some of them could be existing mostly junk enhancements, but really that would be alot of junk...

Then onto the racial tab/s. I am confused if there are two tabs here, one general tab and one racial PrE tab or if the general racial tab is the PrE tab? If it is not what type of bonuses are being considered along that general racial PrE tab?

Edit: Oh yeah and although I am pretty certain of this one, but others might not this does indeed mean that we could have points spent in 4 PrE trees right?

[Avidus]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

This sounds a little ambitious...

Perhaps a ballpark time frame would make it sound more reasonable? Were you (by you I mean all of the devs and such not just Madfloyd) thinking update 13 or 14? 16? 18? sometime this year or is this still incredibly early and you really just don't know how long it's going to take?

Overall I am liking what I am reading in this thread. Of course change is scary but, the current enhancement / feat UI is terrible and the game will be better off with a revamp.

Is there any reason Warforged are getting SD? Way back the plan was for them to be given Warforged Juggernaught was is not?

[barryman5000]

Drool

*grabs a towel*

I only just cleaned my drool up and you look like you could use this.

[Thrudh]

Absolutely amazing description. I was worried about the tree design but that pic and your explanation put alot of my fears to rest.

Hate to ask, but how many pre's are you looking at being done from this reset?

Yep, I think it looks great as well!

[Havok.cry]

Its saying that if you want to be the best rogue acrobat then you spend your points in the acrobat tree. You can still grab sneak attack accuracy (or something like it) from another tree. This is supposed to be a limiting factor so that nobody gets all the good enhancements and all 3 prestiges for a class without some sort of sacrifice.

It also makes it so that previously horrible prerequisite enhancements may not have to be taken and instead you can choose what you want as long as it is withing the correct prestige's tree. That right there is win-win and only increases choices.

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

[Coldin]

So here is the mockup that was promised.

To make it easier to digest, I’ve copy-pasted a section direct from Eladrin’s spec below. Again, all of this is subject to change.

In practice, the trees will probably look different, with more sideways arrows, etc but it should give you a pretty good idea of what we have in mind.

A single classed character will have their racial tree and the three trees that are associated with their class displayed. These trees correspond to the three Prestige Enhancement lines tied to the class.

A multiclassed character can change a class enhancement tree with 0 points spent in it to a different class tree that is available to them using the drop down menus. For example, if this character multiclassed into Wizard, it could change the Rogue: Thief-Acrobat tree into Wizard: Archmage, Wizard: Pale Master, or Wizard: Wild Mage. Trees that have points spent in them cannot be changed to other trees. The racial tree cannot be swapped out for a different one.

Each race will have an enhancement that adds another specific enhancement tree to the character’s available list of trees. Elves and Half-Elves, for instance, gain access to the Arcane Archer tree if they take the racial enhancement to unlock it. Dwarves gain access to Stalwart Defender. The player can choose to unlock the tree and then not use it, if they so desire. Trees unlocked in this way use the character’s total character level instead of class level for prerequisites and effects.

Initially, players will have the bottom row of enhancements available to them. As players spend enhancement points within the current tree, additional tiers of enhancements will become available to them. Enhancements will no longer have a “total action points spent” prerequisite, this is replaced by a “total action points spent in this tree” prerequisite, and is defined by the tier the enhancement is on. (5 * [Tier of Enhancement – 1])

Most enhancements will be able to be selected multiple times – the player will do this by selecting the same enhancement repeatedly, incrementing the number of times it has been taken, giving greater effects, up to a limit. (For example, Sneak Attack Damage can be taken 5 times.) High tiers of most enhancements will have class level requirements.

Enhancements that are unavailable to the player are greyed out. Enhancements can still have feat or class level prerequisites – if a player does not meet these prerequisites, a red border or lock display is added to the icon. This should not be subtle, it should be absolutely clear to the player that there’s something wrong here, and they need to do something if they want this enhancement. Players can figure out what requirements they’re missing by viewing the tooltip.

Some enhancements have other enhancements as a prerequisites chain. These are shown in the mockup with arrows in between them. Knife Attack leads to Knife Damage, which then leads to Knife Specialization. An enhancement that has another as a prerequisite cannot have a rank higher than its prerequisite, so to get Knife Damage III, the player must have Knife Attack III. To get Knife Spec IV, the player must have both Knife Attack IV and Knife Damage IV. Most enhancements cost 1 Action Point. Rare ones will cost more. Costs do not increase each time you take an enhancement.

Each enhancement tree will have a line of enhancements that are automatically granted to the character based on the number of points spent in that tree. For example, when a character puts any 10 points in the Assassin tree, they will gain the Assassin I enhancement if they meet all other prerequisites. (Rogue level 6 in this case.) If they do not meet the prerequisites, then they will NOT gain the enhancement until they do. (Any time a player modifies their feats or gains a level, we’ll have to check access to the auto-granted enhancements.) These are shown in the mockup as the horizontal row of enhancements beneath the tree name.

Players should be able to spend action points anywhere in the world by opening up the Enhancements UI, without needing to seek out a trainer. Enhancements can be reset on a tree-by-tree basis using the “Reset Enhancements” button near the bottom of each pane, which is only available in public areas. This has a platinum cost associated with it based on the number of points currently spent in the tree.

So, say as a Drow Fighter 12 / Rogue 8, I could have my Racial Tree, and then a Kensai, Assassin, and Tempest tree?

I'm assuming that each Class tree will be related to it's PREs. Like the Rogue class trees will be Assassin, Mechanic, Thief-Acrobat. Access to the racial prestige tree just lets you swap one of those out if you want.


Still sounds good to me. All these changes are probably really far down the line though, aren't they?

[Thrudh]

Ideally, all of them, but we'll see how it goes.

Wow... What timeline we talking about?

The only bad thing about this kind of announcement is that I now have to put a couple of my TRs on hold until I figure out what the heck my new builds are going to be...

[Meat-Head]

Am I seeing that you can have points spent in 4 PrEs total including racial? Or will there be no limit to number of trees that open up (assuming you qualify with class etc..) and there are only 4 on the example cuz that dude is a pure rogue halfling?


This is an important question because it's related to people being worried about being "locked into trees".


I for one like what I see so far.

Keep the info coming. SOOOO nice to get the communication.

[Thrudh]

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

That would be bad, but maybe all 3 of the class PrEs have the same basic enhancements at the bottom. I would assume most of the enhancements that are "general" now would remain available no matter what PrE you chose.

[Coldin]

Yes, and that is pretty much what we said we didn't want. Before there was a ton of general enhancements that you could take within your class, without being on a specific path. This looks like now our paths are chosen for us and we are locked out of getting. Those sneak attack AP you wanted on your acrobat, sorry they are 3 teirs up in the assassin tree, best of luck. Got a rogue 6 arti 6 fight 8 repeater build. Sorry but you have the kensai tree, the mechanic tree and the battle engineer tree, and your locked out of 2/3 of the beginning enhancements of all 3 of your classes.

Of course, going kensai/mechanic/battle engineer also means you're using up a lot of action points for those three specialties.

I kind of feel like this new system is to help players not make incredibly awful builds, because it will give them direction to go. Also might buff up all existing enhancements so they're more meaningful.

[Havok.cry]

Okay then I have to ask the specific questions. What is the 41 supposed to be? Is that our current tier 3 PrE?

80 AP points at 20.... I bet 41 is that pre's capstone.