Remove the hit point display in parties.

[Gregen]

At first I liked the update that let you see everyone's HP. It made it easier to play as a healer. But the more I played after the update, the less I liked it.

The real problem is a vast amount of immature, pompous players in DDO. But that can't be helped. The next best thing is to remove the feature that allows everyone to see your HP. I'll tell you what I mean, if you listen to my case. And please, don't just skim through it.

I've been playing DDO for about 2 years. Not as long as many of the players here, but long enough to have experience in the game. I always build my characters to be efficient. I aim for maximum output, so I don't focus *heavily* on hit points (except for on my tank). I've always carried what I felt was an appropriate amount of hit points and has been working for me, no problem.
Here's what's interesting: One of the characters I play is a cleric. I created it purely for healing and buffing (and turning undead). As a character that does not battle, it's not focused on hit points.
BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.

I have 7 characters, and on none of them have I ever been told or suggested that I'm a poor player. I've always been efficient and effective. After the update, I was fairly surprised at the average HP people have. On all my characters, I could see after the update I typically have fewer hit points than the majority of all players. That's not to say I always have the least HP in parties, that's not the case. I'm not trying to be boas'tful, but I'm a good player. I know I am. So it's quite bothersome to receive judgement of my ability based solely on my HP.

I'd even go so far as to say this warps the mentality of SOME players as to what is important. I believe having an exorbitant amount of HP is becoming overrated. From what I've heard, people are even changing their builds just to be accepted in groups. It throws off balance of the game.
Since with this new system, judgement is more based on this immediate display, and less on the actual performance of a player. For example, a fighter could pour all his stat points into CON and take nothing but Toughness for all his feats. He would have a large ration of hit points and would most likely be respected among other players. But this same character could hit like a weak child, and have very little impact. A lot of people wouldn't even notice and just assume he's pro by looking at his HP.

A couple weeks ago I even changed my ranger a little bit to get more HP just so I could easier be accepted into shroud runs and complete my green steel weapon. I *REALLY* want to emphasize the fact that I was having no trouble with shroud runs, yet AFTER the update, I had to DECREASE my DPS to attain superfluous hit points.

For me, it's a shame. I like the concept of seeing how much HP everyone has, for greater improving party efficiency. But it seems like *some* people are too daft to understand what efficiency really is.
It wouldn't be a problem if I had friends that played with the same ideals, but I don't. All I have is the community. Again, while not everyone is like what I'm describing, there are enough people to ruin the game for me.

Am I the only one meeting this conflict? If it's affecting a large number of players this way, I would like to see the HP display removed from the party, and further the balance of the game. If I'm the only one who feels this way, then I'll accept myself as singled out, move on, and probably never put another minute or dime into DDO. I could change my builds, but I'd rather not play the way I do not want to play. It is simply not fun.

[pSINNa]

Sometimes if i'm in a party (usually a raid) that's taking more then a few minutes to fill, i'll turn it on for the sake of curiosity.

Then i turn it off again, i find it distracting.

I find it especially distracting if i'm on a healing class - really - i don't want to know! .

If people are obsessing on it, then you'll probably find those people are not the kind you want to party up with too much anyway.

Case in point, i jumped on a pug shroud the other day, which had "minimum 400hp" in the LFM becuase i was curious as to what sort of vibe/leadership the person running it had.

There was no leadership, another assume everyone knows the deal and will automatically do the raid for me type deal, and in part 4 one of the healers proceeds to say "stay in for the blade" and from that point no more heals hit the party (he admitted later that he forgot to turn quicken on, and hit mass heal at that point xD).

Everyone died, except the arcane, the only person in the party with less then 400hp.

I thought it was hilarious.

Don't let it bother you, it's just the Myddo rubbish all over again, and people will get over it, or reasonable players will learn to avoid them.

Chin up, Coit out~

[Absolute-Omniscience]

It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.

[krackythehoodedone]

I understand your thinking.

It really depends what you are doing and how you do it.

Just to draw conclusions about anyone on the ammount of hit points they have is rather judgemental.

If youve solo healed my Shroud and it turns out you have fewer hit points than i expected it wouldnt stop me inviting you.

