Remove the hit point display in parties.

[d1mitri]

Showing HP is pretty **** important in healing. I don't know how you guys did it before... but I come from games where I played A LOT of twitch healing for PvP and hp numbers help out a lot. Do you throw a small heal, or big one, fast one or slow one, do you cast more prot on target, what prots do you cast, etc.

I started a low level fvs and it helps a lot. I can decide to turn empower on or off, quicken on or off, what heal to use, etc. I can figure all these questions and take preventive actions before someone taking a big hit and dying because I miscalculated...

[herzkos]

I simply posted the HP breakdown for a Drow sorcerer in response to Xen's claim of ~400 being the MAXIMUM. How is that wrong or right? lol.....

did you read xeno's whole post? or like the OP was it

TL ; DR version?

I'll refresh your memory with a snipped version of it that doesn't include the part you already quoted.

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?
/snip

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

i'm sure i already hit the tl;dr threshold but i'm pretty sure that this is the reason I (and some others) expect
anyone quoting him to put it in a new player perspective.
sure, we all know that sorcs can have 500+hps at end game and the grass is green and the sky is blue.
that all goes pretty much without saying.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Let's look at some numbers, shall we?

This is the HP breakdown on my reasonably geared level 20 Drow Sorcerer, Wyllywyl:
14 base con
+6 item
+2 tome
+2 exc con ToD ring
=24 con
80 base HD
20 Heroic Durability
140 Con Bonus
30 GFL
10 Argo favor
20 Minos
22 Toughness
20 toughness enhancements
45 GS
=387 base HP. Rage puts me barely over 400, and this is effectively the MAXIMUM possible hp, barring stupid ideas like putting level ups into Con instead of Cha or me ever finding a +4 tome (and, tbh, I'd rather sell the tome out of the chest for a stack of reds than take an extra 20 hp)

Especially for new players, some of these things won't be attainable. Looking at it this way,
No exc con (-20)
No +2 tome (-20)(200k is a lot for a new player. I know I sold the first +2 tome I found; +1 to DCs didn't seem to be worth doubling my current Plat.)
No GS (-45)
No Argo favor (-10)(debatable, yes, but I find most new players either don't have the packs required [GH is really expensive] or are unwilling to grind the favor)
387-95=292. So don't hate on the sub-300 hp toons in content like Shroud or epic carnival.

I'll freely admit that Wyllywyl was my first character over level 9, and when I first hit cap he had an impressive 212 hp. After a strongly needed LR and quick trip through GH, I was just over 300 hp standing. And it was more than enough to survive in the quests I ran. Seriously, whatever I say, I have been in the OPs shoes - Wyllywyl routinely ran Shroud, VON/Carnival/Sentinel epics, and Shavarath with HP in the low 300s, and I rarely if ever died. Knowing you can't take a hit generally means you learn quickly how to avoid taking it in the first place.

The catch here is that drow sorcerer is not a build that a new player should play as it takes exceptional gearing to get enough HP to survive current end game content.

I've been leveling a palemaster recently and as I'm fairly blaze about HP originally I planned on not taking toughness until level 12 (for vampire form).

However, 1 searing light in elite bloody crypt convinced me that I had to make some adjustments so I went and swapped in toughness and got another item or two and suddenly my HP jumped from 85 to 150 or something (at level 8). Certainly makes things a lot easier.

I've been pugging a little bit and often myDDO players that join my party in downtime if they have low HP and then give them some advice on fixing up their HP value. Particularly in the current state of the game where everyone wants to run hard/elite for bravery it is simply required that you invest in HP at all levels lest a spellcaster drop lightning bolt or another nuke on you and take you out in 1 hit (appropriate resists not withstanding).

I was quite happy yesterday to help a level 7 wizard more than double his HP and even passed on a shard so he could swap in toughness.

What AO said about the ease with which most builds can get over 400 HP is spot on. 14 base con (or 16+ on arcanes) + appropriate gears easily gets you over. If you want to play a drow arcane then avoid sorcerer until you have some PL's and gear and go palemaster instead (please!)

