Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Snarglefrump]

Here's how I'd like to see the enhancements UI work:

• Include a search box so I can quickly find the enhancement I'm look for.
• When I select an enhancement that requires other enhancements, show me the requirements and the total cost. Let me easily add them all without having to find and choose them all by hand.
• In the list/tree of enhancements I've selected, make it clear which ones are requirements for other things.
• When resetting my enhancements, let me add/subtract relative to what I had before. Having to start over from scratch is a time sink.

[Naerethil]

I don't usually write on the forums, but talking about a new "re-do" of the enhancements is something that encourages me to add my 2 cents.

I think there should be 3 main branches of enhancements:

- Racial Enhancements.
- Class Specific Enhancements.
- Cross-class Enhancements.

The first one, as its name implies, is about improving some traits that each race is supposed to excel at. Bonus to abilities, racial damage/hit, or racial prestige classes should be here. You'll need to have a character level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.

The second relates to some traits only available to a certain class. Monk stances enhancements, artificer pet enhancements, prestige classes... should be here. You'll need to have a class level equal to the enhancement level requirement (as well as the lower "tier" enhancements related) to learn it.

The last one relates to traits that two or more classes share. Turning undead enhancements, skill enhancements, spell damage enhancements... should be here. You can learn one of these enhancements if the sum of all your classes that share the enhancement equals the enhancement level. For example, if "Summon Paragon Dancing Kobold I" enhancement requires Level 9, and your character is a Level 4 Bard and a Level 5 Mystic Innkeeper (and both classes share that enhancement), you should be able to learn it.

I think the cross-class enhancements will help a lot with multiclassing. For example, a cross-class enhancement for bard/artificer/wizard/sorcerer that improves your arcane caster level by 1 (max. up to character level), or just a cross-class Improved Turning so Paladin/Cleric can be HotD and Radiant Servant at the same time, or even... Cross-class Prestiges?

And the UI, well... I don't think it's actually so bad, but I suppose it should be a bit more clean and visual. As many people have suggested, a search enhancement tool and a enhancement planner should be nice too.

Well, that's all.

[jkm]

They are missing some rules on the backend that have to be addressed if you want to split of PrEs from classes (so that they are more like prestige classes). Without being able to nest criteria into OR clauses (which they can't now) you can't have 2 primary requireds.

[Aelonwy]

Well FvS already get bonuses to Blade Barrier damage, via their single current PrE, AoV. They get 20% to everything not covered under the smiting lines on tier 1, another 10% on tier 2. I don't know if those affect spells like Implosion or Destruction, on the damage on save parts. My sole active divine is currently on a TR run back to 20, so I can't check.

Another thing I thought of:

Clerics need a new capstone. The current one is situational at best, and one of the best situations have been removed from game as it is. One with +2 to WIS would help push them back in-line with FvS as far as DC goes. It would also mean that a 18/2 Cleric/Monk is only on par, in ocean stance, as a 20 Cleric, DC-wise. There's still plenty to speak for the 18/2 split however.

I've not really played with FvS much but just because FvS gets a bonus to BB on its only PrE doesn't mean both cleric and FvS couldn't benefit from some spell enhancments to BB/destruction/implosion... all that would have to be done is to make sure that the PrE bonus would stack with the spell enhancement bonus should someone (whom has access to both) decide to spend the APs for both. Its of course not absolutely necessary but it would be nice seeing as how these are the damage spells clerics use quite often and must depend solely on equipment to boost.

Agreed about the cleric capstone. I forgot about it because its so less than useful I haven't seen a need to be a full cleric. Making the choice between getting cleric capstone or multiclass benefits actually matter... ouch. It would make me both happy and sad. If it was good enough I might have to buy a heart to get it. Happy and sad.