It is also about how others deal with the information presented to them.

Did a Shroud last week with a Rogue with 180 Hit Points. No one booted him or gave him any grief. But the party did as a whole have a discussion about how to max out hit points by using items etc etc. He got thru without dieing btw.

As always their is another side. Hit Points are important and you should do everything you can to maximise them. Obviously survivability is pretty key for a healer.

Their are also one or two quests (EADQ2 springs to mind) where you need a certain number of hit points to survive. You take three healers in their with under 350 each and you are pretty much doomed before you start

[slimkj]

BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.

Do you really want to be helping (by being the healer) the kind of people that kick you for not having their desired level of HP? The way I see it, you just got saved from grouping with some idiots.

[Wildseed]

please see new thing bad, old thing good....

Personally I'd like to be booted for my hp, didn't need that party anyway. Let's me know who's really in the game just cause they want to group with uber players just like themselves. Not everyone's a min-maxer, that's a good thing. Consequently I like the new thing so it's good for me. Now on the other hand, if you have low hp, and you DIE in every quest once or twice then you might want to rethink your choice of low hitpoints (Met a ranger like this, he died so much I went to Myddo (btw folks can check your hps here if they're interested so it's really moot) just to see why he died so much. He had 10 base con, no items at the time, so... that was why, to which I told him con is not a dump stat although it doesn't need to be uber, on an elf I recommend at least 13 and eat a 1 tome to get to 14 base)... but sorry, that's a tangent, so ...

/not signed

[aristarchus1000]

I honestly don't understand why someone's hitpoints should be any secret.

If people don't like your hitpoint total you can either change it or find another group.

I find the immediately availability of hitpoints to be extremely helpful. It made healing my last ToD a total breeze to know exactly how much hitpoints my tank and everyone else had.

/not signed.

[PNellesen]

I don't have a problem with the HP display, though I find it distracting. I'll do the same "out of curiosity" thing at the start too, then turn it off once I know who's going to need some paying attention to and who's not. If I'm doing a Shroud and see that the other healer-type (if there is one) has << 300 HP, I may keep more of an eye on them than I would normally do (Harry has a knack for hitting the healers with a couple fireballs in quick succession) but otherwise I don't really care what anyone's HP is - a guy with 700HP can be more of a drain on my resources than the 200HP Elf Wiz with no fort, depending on how they play.

[Memek]

I like the new HP display. More information makes the game more fun.

Also, other players arent obliged to group with you. If the HP display makes them find out about your build and decide they dont want to party with your character, that is their right. Whether that is justified or not.

You can always make your own group.

[Syllph]

Personally I really like the HP display. There was a ranger I ran with a few times who dies in most quests and always said I don't know how they burnt through 500 HP so quickly. Time and time again he told us his 500-600 HP range it changed depending on the day apparently. Happily, his myddo was bugged with 13 names all which said archived.

He was one of the first on the forums asking for it not to show HP. Can you guess why?

When HP were finally displayed I didn't see him on for a while. Then finally were in a shroud together and his 500 HP looked more like 135. When I sent him a tell asking where his 500 HP were he said he had respeced the night before.

Showing the HP had allowed me the freedom to know a little more about why the guy in my group might be dying. Now given I won't kick someone from the group for having what -I- consider less than appropriate HP. I will, however, kick him when he dies over and over and I believe it's due to crummy HP.

Before the display I simply had to say it was bad luck. Now I can say, really you respeced out close to 400 HP?

[AestorTheKnight]

I agree with the OP.

Its one of the most intolerant and mean things Ive seen in DDO to date. Players discriminating against each other for their HP count. I really think it was an insensitive and careless move on behalf of the Devs to introduce HP count on the Bars. A move that plays straight into the hands of griefers and jerks.

MyDDO was quite sufficient.

I too would prefer to have the HP/SP count on bars removed. But hey thats not gonna happen.

[cpito]

Perhaps this is the developers way of saying that con is not a dumpstat?

[dunklezhan]

Do you really want to be helping (by being the healer) the kind of people that kick you for not having their desired level of HP? The way I see it, you just got saved from grouping with some idiots.

This, mostly.

