Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Missing_Minds]

I'm going to wait to see the new Tree system before I give out mroe feedback.

And the only reason to keep crit rage is because of bowbarians really.

Heck, even I gave up crit rage. Mostly because I GOT SICK OF WAITING ON THE F'N PRE'S TO GET FINISHED.

[AZgreentea]

I like the idea of the tree's. Its much simpler than scrolling through a list. Of course, the idea that I will have to rethink and redo not only my enhancements, but possibly my skills and feats because of changes and updates is a little scary. It would be like the last two years of development and changes to classes happening overnight, thus making all characters obsolete simultaneously.... Dooooom!

As a side note, while you are poking at the enhancements panel, can you take a look at the Adventures tab in the Adventures journal (the one where you can view what quests you have completed)? It was a little out of date before, but with the new bravery bonus, it could really use some love. I thought the suggestion on a few threads that we have a method to view how many times and on what difficulty we have completed a quest would be extremely useful. I know that data has to live someplace, because its tracked for xp purposes when you enter a quest.

[Kilnedric]

Some of you might dismiss this as ‘fixing something that isn’t broken’ and that’s fine – it’s totally subjective – but, hey, I’m giving you a heads up just the same.

We hate the Enhancement UI.

<snip>

Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new.

So, what scares me here is combining 2 very different concerns into one "task". This seems a bad idea to me.

I agree 100% the UI sucks. It sucks so bad it's actually a very large learning curve to people I know coming from other MMOs, without a D&D background. Changing the UI is a GREAT idea! Changing it to a tree view is a GREAT idea.

Changing the *content* of the enhancements is a questionable idea. Changing it to work more like other MMOs is NOT, IMO, a good idea. Please don't lock people into only certain builds because of the "deep tree" talent concept. The relatively "flat trees" we have now are great. So, please be careful doing this. But more importantly, don't tie this to the UI change. They are two different things!

Thanks for all the work and for posting.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

There are some who's builds will be forever lost. For example, for those old school barbarians that never switched out Critical Rage (before PrEs were introduced), they will lose their builds forever. On the flip side, Turbine should have never allowed barbarians to keep it in the first place. They should have shut down CR entirely. There's not very many crit rage barbs left, but the ones who want to still hold onto CR will be very, very upset.

As for "Some enhancements will remain the same, but many will be new" this is the straw thats going to stir the drink. This is certainly treacherous waters for Turbine to be tinkering in. However I see it as Turbines biggest opportunity this year to make the largest number of people happy.

In order for Turbine to get the biggest positive bang for their buck is to promote this, very clearly, very vividly. Precisely, they need to sell this as a necessity in order to finally complete the PrEs. They can and should say they are re-balancing certain enhancements to more closely resemble D&D and even borrowed some great ideas from the DDO community itself (the ddo forums). What a moral boost if they worded it this way and actually followed through, heh?

The enhancements obviously need to be altered in order to fit in the remainder of the PrEs, as many of them were made long before the PrEs were designed. People will be crying no doubt. However, if at level 18, the final PrEs are powerful enough, it will satisfy the great majority.

They really need something BIG to offset some lousy decisions they've made in 2011... as well as the game's obvious shelf-life factor. In order for the 6 year old DDO to survive for the next 3-4 years, it will need to reinvent itself several more times. The question is can they do this without ticking off too many (more) folks in the process?

I think Big T has done a great job with skills, enhancements, and feats, and have somehow managed to translate the great majority of them well for combat purposes. This is a strength of Turbine. Prestiges on the other hand I think are a mish-moshed taped-on glue stick nailed and screwed clusterfunk.

If they sell and do this right, they will excite many, and **** off some. If they do it wrong, I'm out before those nails & screws start popping!

[Kinerd]

I am of mixed feelings.

-Ambition is a good thing. I would even go so far as to call the proposal an aggressive look at revamping enhancements. Good!
-Aggression that's out of control is worse than timidity. You don't score on 100% of the shots you don't take, but you don't score and lose possession on 100% of the shots you put harmlessly in the goalkeeper's mitts.

This feeling of concern is dramatically exacerbated by DDO's recent penchant to fire and forget content, to implement and abandon. An ambitious but flawed project after six months is just a flawed project. I'm not going to prognosticate about whether DDO can handle a flawed project of this magnitude (doom), that is pointless. I will say that of itself it is not a good idea to go on the tightrope without a net.

If the recent trend of abandoning releases is slated to continue, I would rather the staff leave well enough alone. The enhancement system works. Any massive project is going to have problems. If the recent trend doesn't change, those problems are going to be ignored, no matter how major. That would be very frustrating for everyone who uses the enhancement system.

[Pwesiela]

OK, read up to here.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

I will be happy if, at the time this is released, each class has two full PrE's attached to it, with information as to how the third is planned to work.

That having been said, when you post the thread on PrE feedback, I'll be there.

The above, however, is encouraging.

[moops]

Please add something for Offensive casting clerics who are not nannybots
And make it affordable. . .

--besides cheaper heighten/quicken/ maximize
I'd like to see maybe something for Necro and Enchantment DCs.

[dkyle]

The followup is certainly heartening. I'm glad to hear your intentions. But I do worry how the implementation turns out.

Please add something for Offensive casting clerics who are not nannybots
And make it affordable. . .

