Let's Talk: Enhancements!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

I'd love to see the DM heir PRE add in alternate capabilities similar to what is in the Dragonmarked book - maybe merging the Dragonmarked Heir w/ the specific DM PRCs in that book.

Oh hell yeah.

"Dragonmarks are a major part of what makes the Eberron setting interesting and distinct from the core D&D experience." - James Wyatt, the D&D Design Manager for Wizards of the Coast Roleplaying R&D

This would be a massive overstatement in DDO terms. I think there is real potential here, for a minimal amount of dev time (in comparison to many other projects I've read about) .

[nibel]

Definitely.

Boosting/Reshuffling Dragonmarks might also lead to some really cool new builds. I rarely, and I mean rarely build dragonmarks in for people, and find myself recommending against it almost exclusively. Thats a shame, they can be a great deal of fun and shouldnt be too hard on the design team to figure out how to make them respectful. Right now, far too expensive for what you get.

Maybe checking a bit of 4e dragonmarks on the enhancement line. Eg, 4e mark of healing gives a free saving throw every time the bearer heals someone. Obviously, 4e saving throws don't exist on DDO, but the idea may be there. Something to incentive HEALERS to get the MARK OF HEALING.

[Rhysem]

- To repeat the goals: improve comprehension, re-balance AP costs, improve or jettison weak enhancements, improve weak classes, finish PrE's.

^^^^ Doing it right.

Just make sure as you change enhancements you go back and do a pass over difficulties. If many tanks take some or all of their intimidate enh lines and those vanish, intim DCs need to change to reflect that.

[grodon9999]

I'd like to see the racial weapons get a SIGNIFICANT increase over what they are now. +4 to-hit/damsge over the current +2 over a SIGNIFICANTLY lower AP cost. And honestly compared to human/helf damage boost and horc general over-poweredness that might not even be enough.

I was very annoyed that my dwarf fighter was left with no choice but to go Khopesh, it's a slap in the face for a dwarf to have to spend 12 AP to do LESS damage than if he just spends 1 feat.

[Phemt81]

- Melee classes need love in general. Changes to enhancements will be made with this in mind.

I honestly find this the most exciting declared change in the "let's talk" threads.

Adjusting melees to balance the game experience compared to casters and modify some particular enhancements like paladin's divine might is definetely the way to go.

Also, in my personal opinion, 10 seconds are a bit too much for a 20 seconds boost, especially for a capped toon. And i am not considering the times you click an enhancement and it does not get casted (but cooldown sometimes works anyway!).

Compared to those things a user interface is not that much worth of concerns, but if you feel it's time to renew the outdated look, i can see your point.

What to say? I am really happy you are travelling on the right road!

[mystafyi]

when we release the enhancement Re-do.

Are these upcoming changes planned for U13 or this a longer term project?

Are changes being considered to bring the game more in line with 4.0 d&d?

[arkonas]

i love the idea of a revamp. i do know if anyone will get mad but maybe a tree sorta like the Rift? im not saying exactly but by doing an easy tree anyone can follow but yet gets the job done its really fun

[Redicular]

all for an updated UI, the current one really is a bear to work with.

all for enhancement changes, any and all changes really. the reason I play mmos and not singleplayer rpgs is the potential for/expectation that the game I play next month will have only a passing resemblance to the one i played last year

suggestions for the weak end of monk enhancements. people who are wondering why we complain about AP progression requirements, read the first 1/2 of that post.

[mournbladereigns]

I like the idea that the UI will be redone.

But as others have said, crit rage barbarians are going to be very sad (possibly very angry also). You let them keep their enhancements when you changed them as long as they didn't reset them. Its kind of cool to here about the builds running around still sporting these enhancements. It would be a shame to see investment in these characters destroyed not because of a decision that they needed to go, but as collateral damage from a UI change.

Actually, if this Nerf's one of Shade's barb's I doubly support this!

I don't care how many monk handwrap's it breaks, I want my PrE's!

Dragongmark Heir PrE's being smexy would be win. also, I want my scorpion wraith!

Improve Racial Enhancements for Elves/Halflings, even Dwarves (If you include Dwarven Defender PrE, you'll see crying dwarves everywhere!) WF Juggernaut so the WF meelees will stop crying.

Biggest thing is, in the name of simplifying, don't totally dumb down/kill Multi-classing options plox. How about that practiced spellcaster feat already.

[waterboytkd]

- Your ideas/thoughts on which enhancements are currently of little value as well as suggestions for improvements or new enhancement lines are welcome and encouraged (although I should probably start a new thread for that so they aren't buried!)

I think you should start a new thread for each class and race. It'll be a lot of threads, but it'll keep feedback and info well organized.

And the sooner those official threads start, the sooner we can start giving you focused feedback. :B

[geoffhanna]

If this has already been brought out then I apologize.