[azrael4h]

I've not really played with FvS much but just because FvS gets a bonus to BB on its only PrE doesn't mean both cleric and FvS couldn't benefit from some spell enhancments to BB/destruction/implosion... all that would have to be done is to make sure that the PrE bonus would stack with the spell enhancement bonus should someone (whom has access to both) decide to spend the APs for both. Its of course not absolutely necessary but it would be nice seeing as how these are the damage spells clerics use quite often and must depend solely on equipment to boost.

Agreed about the cleric capstone. I forgot about it because its so less than useful I haven't seen a need to be a full cleric. Making the choice between getting cleric capstone or multiclass benefits actually matter... ouch. It would make me both happy and sad. If it was good enough I might have to buy a heart to get it. Happy and sad.

IMO that is how multi-classing should be; tough choices between one very effective choice and another. Not like our current situation with Clerics, where the gains of 2 Monk vastly outweigh the gains of pure Cleric. Just not having to deal with spam invites is enough of a boon for me. Most of my cleric builds that I never run past the planning stage all have a level of fighter, monk, or barbarian just to prevent spam invites... even if they're max-WIS builds.

[azrael4h]

I disagree the arty consrtuct aside from a few bugs (I still maintain Arty Pets are the tiral run for familiars, animal companions,etc.) is a quite effective ally...sure he's no where near a PC Tank but honestly If they were I'd be calling for a nerf. IF you disagree well I'm guessing you just had a bad experience with a bad player.

I'm sorry, but when my arty's dog works, he's an aggro control disaster. He runs ahead, often through traps, attacking anything in sight. When he doesn't work, he basically wastes computing resources to render. They are not remotely effective. At best, when he works he usually can take a beating far beyond your typical pug melee, though he can't hold aggro, and he can't do much damage. Then again, someone has to repair his gimp butt, and since I got the repair wands and spells... No one is calling for a nerf because they're only slightly better than hireling fighters. And I'm having a hard time thinking of a reason to take doggy over a hireling. If you disagree you've never played an artificer.

If Artificer shipped without any dog, the class would not change whatsoever in it's capabilities. They would be essentially the same, with more effective sp from not repairing the dog.

The only reason their dual focus is needed is because they don't have enough spells nor do they have their companions as well as the fact that ranged combat is borked overall (although a well built ranged arty can give some barbs a run for their money DPS wise) if ranged combat and animal companions were added Rangers would be OP and the separation would be required.

Rangers are the least powerful melee class in the game right now. They lag behind Paladins, and significantly behind Barbarians and Fighters. Your answer to that is to make them weaker, thus ensuring that the weakest class cannot ever be considered over-powered? Rangers have had enough nerfs between Tempest being raped and TWF being made into some WoW like thing.

You seem to feel that ranged combat will be brought up to a point where it matches melee dps, and an archer can remain an archer full time. The devs have stated that they do not want to see a point in which no one melees because everyone just pulls out a bow. Ranged is already highly effective when used as intended; when tactically necessary. Running backwards while going pewpewpew in a sewer, no. Bringing down dangerous targets at safe distance very quickly, yes.

Remove their dual-focus, then remove them from the game. Just because you have an intense hatred for the Ranger class, and want it removed from the game doesn't mean they shouldn't at least try to make it on par with the other melee. I kinda liked my Ranger, and part of that was knowing I could act as the situation demanded, rather than not being able to do much other than charge everything like a Barbarian.

I disagree with you but thats not really the point...the point is +2 Con/-2 Str is a useless stat spread so I'd rather they have their old school stats of +2 Int...which in 3.5 is tinker gnomes +2int/Dex, -2Str/Wis. I could care less if Turbine just calls em Gnomes as long as they keep the stats

I don't even feel that Gnomes will add anything to the game myself. Even with +2 INT, I can't see them becoming popular for anything in particular. I doubt Turbine will do another F2P race (it's not really necessary, just improve Elves a bit to be more on par with the other F2P), and while more P2P options are desirable, they have to be desirable. I think even Kobold would gather more sales, just for the sake of novelty, than Gnomes would.

Teiflings would make sense for a +2 INT Race, and would likely sell fairly well. Just because it's edgier, be a demonic fiend! Marketing and all that. Gnome it would be "Be a garden statue! Make bad commercials for some random website!"

