Remove the hit point display in parties.

[herzkos]

The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

lmao. 16 base con on a Drow sorc is pretty unordinary mate.
And on a first life sorc, how long did you have to run at level 20 to get there?
litany not extraordinary? pshaw. oh plus your exceptional +3 con item.
thats minus 4 con to your total. Then go ahead and remove your 45 from
GS because on a first life character you're not going to get it til well after you're level
20(unless you hold off on leveling or specifically farm shroud and only shroud).

please mate, be realistic for the average player.

[Drekisen]

Not entering the debate...

But with a 342 ( unbuffed ) hit points rogue you can live and thrive quite well in epics...
Up to and including epic DQ and Epic VON 6. I'm doing that all the time. ( that's actually my main epic character )

Wrong wrong wrong....that is just not enough HP...rouges should have a bare minimum 500 HP unbuffed for Epics.....


NAH....just kidding...trying to get you into the debate

Notice how I spelled rouge incorrectly too...I did that on purpose

[Xenostrata]

UMADBRO?

Lol in my rebuttal i said "Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable." So i'm not counting +4 tomes, i'm not counting PL, and i'm not counting ship buffs. I'm not gonna get into a discussion on what's the ideal gear slots for a sorc, whatever floats your boat man.

I put +4 tomes there as an example, and admitted that I had forgotten the yugo con potion.

Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid

[gloopygloop]

I put +4 tomes there as an example, and admitted that I had forgotten the yugo con potion.

Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid

Except for the Litany and the 16 Con instead of 14, what did his multiple TR's give him that a first life character couldn't reasonably get?

Yugo pots aren't insanely hard to get to - even a fairly weak Sorcerer can still semi-pike its way through Amrath quests as a buff-bot, passing out Displacement and Haste and flinging Heal scrolls at party members. At the end of the quest, those DoTs work very nicely against the end boss. Obviously, that character isn't going to be soloing Amrath on Elite, but that's what party members are for.

[Sweyn]

lmao. 16 base con on a Drow sorc is pretty unordinary mate.
And on a first life sorc, how long did you have to run at level 20 to get there?
litany not extraordinary? pshaw. oh plus your exceptional +3 con item.
thats minus 4 con to your total. Then go ahead and remove your 45 from
GS because on a first life character you're not going to get it til well after you're level
20(unless you hold off on leveling or specifically farm shroud and only shroud).

please mate, be realistic for the average player.

Please note that no where in that post did i mention that's the HP breakdown for a new player. Stop jumping to conclusions.

[Sweyn]

I know, I shouldn't feed the troll. Blah. This one is just too funny.

Suppose I write, "This post is about chicken pot pies. Cooking times vary greatly." By Sweyn's thinking, I'm not talking about chicken pot pies with that second sentence. I could be talking about ANYTHING! Maybe I'm saying that pizza cooking times vary greatly. Because, ya know, the words that came before a sentence don't matter!

The difference between your example and my quote is that you mentioned chicken pot pies prior to cooking times. Therefore, it's inferred you are talking about the pies when you mention cooking time. However, Xen said nothing about new players in the first paragraph, which is also where he said it's the maximum possible HP for a sorc. See the difference? No? Oh well, i tried...

-Sweyn

[Sweyn]

Also, as someone aptly pointed out, rebutting my argument on how high a new player should be reasonably expected to reach with a gear layout of a multiple-TRd sorc? Kinda stupid

I'm pretty sure i never compared a geared out TR sorc to a new player. In fact, the only thing i said in this thread about new players is that it shouldn't be hard to achieve 300+ HP. It's funny how everyone is getting their panties twisted up and flaming me for "My comparison of new players," when in fact i was never talking about them at all. The only reason i posted was to show you through a HP breakdown that your quoted "~400 HP" was not the max HP for a drow sorc (without putting level ups into con etc..). It's everyone else in this thread that is jumping to conclusions and putting words in my mouth that i had nothing to do with.

I guess it just boils down to a lack of reading comprehension

[herzkos]

Please note that no where in that post did i mention that's the HP breakdown for a new player. Stop jumping to conclusions.

if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.

hmmm, something about the above statement doesn't seem right to me, but meh i'm
probably jumping to conclusions if I go any further.

[Delssar]

keep the hp in the bar, I like showing off my fighters hp (279 @ level 8){28 point build} and seeing what others hp is like when Im on my more hp gimpy toons. Its nice to compair

[~Cavalier9999]

/not signed

I wouldn't kick anyone for lack of hp. Well, maybe in extreme cases, but almost never. However, when on my divine, I like to know if there is someone that may need extra attention. Also, it helps to conserve spell points. A 600 hp fighter at 50% can probably take another hit or three before I throw a heal. A 350 hp fighter at 50% will need it sooner.

Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything

[Vellrad]

Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything

There are couple abilities restoring spell points in game.

[gloopygloop]

Now, the SP numbers, I see no real use there. Then again, doesn't hurt anything

I like it. I have a fairly well geared Wizard and a fairly well geared FvS, but I've seen a few FvS with around 600 more SP than my FvS normally carries and a few Wizards with around 300 more SP than my Wizard usually carries. It inspired me to go look around for more sources of SP.

That's a good thing. That's exactly what I had hoped would happen for people when HP became visible, except that it happened to me - something that I didn't really expect.

[Sweyn]

if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.

I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

[cpito]

if everyone other than you is jumping to the same conclusion it stands to reason that
everyone else is wrong and you are right.

hmmm, something about the above statement doesn't seem right to me, but meh i'm
probably jumping to conclusions if I go any further.

Only if by "everyone" you mean the few players involved in this thread. Personally I thought Sweyn was doing a good job handling it on his own but if you need second party validation for what he claims, consider him validated.

[cpito]

at the very least entertaining if they can actually stay alive and humorous if they can't

That's only if they themselves can be humorous about it

[Xenostrata]

I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

That's not the problem. The problem is that you then used those numbers to argue against the part that did explicitly target HP on new players.

I'll admit that I forgot Yugo potions when judging what is reasonably accessible after some farming at 20. However, using multiple past lives, and debatable gear choices (trading archmagi, SP9, and 25 epic tokens+5 raid tokens does not seem like a good deal for 6 AP and 20 HP) to try to prove one half of what I said wrong while completely ignoring the whole point of the post was silly. It doesn't matter in what order I put my paragraphs, that's called artistic license :P

The point of the first post was to show how dificult it can be for new players to reach 300+ hp, not to argue over what the theoretical max possible HP on a drow sorc could be. If it was, I would've included barb past lives, +4 con tome, and a +7 con item.

Edit: I would also point out that not only does Wyllywyl have the Litany, he also has the tokens and the slot for the +1 exc con. However, I made him CG at character creation (One of my first toons, and wanted to mirror my PnP alignment choices). Even if I was TN, I would still not use the Litany. However, I intend to grab some Wizard lives then hop back to sorcerer, and if my final life is human (can't decide between human and WF) then I'll eat my +4 cha tome and wear the litany.

[Drekisen]

I know this may be straying from the OP topic a little and I am sorry for the derail but....come on!!! this is supposed to be fun....having the 150HP squish in the level 20 epic or raid makes things....interesting at the very least entertaining if they can actually stay alive and humorous if they can't

[gloopygloop]

The point of the first post was to show how dificult it can be for new players to reach 300+ hp, not to argue over what the theoretical max possible HP on a drow sorc could be. If it was, I would've included barb past lives, +4 con tome, and a +7 con item.

I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

[herzkos]

I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

now that is a fair assessment of what can reasonably be expected of a new character.

[Xenostrata]

I can absoultely relate to the struggle to reach 400 HP as soon as you hit 20 on a first life character, but it really isn't hard for new players to reach 300+ HP on ANY character.

20 Heroic
80 Sorcerer levels
22 Toughness
20 Toughness enhancements
20 Toughness item (Minos)
30 Greater False Life
120 from Con 14 + 6 Item + 2 Tome (seriously - start with 14 Con even on a Drow. What other stat do you really need besides Cha, Con and enough Str to not get enfeebled to incap?)
Total 312 HP standing straight in front of a Beholder with no ship buffs running.

I didn't even include a Shroud item in this list or Draconic Vitality. And even the first character that someone plays in DDO can at least make a tier 2 Shroud HP item by the time that they hit 20 if they choose to, so there's another 25 HP.

...and yet I still see Rangers with 180 HP and Clerics with 210 HP handing out -10% XP prizes to the people that group with them.

I mostly agree with that analysis, but I can remember a lot about what it was like playing near and at endgame with little experience. When I found a +2 tome of any type, I would prefer to sell it over using it, even con or cha since my plat was usually in the 100k-150k range and the idea of more than doubling it off of a single item seemed way more awesome than +20 hp. For GS ingredients, I spent a while before crafting anything since it took a while to decide what to make and I wanted to get a feel for the Shroud first.

Also, note that since we are talking about casters, it is very likely that their first GS is an sp item, not an hp item. I know my first GS was triple pos sp goggles, and the hp item didn't come til much later since I grabbed a +3 tome on my first completion list instead of a cleanser (yeah, I know - stupid decision, but I was still new :P)