But ...

Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?

It will fit much better with your idea of enhancement trees.

Might be kind of hard on the UI, and on the way we look at the game. For instance, does the three-class limit still apply when one of the classes is a Prestige class?

But you are talking about big sweeping changes already. Why not take a few steps back and think about this at the same time - it would be a much more powerful way for us to customize our characters.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Here's a thought that doesnt get brought up enough...

Prestige Enhancements should be broken away from their base classes ....

There's no reason a Fighter shouldn't be allowed to go Tempest, and no reason a Ranger shouldn't be allowed to go Kensai. This concept is already used for Arcane Archer (All Elves can take it, regardless of class). Imagine a drwarven defender Barbarian, fortifying one of their weaknesses... for example...

If you take all the right feats or invest in all the right skills and stats, all PrEs should be available to take for any class as long as you meet the required feat/stat/skill/enhancement abilities.

This was how it was done in PnP and how it should be done in DDO.

The main benefit of course is MORE CHOICES. More ways to build the fighter/caster/healer/custom pimp my ride ___________ that you want to play. The other benefit I see is potentially greatly minimizing game balance issues tied to class PrE vs class PrE and minimize your headaches at the same time "this PrE is for fighters, so we need to balance that with another for paladins"...

[azrael4h]

A few random thoughts:

1 - While I believe the thought is to change the UI to more of a streamlined "can-actually-find-****" model rather than the "big honkin' list" we have now, I think it's important to reiterate many people's concerns: DO NOT MAKE ANY ALTERATIONS WHICH FORCE PLAYERS INTO CERTAIN ENHANCEMENT PATHS. DDO's variety of build options are what makes this game, more than anything. No other MMO allows me to build a raid-healing capable character which is also capable of mixing it up in melee. No other MMO allows a buffing support character to provide either crowd control or melee dps, or in some rare, heavily geared cases even able to operate as a tank. Any change which reduces the number of viable builds is bad for both long and short term player growth and retention. MMOs die because eventually they do not offer anything new to their players, and people leave.

2 - Merge identical enhancements. You did it with Improved Skill enhancements; but many classes share identical enhancements which are not compatible with each other. Others have noted that this can create incompatibilities with certain multi-class builds and PrEs. Stat enhancements, for example. Rather than having Ranger DEX and Rogue DEX, have a single 'Professional DEX' with a level requirement in Rogue or Ranger. Instead of Cleric Improved Turning and Paladin Improved Turning, have "Professional Improved Turning" with x levels of Paladin or Cleric for prerequisites.

3 - Higher-tier enhancements need to have AP costs reduced. Racial/Class Toughness IV is often not taken because it costs 4ap... compared to 1ap for tier 1. I actually like the thought of the first tier costing a bit more, while subsequent tiers are cheaper. Racial Healing Amp is horrendously expensive for the benefit of 10% on the third tier. I could go on. But in general; higher tiers should not cost 3-4x as much as the first but not provide any more benefit.

4 - Some classes need a serious looking into.

4a - Barbarians could use a bit of help, every Barbarian is the same currently. For the 'enhancement pass', may I suggest that one of DDO's most popular classes gets a second, full, PrE. I'm not picky, and I doubt anyone playing one is either, make a Ravager or Slayer, no one will complain as long as it can compare to Berserker. I might also suggest reworking Improved Damage Reduction to be 5% off the top per tier, 4 tiers. This will allow Barbarians to a) not be as squishy as they are now, increasing their lacking means of damage mitigation, and b) offset the gains that Defender Paladins and Fighters got with the upgraded Shield Mastery and Monks with Earth IV.

4b - Monks need some cost reductions for stances and strikes, and something worth spending AP on at the low level so they're not stuck taking Improved Spot for a couple of points.

4c - Paladins need a total-workover on their enhancement list; there is simply no way to take what you want and fit in useful racial enhancements like Racial Healing Amp. HotD is too expensive, AP wise, for a line which has limited value outside of a niche. Right now, the only general Paladin PrE I would consider is DoS, and that only post upgrade. KotC is nice... in specific content. As DDO grows, I hope to see plenty of non-Devil/Daemon content, which the more we get, the weaker KotC becomes. They also need a new capstone, since Artificers basically replace much of the functionality of their current one.

4d - Rangers need love as well; Tempest is border-line not worth taking; I'm on the fence as to whether the minor benefits are trumped by having 4 feats to pick something else instead are worth the trade off. Capstone isn't worth taking unless you're an AA, and Deepwood is definitely not worth taking. Outside of the FE damage/attack lines, I see nothing else the class gets to speak of really.

4e - Fighters need some work just to make their lines readable! Unlike the others, I think Fighter has a strong line of enhancements, but it's painful to even look at.