--besides cheaper heighten/quicken/ maximize
I'd like to see maybe something for Necro and Enchantment DCs.

No offensive casting anythings need buffs right now. Well, except maybe offensive casting Rangers. The rest are more than sufficiently overpowered as it is.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!

There's certainly an uneasy feeling in my stomach because they are messing with fire here. However, if Turbine has learned the biggest wants in each class' communities, this may be a very much appreciated, very excellent upgrade to the game. I'm cautiously upbeat.

[voodoogroves]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!

And elves, drow and to a lesser extent dwarves and halflings on the AP front.

[Nuralanya]

I got racial improved balance 4 on my WF wizard to reach the non-failure on titan balance. But I agree, there is few reasons to ever get improved <skill> in most builds. Very few skills really benefit from a +1~4 bonus (Mostly, Intimidate, Balance, and UMD for arties)

This may have been pointed out further down the thread (I've only got to this point so far!), but I can see a use for these enhancements in certain groups such as PD players and others who play by self-imposed gear limits. If your rogue can't get the best Disable gear for level unless they get lucky, for example, then being able to add a few points to the skill via enhancements is very helpful and it can be reset to something else when you do finally get the gear you need.

[Thrudh]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.

[Nuralanya]

(regarding 'AP spent' requirements)

I haven't looked at a specific list, but those are there for a reason. Without them, it would be simple to take all of the enhancements you normally take at endgame without taking the low level ones first. While I agree that they should be lowered (any light monk who has to take Improved Concentratjon will probably agree), I don't think they should be done away with entirely.

I agree that there should be certain requirements - I wouldn't expect to be able to take Skill Boost IV without first taking I, II and III, for example. What makes the current system difficult is that you know what you want to take, but you can't take it until you've spent say 4 more points - but there's nothing available that you want. So you wind up having to take something that's not very useful to your character, just to meet the requirement for the enhancement you really do want. And there's no option to swap out such individual useless enhancements later. Perhaps that's something that could be added in, maybe at level 20 - the ability to switch certain enhancements that you no longer need/want without resetting the whole lot, so long as the system forbids you from removing required lower tiers or pre-reqs?

[Alaunra2010]

I'm eager for changes both to the UI itself and to fleshing out the enhancements available.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

And elves, drow and to a lesser extent dwarves on the AP front.

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

[fuzzy1guy]

Redcated

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'd like to see more linear progressions...

I dislike the 1,2,3,4 AP costs... especially when the 4th step gives the same power as the 1st step...

I'd like to see more 1,1,1,1 options... maybe even 1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...

Dragonmarks enhancements definitely should be lowered to 1,1,1,1... Dragonmarks are way too weak already... costing 10 AP to get 4 more dragonmarks is way too expensive.

Agreed. Especially if they are adding enhancements, they need to make them cost less across the board so people can keep lots of "their build" and add some of the "cool new bells & whistles" on top. Our builds should feel the same, yet be more powerful because of the "new, improved enhancements/PrEs".

In my opi, more customization = win.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

You have a preview server.

This will be the gold key. I'd prefer to see this update break a record. Id like to see it remain on the Lamma servers for a good loooooong time, and see active communication like never before between the dev and gaming communities.

Im not asking for 100% bug free, but I am hoping for 99.99% bug free. A solid effort here, and tight communication will go a long way.

Communication does seem like its really picking up on Turbines side, and for that I thank you Mad! Now for the meat & potatoes, the execution.

[voodoogroves]

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

I'd love to see the DM heir PRE add in alternate capabilities similar to what is in the Dragonmarked book - maybe merging the Dragonmarked Heir w/ the specific DM PRCs in that book.

[Chette]

The only change I really want to see to the enhancement UI is that if I collapse something, that it should stay collapsed after I select an enhancement, instead of resetting everything to be uncollapsed. I hate having to wade through all the enhancements I don't care about each time I spend a single point.

It would also be nice to have a few more higher lever groups. For example all fighter enhancements under one branch, all rogue enhancements under one branch, all racial enhancements under one branch, etc. Selecting show unavailable on a multiclass character can otherwise be a little overwhelming.

As for changing specific enhancements, I look forward to it! I think enhancement changes are one of the easiest ways to go about balancing some of the races and classes. Enhancements add a lot of variety between builds and classes, so having more options here can only be a good idea.

In general, Halflings/Dwarves/Elves/Drow Elves need a lot of work. These classes have almost next to nothing going for them enhancement wise. It would be nice to see some tweaking of Bard enhancements as well to allow for more specialization in either melee, healing or offensive casting (though this would require some useful offensive spells as well...) instead of most bards, arguably the most versatile class in the game, having basically the same enhancements regardless other than PrE requirements.

Some other specific things I'd love to see include:

Change Life Magic and Song Magic similar to how arcane enhancements were changed to have a separate tree for each spell enhancer (Eg. arcane enhancements went from a tree for fire/cold, to a tree for fire and a tree, same should happen for divine enhancers with AP cost reduced appropriately)

Reduce cost of halfling cunning/guile and change the dependence of guile on cunning. Rogue enhancements for SA damage do not require the rogue to purchase the enhancements for SA attack, so it seems silly that the equivalent halfling enhancements are linked.

Add force/untyped enhancements for clerics as a bare minimum. FvS would be nice, but we both know FvS have enough selling points already. This would help balance out clerics.