[Riggs]

Hopefully this will lead to more options in the enhancements, as it is now, there are alot of cases where you are forced to take useless ones just to spend points, and there are alot that you just simply cannot, not take without gimping your character.

+1 to that.

The 'must have spent 'x' action points' to access some lines needs to be lower than it is now. When AP are as tight as they are, combined with some lines that are either close to useless or super expensive - having to spent AP on things you dont want, dont need, and will not, or cannot actually use is such a waste as to be painful.

"Sure you get this ability - but it is going to cost you 1/3 of all your AP to access it - and the 20 AP spent on pre-reqs and boosting your AP total will be of no use to you. Have a nice day."

[Riggs]

i wondered why the halfling line was so exspensive, and from a race of healer house why dont they get healing AP choices like healing amp? though the +int and +cha for drop maybe a bit OP i can understand with drow Arcane, theres very little gap if any between a fully geared human DC vs full geared drow DC..

Good point - Healing +jorasco/halfling seems like a natural reason to have some kind of healing enhancement line 'healers friend' for a fleshy basically.

And yeah given most other races get to pick a +2 line based on their stats that get a bonus, drow get pooched by not having that - they should be given a 'pick one line' and get access to either dex/int/cha - all 3 would be overkill, or be a bit like human, and get to put 2 points into any of the 3 stats in any amount, +1 dex +1 int, +2 int, etc. Being 28 points at base drow are pretty meh otherwise.

[Riggs]

Crit Rage in my mind was the first prestige enhancement and never should have been done away with. It is viable and with the last nerf to insta-kills it is in no way over powered.

The fact that people still keep it and refuse to reset anything on their character after several years in fact shows just the opposite - that it is overpowered.

Turbine made critical damage way too important, and way too overpowered, and we have a ton of power creep as a result of too many crit enhancements over simply base damage enhancements.

Khopesh.
Sos.
Epic Sos
Barb crit rage.
FB x3 crit damage.
Bloodstone as one of the most valuable trinkets in the game for so many years.

I remember how absurdidly OP a crit rage dual wop rapier barb was before the changes to stat damage and making epic new epic stuff mostly immune to stat damage.

The fear of the changes are that they will change so many things that a wide range of valid builds get nurfed or simply no longer work they way they were supposed to work. Worrying about a several year old OP enhancement line is not one of the worries however.

Like someone said - bragging about how great kobold cookies are is an extremely low bar of what is considered good or exciting to actual players. New changes might be good. Hope they are good. Want them to be good.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I don't even feel that Gnomes will add anything to the game myself.

I can build you a gnome illusionist bard that would rock yer socks off, or is it my socks, or is it MadFloyds socks? You get the idea?

Adding gnome IF they add the illusion based spells to the game would be off the hook, especially if it would also grant bards of all flavors more spell selections...

[slimkj]

Another thing popped into my head about this; most games seem to prefer a graphical based skill tree approach. Whilst I understand that might be popular, I prefer text lists (although it could be better done than it is now) so a choice of design would be nice. I don't mind the tree approach but collapsing linked lists or similar would be appreciated. Irritates the hell out of me having to hover over things to see what they do.

[krackythehoodedone]

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHH.

I knew this day would come.

Mr Mad One please step away from the conversation.

Resetting the Enhancement will mean losing Crit Rage. This will completely destroy everything i just spent two years finishing.

Please please dont kill the old Crit Rage enhancement for Barbs.

[Memnir]

Please please dont kill the old Crit Rage enhancement for Barbs.

Or even better - put it back.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Or even better - put it back.

Exactly what I JUST said to my guildie when I read Kracky's post.

This would satisfy the most Barbs I believe as well. You'll always have the grievers either way.

[voodoogroves]

Or even better - put it back.

Maybe call it the Ravager, whatever ... but yes. Give Barbs that option; auto-reset of enhancements was painful on my arcanes ... I can only imagine those folks that have been sitting on crit rage for years and how bad it will hit them in the gut.