4f - All primary melee classes should have at least two tiers of healing amp. Throw us Divine players a bone. 'Course, I doubt anyone will give up their precious "DPS" for being 20% easier to heal, but that's expected. They can just sit and cry about not having anyone to hjeal them. 2ap per tier.

5 - Action boosts are a great way to give players a more active job when playing melee dps roles. However, unless you are a Horc Fighter Kensai, you only get 5-7. Even those only get what, a half-dozen more? I suggest reworking the "Extra Boost" lines into recharging boosts instead. Horc's can keep the extra boosts, since I think every class which gets an action boost also gets a class extra boosts line.

6 - Racial weapon enhancements are both too expensive, and too weak. 6ap for 2 to-hit? 6ap to 2-4 damage? To top it off, unless you are Horc and get all THF damage boosted, you're not getting boosts to the most common, high dps weapon type in-game; the Khopesh. Even for THF, the best you have now is a Greatsword. So only Horc's get bonuses there.

My suggestion is to reduce the costs, mainly on the second tiers (see #3). Add a third tier either increasing the critical range, or the multiplier on a natural 20. Perhaps both; though that may be a bit powerful. Then again, we're talking 6ap for each line (attack, damage, with each having a crit enhancement at the third tier). this would give Elven, Drow, and Dwarven melee a bump in dps with their racial weapons.

7 - Drow and Elves, more than any race (though Halflings need a cost reduction, they have good enhancements, and that falls under #3) need some help.

7a - Drow could add their SR enhancement lines back in, allowing them to actually have a higher SR than others. With Epic casters having such a high CR, I don't know where the balance would be at to have "not completely worthless in epic" and "not completely immune to spells in non-Epic".

7b - Mentioned before, by myself and others, here and elsewhere. Give Drow an exclusive racial line for INT, CHA, or DEX, rather than just DEX. This will give them a DC edge as a Sorcerer, Bard, Artificer, or Wizard.

8 - Instead of extra uses of the Dragonmarks, give them regenerating uses instead, via enhancements. Make it expensive, but it would be worth it on say a Halfling. Of course, making the rest of the marks useful and viable for all classes and not just Fighters, Wizards, Artificers, and Monks will still require work, but that's a feat pass, not enhancement pass.

9 - More PrEs!

[Scraap]

Another random thought: if melee are to be the sustained ability sub-group, how about modifying the extra x boost lines to more along the lines of regens? Say, 5 minutes for 1 action boost for the first tier, 3 for the second. Might make that 12 and 16 points spent a bit more attractive.

[FrancisP.Fancypants]

Tree style enhancment UI. Awesome.

Screwing up all the enhancements of every single player and making changes in there too... Real bad idea.

Unless you can 100% GUARANTEE it will roll out with 0 bugs. ZERO. not a bunch that take 3 patches and another update to fix like everything else done lately. This **** is not acceptable anymore. You have a beta server. You have a preview server. LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE ALREADY! And stop pushing bugged content out and fixing it later.
Ddo is not a new enough game to be pulling that bs anymore.

Pretty much sums it up for me too.

A new UI would be great, but it has to be usable. Changing up enhancements, on the other hand...have some fixes for all the feat changes and whatever else. The sorc savant changes with the free dragon blood were very smooth- there's no reason things shouldn't go just as smooth for anything else.

[dkyle]

Why not take this opportunity to get the PrE's out of the game altogether and replaced with actual Prestige Classes?

No, please.

I like PrEs better than PrCs.

[Lalangamena]

Hi,

the weak points in the current UI is that

1) you cant plan the enchancments you need without WIKI.
2) if you toggle the checkbox that shows all enhancements, you get ALL enhancements all the race enhancements that you cant use or get anyway which is very annoying ( like all spell enhancements AA enhancements etc) . removing from view enhancements that you cant take should be first priority.


thnx

[LeLoric]

This is the right time to power up bards, rangers, clerics, favored souls, etc... cant wait to see what's in store!

There's certainly an uneasy feeling in my stomach because they are messing with fire here. However, if Turbine has learned the biggest wants in each class' communities, this may be a very much appreciated, very excellent upgrade to the game. I'm cautiously upbeat.

Paladins is not spelled favored souls. I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up as they are extremely powerful right now.

[mystafyi]

I can't imagine favored souls getting a power up

Maybe a PrE that is ddostore only... I can't imagine turbine making so many changes without selling something in the ddostore

[maddmatt70]

I concur Madfloyd the UI for enhancements is terrible and changing that makes alot of sense. The UI is so cumbersome that it makes the enhancement process less fun. Now will this tree format be very different? I do not know, but I definitely agree that the presentation of the enhancements is poor. I like your enhancement system other then its presentation so be careful where you tread on the rest. Working on class balance and prestige enhancements is exciting. I like that Turbine is investing in character development because for me it is one of the best aspects of ddo. I think this will likley be a change for the better, but reserve judgement..