I've got some characters with bags of HP, some with less. Since the update I had someone demand to know what my Con score was because 'you're a little light on hitpoints for a fighter' - this was after a wipe on an elite run, two levels over my actual character level where I was not only the lowest level in the group, but also the last person standing. This expert had been the one who dropped first (actually the cause of the wipe since Mr Superwizard had just dived into a room full of deurgar and aggroed the lot). As it happens I'd been on my way back to the shrine with everyone's stones when the rate of arrows hitting me finally exceeded the rate at which I could drink from my ample supply of CSW pots. I mentioned that fact and this expert players said 'well that would have been me if it hadn't been for lag'. Right.

I've been in an Amrath group before the update where my sorc kept dying. After the third death the group asked what the hell my HP and Con were, clearly expecting some horribly low numbers which is not the case. I told them. They asked whether I had x, y, z. Which I did. They shrugged and moved on - and I stayed well back, clearly this group liked to pull huge swarms of mobs, and I was too close to them without the skill to survive. I'm not ashamed of that, how else am I supposed to learn my limits?

Both circumstances show what happens when you assume HP are the be all and end all of survivability whether before or after the 'visibility' of HP in the UI. Now, when I go to shroud on my elven AA, I expect to get criticism - its a ranged character so I'd have been criticised anyway, and now because I've focussed on having decent damage output and mitigation over my raw HP that's just another thing to pick on.

But I'm not going to let people prejudging me on a visible HP score stop me playing. I didn't let it stop me when people could MyDDO me, and I won't let it stop me now. Its their problem, not mine, if they're so goal oriented they've forgotten how to relax their sphincters and enjoy themselves from time to time. I'll find a group with guildies, or start my own PuG, or whatever.

Personally, I like to see the HP totals. Lots of low numbers means adjusting tactics to cope, not kicking people. The problem is people's obsession with hitting everything as fast as possible and DPS DPS DPS. This means they've either forgotten or don't care how to apply team work. I'd rather play with you, but if you wanna rush off and solo the quest go ahead. I'll amble along behind and pike the chests after you've cleared them for me.

Other people's ******ry is other people's problem - the game is big enough for me to find fun not in their company.

[Sweyn]

TL ; DR version?

[dunklezhan]

TL ; DR version?

Oh that's easy. People jump to conclusions based on very little evidence. This is not news.

[Xenostrata]

I've not seen a single person booted from a group for having too little hp. The closest I have come was a ToD run in which a ~240 hp wizard joined, he was advised about how difficult it would be to keep him up with such low health in ToD, and he promptly dropped group - and then sent the leader a /tell about how he was going to report the whole group for harasment, so I was not really worried about losing him.

I can say that when I'm on recon duty, it helps immensely to know that my tank has 800 hp and that I should hold off on my recon until he is 3/8 down to save sp. And, while levelling my new cleric, the huge hp gap between some level 6-9 players (50 hp rogues with 190 hp fighters) makes it so that I'm not wasting the same cure serious on the rogue as I am on the fighter.

As much as I feel that people with less hp do tend to be less of a drain on the healer (I have generally discovered that the 900~ hp types take damage with mad abandon and the 300~ hp types have learned proper mitigation), there really is no reason for any class to have less than 250 hp at cap. Especially characters like your healer type - if he is focused only on healing, then what exactly would you sacrifice to boost hp? A healbot should have MORE hp than a battle cleric, since it has more stat points and gear slots that can be used on health.

[Zenthalas]

At first I liked the update that let you see everyone's HP. It made it easier to play as a healer. But the more I played after the update, the less I liked it.

The real problem is a vast amount of immature, pompous players in DDO. But that can't be helped. The next best thing is to remove the feature that allows everyone to see your HP. I'll tell you what I mean, if you listen to my case. And please, don't just skim through it.

I've been playing DDO for about 2 years. Not as long as many of the players here, but long enough to have experience in the game. I always build my characters to be efficient. I aim for maximum output, so I don't focus *heavily* on hit points (except for on my tank). I've always carried what I felt was an appropriate amount of hit points and has been working for me, no problem.
Here's what's interesting: One of the characters I play is a cleric. I created it purely for healing and buffing (and turning undead). As a character that does not battle, it's not focused on hit points.
BEFORE the update, I got so much love and praise. People would tell me that I'm a great healer, they wish more people played like I did, and people would frequently request to play with me.
AFTER the update, I join a group and sometimes (not always, but frequently enough to cause grief for me) people will be so quick to judge just by looking at my hit points that they would just boot me from the group.

