Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[Natean]

This is how I see it being done. With it being a Tree and all...

Monk Tree. Also some additional ideas like a search bar, Race/Class tree to the side. Obviously you mouse over for details.

[MadFloyd]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI.

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

[Thrudh]

change is good, unless those changes suck.

New signature

[Xenostrata]

Not if they leave the class level requirement in and take the AP spent requirement out.

Not really. You could level up a level 20 sorc, buy the capstone, and max out two chains of damages, get a PrE with it's prereqs, etc. - the AP spent requirement is to make sure you can't just max out one given skill without having others as well.

[Failedlegend]

This is how I see it being done. With it being a Tree and all...

Monk Tree. Also some additional ideas like a search bar, Race/Class tree to the side. Obviously you mouse over for details.

Personally I'd prefer top to bottom but otherwise that seems like something I'd go for ESPECIALLY the breaking up of the Class and race into their own sections (assuming multiple classes = even more sections) with several subsections within.

[MissMoogle]

From my personal experience, I see three things where a revamp would help to balance the classes/races.

• Halfling Cunning/Guile vs. Half-Elf Rogue Dilly. I know it's not the same, but the bonuses are similar. Yet the requirements for the Halfling are much steeper.
• Paladins. The APs on a pally are generally horribly tight, and this does not help the paladins being no match for other DPS classes, such as Barb, Fighter, Monk, or even Ranger. Paladins as DPS need a boost, and relaxed AP costs can help there.
• Drow. Drow are generally nice already, but their bonuses pale in comparison to other races. The racial Dex doesn't help for most builds at all. My suggestion would be a mechanic similar to the human adaptability, but only with Dex, Cha and Int. This way, Drow would get an edge over humans, putting them a potential +2 ahead of humans.

i wondered why the halfling line was so exspensive, and from a race of healer house why dont they get healing AP choices like healing amp? though the +int and +cha for drop maybe a bit OP i can understand with drow Arcane, theres very little gap if any between a fully geared human DC vs full geared drow DC..

I've got a bad feeling about this.

Are we going to see some interesting multiclass builds being nerfed?
Are we going to see balancing for PvP?
Are we going to see a reduction in the versatility that builds are capable of?
Are we going to see a reduction in active combat?

The big thing that worries me is that I suspect that all of the changes that I wouldn't want the average punter might actually pay money for. However, revenue now does not equal a quality game. What are the priorities? Make money now? Quality game?

Oh, and what's the time frame for this?

^ agreed I'm more scared then excited, though looking forward to seeing if versatility > fascist regime of Tree roots. Im pullin for you devs impress us!

[Failedlegend]

OK, read up to here.

First of all, just want to say thanks for all the participation and the valuable well articulated feedback.

I appreciate the concerns. There's a couple posts that I will respond to separately, but in general I want to say:

- I will share a mockup of the new UI. Visual Aids FTW!!

- I am happy to reveal details of various enhancement lines as they become available - and have you guys scrutinize them.

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.
I approve of this just like when I make character builds and post them on the forums theres always at least one or two things that I total missed that someone points out which could have completely ruined the build/experience

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained. Armed and ready



- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind. Maybe I'll actually enjoy playing a melee one day

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER. Any chance of multi-class PrEs??

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do. Note: He said it's possible not IT WILL BE DONE

- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

- All this is subject to change - whether it be due to player feedback, production considerations, or whatever.

Thanks again for keeping the thread productive.
MF

Notes in red

[Psiandron]

Giant wall of candy

Well first off...
<looks at giant wall of candy>
Really...
<looks again>
I need to go sit down.

[CaptainSpacePony]

-I agree that enhancements and the EUI need an overhaul.
-I support all of MF’s stated objectives.
-I also ask that you expand the “deity” options. There are 3 race restricted options and 2 open options. Although I am not familiar with Ebberon lore, it seems to me as if each race could use its own, including a human-only option.
-I recommend NOT completing prestige enhancements all at once. There is a lot of work to do here, and rushing it will lead to unfun imbalances. The old stated goal of 1 pre/update was great. Also, new prestige stuff is a sales driver, I’m sure.

[nivarch]

Just to say that this seem awesome.
I love change, and this seem to be a change that may bring a lot of new possible builds.
It will also fix a messy UI.

Double thumbs up on the project. Just don't rush it!

[Memnir]

feel free to share your thoughts and concerns.

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Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in unforeseen/unintended ways.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.

[BattleCircle]

I would do better with a visualization of the new UI. You guys may not have it ready, or have a mock up available though. Doesn't sound outrageous as you presented it.

I think people that still have the "Crit Rage" enhancement line are going to set fire to the forums when they find out about this. Good luck with that Madfloyd.

Crit Rage in my mind was the first prestige enhancement and never should have been done away with. It is viable and with the last nerf to insta-kills it is in no way over powered.