[Eladrin]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree.

Something like Barbarian Critical Rage may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line as the Ravager Capstone.

[Coldin]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

We're doing what we can to make every tree appealing.

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. Barbarian Critical Rage, for example, isn't currently on the list, though something somewhat like it may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line. (Ravager Capstone!)

I really like what I'm hearing so far. Especially with Prestige Enhancements being open to all classes.

[voodoogroves]

Currently we're trying to make as many of the new enhancements follow a 1, 1, 1, 1, 1 model as possible. Most of them will have 5 ranks in my current proposal, with class level requirements on the ranks.

awesome

We've been discussing some possible changes to Dragonmarks as well. The Extra Dragonmark enhancement is likely to change into an "Improved Dragonmark" enhancement that grants both additional uses and other perks. We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

This would be great - it would be awesome if dragonmarks were mechanically useful in and of themselves. The best right now is Sentinel and not because of what it does itself, but because of how it interacts with one item.

In our current design, some of the old rules regarding enhancements change a bit. Qualifying for Prestige Enhancement lines tends to become less complicated and the "only one per class" restriction is likely to go away. (It'll be possible to be a Ranger Arcane Archer/Tempest in my current plan.) I also expect that if you choose to take an enhancement from one class and a similar one in another, they'll stack instead of being prohibited.

Is this going to work the other way? Can I have a wizard-savant or a FVS Radiant Servant ... or a bard air savant boosting the sonic spells?

It is true that some enhancements will be going away, and others will be combined into others or modified to some degree. Barbarian Critical Rage, for example, isn't currently on the list, though something somewhat like it may be folded into the Ravager enhancement line. (Ravager Capstone!)

Yes - melee needs the love and this will help the crit-ragers who are ultimately going to get hit hard otherwise.

[Eladrin]

I really like what I'm hearing so far. Especially with Prestige Enhancements being open to all classes.

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

[waterboytkd]

We've also been debating turning the Lesser and Greater marks into enhancements that have the Least mark as a prerequisite, freeing up some feats on Dragonmark builds.

I think this is a great idea, though I might include a slight tweak: for some builds, AP are tighter than feats, so if you could make it so that you could take the Lesser and Greater marks as either feats or enhancements, that would offer the maximum flexibility.

Of course, the idea that AP are tighter than feats might disappear with the enhancement pass.

But I like!

Also, I am all for making linear benefit have linear costs. If each tier of an enhancement line offers the same benefit (+1 stat at tier 1, +1 stat at tier 2, and +1 stat at tier 3, for example), then I think each tier should cost the same (using the previous example, 2 AP at tier 1, 2 AP at tier 2, and 2 AP at tier 3).

The PrE's aren't entirely open to all classes at this time - the restriction of you can only have one PrE from one class is going away.

That's how I understood your original post, and I think that's fine still. Yes, PnP PrCs could be taken by any class that could meet the prereqs, but the PrC system was not without its flaws. I like the idea that PrEs are tied to a class, and the removal of the restriction of one PrE per class is going to open up some really cool builds. Kensai/Stalwart Defenders! Thief Acrobat Assassins! Shintao Henshin! Lava (earth and fire) savants! My god. DDO could be getting WILD.

However, each race will be able to take a racial enhancement to unlock a tree associated with a class - Dwarves can select Stalwart Defender, Elves can take Arcane Archer, and so on.

Oh wow. I mean, Dwarf getting Dwarven Defender...that would make dwarves one of the sickest classes...unless, of course, every race got a sick PrE (Horc could get Ravager or FB, Halfling or Drow could get Assassin, Helf could open any one PrE from their Dilly, Human could...I don't know; what about warforged? is warforged juggernaut still coming? if so, pretty pretty please make it a viable option for any class), which is more or less what you said. You didn't say get access to a sick PrE...and you should. Or, better yet, make sure that all PrEs are as sick as the others...