I have 7 characters, and on none of them have I ever been told or suggested that I'm a poor player. I've always been efficient and effective. After the update, I was fairly surprised at the average HP people have. On all my characters, I could see after the update I typically have fewer hit points than the majority of all players. That's not to say I always have the least HP in parties, that's not the case. I'm not trying to be boas'tful, but I'm a good player. I know I am. So it's quite bothersome to receive judgement of my ability based solely on my HP.

I'd even go so far as to say this warps the mentality of SOME players as to what is important. I believe having an exorbitant amount of HP is becoming overrated. From what I've heard, people are even changing their builds just to be accepted in groups. It throws off balance of the game.
Since with this new system, judgement is more based on this immediate display, and less on the actual performance of a player. For example, a fighter could pour all his stat points into CON and take nothing but Toughness for all his feats. He would have a large ration of hit points and would most likely be respected among other players. But this same character could hit like a weak child, and have very little impact. A lot of people wouldn't even notice and just assume he's pro by looking at his HP.

A couple weeks ago I even changed my ranger a little bit to get more HP just so I could easier be accepted into shroud runs and complete my green steel weapon. I *REALLY* want to emphasize the fact that I was having no trouble with shroud runs, yet AFTER the update, I had to DECREASE my DPS to attain superfluous hit points.

For me, it's a shame. I like the concept of seeing how much HP everyone has, for greater improving party efficiency. But it seems like *some* people are too daft to understand what efficiency really is.
It wouldn't be a problem if I had friends that played with the same ideals, but I don't. All I have is the community. Again, while not everyone is like what I'm describing, there are enough people to ruin the game for me.

Am I the only one meeting this conflict? If it's affecting a large number of players this way, I would like to see the HP display removed from the party, and further the balance of the game. If I'm the only one who feels this way, then I'll accept myself as singled out, move on, and probably never put another minute or dime into DDO. I could change my builds, but I'd rather not play the way I do not want to play. It is simply not fun.

Personally I'd like to know if my healer is going to get 1 shotted w/ a meteor swarm. Soo yeah /not signed keep it. MINIMUM 14 CON it's not hard to do. Your not doing "maximum output DPS" or hjeals if your dead.

[Gorbadoc]

If people are obsessing on it, then you'll probably find those people are not the kind you want to party up with too much anyway...

Don't let it bother you, it's just the Myddo rubbish all over again, and people will get over it, or reasonable players will learn to avoid them.

Chin up, Coit out~

This. Except the "Coit out" bit, because I don't know what it means, though it sounds like something I wouldn't do in DDO.

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

There's a big difference between 290 and 400. Greater False Life, +6 Con item, 16 base Con, Toughness, and Racial Toughness 1-2 should get any class into the 300s, but it won't break 400 for the lower-hp classes.

Of course, they can get more HP with epic items and greensteel, but it's silly to think badly of a player who runs The Shroud without greensteel-- if nothing else, how were you expecting them to get greensteel?

[Xenostrata]

It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

This is the HP breakdown on my reasonably geared level 20 Drow Sorcerer, Wyllywyl:
14 base con
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exc con ToD ring
=24 con
80 base HD
20 Heroic Durability
140 Con Bonus
30 GFL
10 Argo favor
20 Minos
22 Toughness
20 toughness enhancements
45 GS
=387 base HP. Rage puts me barely over 400, and this is effectively the MAXIMUM possible hp, barring stupid ideas like putting level ups into Con instead of Cha or me ever finding a +4 tome (and, tbh, I'd rather sell the tome out of the chest for a stack of reds than take an extra 20 hp)

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

[~jradnut]

This really shouldn't be an issue.

Everybody should max out con at the expense of DPS.

The reason is obvious...so we can all stand around whiffling at Harry!

Harry needs AC (air conditioning)