[Failedlegend]

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Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in a major way.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.

Not only directed at you Memnir

ou guys know the enhancements already use a tree system eh? It's shown quite well by Natean..from what I understand their not changing how taking enhancemnts works just giving a more user friendly UI and adding some more/repairing old less used & broken enhancements.

[Ganolyn]

Just one or two more...




But really - I am honestly terrified that this will only make things worse instead of better. Even more so since, as you said, it's not broken. This screams to me of Dev Hubris, and that has never worked in favor of the player. I still recall the Turbine Dev who took the time to code out "sit and spin" at shrines simply because he didn't like it. Made him cringe, as it were. This was something that players liked, harmed nothing, and a lot of people still want it put back... So, I have a really dim view of change for change's sake. Let alone change just because a Turbine Dev dislikes something.


I foresee this this as taking away, or at the very least diminishing, one of the best selling points of this game - player preferential customization of their character. I'm willing to bet the farm that this will in some way limit that, or curtail it in a major way.


And as I elude to in the pic above... DDO can't afford too many more nails in the coffin, at least as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I am on a break from logging in - and I see little point or purpose to posting on these forums much anymore - but I had a glimmer of hope for 2012 luring me back.

This just makes me feel like my choices were justified, and that decisions like this one will only reinforce my feelings that my DDO days are done.

Did you see these bullet points?

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.


- The UI is comprised of multiple trees (not just one) based on PrEs and race. You can spend points in multiple trees if you like.

I have a wait and see attitude as well, but at least he is saying that we will get previews and input before it goes live, which is something we have been asking for for over a year or more now.

[Memnir]

ou guys know the enhancements already use a tree system eh?

Absolutly.

Call my misgivings more of a bankruptcy of faith in the Dev team then anything else. But also, as I mentioned above, when the Devs change something that is working just for the sake of change - the players have almost never benefited from it in this game and with this Dev team. And hearing that they are tinkering with a system that works and works well makes me cringe.

[red_cardinal]

- I need to look into the bowbarian builds.

Bow damage is an issue because firing rate is slow. And now compared to repeaters it's pathetic.
Increase bow firing rate for regular user - no ranger/fighter capstone, no fast shot feat, no haste of any kind.

- Lamannia has already been trending towards earlier builds - ugliness and all; effectively it's becoming a test server, not a preview server. If everything goes as planned you get a chance to play & comment before it's too late to change.

This is perhaps the best feature available. Feedback received from U9 release for Sorcerer prestiges was great and that's why that prestige turned out nice.

Lammania should have the following:
- NPC to add XP to a new character -> multiclass anything right away,
- NPC to give out new loot (finished and crafted, not just materials) so weapon/equipment effects can be tested out
- Lord Poincelot - give 2500 TP per character per day so if you release new stuff for store, it can be tested out (like new armor kits).

- I consider myself chief of the nerf police. Not going to happen casually on my watch. In cases where it's truly warranted, it will be explained.

If players get a buff, so do mobs. It's not about nerfing or making things overpowered - it's just to make something valuable and usable.

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

True, but Divine spells also need buffs so Cleric/FVS can have damage increases for Firestorm and similar spells. Those spells must be strong - it's not all about blade barrier, divine punishment and implosion.

Ranger summons also must have CR increased. They could act as artificer pets and get a bar... But, that's asking to much. Perhaps, when Druids come out.

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

I agree, but it wasn't so until now. IF you make it to be your bread and butter then focus on it because it really is important. Cross-class caster level increase is also welcome.

- Yes, many costs (and enhancements themselves) are not as useful as they once were when the level cap was much lower. All this is being looked at.
- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

Nobody is expecting an ideal world.

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

Indeed, that's welcome.

[voodoogroves]

Bow damage is an issue because firing rate is slow. And now compared to repeaters it's pathetic.
Increase bow firing rate for regular user - no ranger/fighter capstone, no fast shot feat, no haste of any kind.

Nah, just increase the benefit to Rapid Shot and possibly Rapid Reload.

[Carpone]

- Getting all PrE's finished is paramount to us. In an ideal world, they will all be finished when we release the enhancement Re-do.

Best DDO development news I ever read. Really looking forward to this!

[Scraap]

- The new UI (and new enhancements) are not in any way intended to dumb down the flexibility and depth of character builds. Forgive me for the all caps, but DEPTH OF BUILD DESIGN, INCLUDING MULTI-CLASSING IS OUR BREAD AND BUTTER.

So does that mean we may see things like skill and wand mastery using class totals, rather than specified class levels?
I ask about wand mastery specifically, since there's 2 sets of progressions at present in terms of percentile bump.

[le_goat]

I would love a visual tree to plan out enhancements

But

I would not like to be the dev in charge of planning this !

Beer pinata for whoever does it right!