I sympathise with the OP. People will be judgemental but if he sticks to minimum 6 point investment into con (arcanes 10+), gets level appropriate gear (+6 con item, GFL and Minos for 20s at least) then no one will mind him and you can do that without sacrificing any DPS or efficiency.

[Astraghal]

^this 100%

Add that they dont know how the game works. Instant insults without the slightest willingness to reconcile or make an agreement that we can all benefit from. ...

Story mode:
*Just yesterday the "mighty" wizard i have just previously grouped posts another lfm: "DPS needed" .
*Dumb me (Sorcerer): Alright, nice, another sweet epic run, lets do this.
*1 sec, insta decline.
*Sending tell: Why cannot i join ?
*Answer: The group agrees we need team players! You zerged ahead of us the last time.
*Dumb me: :O?
*Sending tell: explaining whys of my "zerging"
*Receiving: insults in forms of name calling/degradeing comments out of context, the usual kids stuff...
*Later figured: i zerged because i used wind dance thru the non combative areas of Partycrashers to save some boring walk. (I must be the worst team player for doing that).

I didnt want to further complicate things claiming that i basically saved them from a very likely wipe/another 10 minute mob beating. But effectively i did save them that much.

My ignore list is full, not like it matters since the game still lets you join to/accept ignored people into your group so youll end up meeting the same insults again and again...

Also most of them have 20 alts so you arent really saved by an ignore.

I actually find it a relief when I'm the last to join an Epic Partycrashers and find when I enter the group has already half finished. I expect it.

[Caliban]

The MAXIMUM HP? Lol that's way far off. My drow sorc has 507, without anything "extraordinary."

16 - Base
6 - Item
3 - Exceptional
2 - Tome
1 - Litany
----------
28 Con

80 - Sorcerer
20 - Base
180 - Con
30 - GFL
20 - Minos
10 - Argo favor
42 - Toughness
45 - GS
20 - Rage
40 - Yugo Con pot
20 - Airship
-------------
Easily sustained 99% of the time = 507 HP.

^ Sure, minus 20 from not being a double TR, and Minus 20 if you die and lose the airship buff, that's still 467 on a Drow Sorcerer, 100% self buffed and 100% sustainable. ~400 HP is not "effectively the MAXIMUM" hit points for a Drow sorcerer.

...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

[gloopygloop]

...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Posts like his are OUTSTANDING at showing people what can be achieved if people put effort and resources into the desired outcome. Obviously, a first life Sorcerer isn't going to have many of those things as soon as he or she hits 20, but many of those are entirely reasonable sources of HP to look for on a first life. There are a fair number of sources of +1 exceptional Con and if you get a second ToD ring, there's not much better that you could put on it. Yugo pots are not unreasonable - put up an LFM for Elite amrath quests and just be willing to leave the quest and reenter for the completion if they party wipes or if you need to refill your blue bars at the tavern. A Greensteel HP item with Heavy Fort or Concordant Opposition is the item that will provide the most benefit for most casters as their first GS item.

Out of all of the things listed, the only ones that are unreasonable to strive for (in my opinion) are the Litany and the higher starting Con for a first life character. Everything else is moderately challenging at most. Obviously, people shouldn't (and don't) demand that level of HP from a 4 HP/level character, but knowing that you can break 500 HP on a Sorcerer might inspire some more Rangers and Paladins to get more than 400 HP on their characters and more Fighters to get more than 500 HP.

It really isn't that hard to get a reasonable number of HP for any character. Having some posts where an unreasonably large number of HP is shown with a breakdown of where those HP come from just provides an opportunity for people to see what *can* be done if a player chooses.

[Sarisa]

I'm pretty understanding and accepting of new people, as long as they show a desire to improve their equipment and play. It's the people who sit at 220 HP, expect the world to cater to them, and have no interest or desire to raise that total that are the real problem.

There are not really a whole lot of places I have firm minimums.

Melees in Mass Heal environments need to be able to survive between Mass Heals. For a Rogue or monk, who has Improved Evasion, and good saves, against Harry or Garos another heavy casting boss, 300's plenty for a new player. 280's pushing it, but many will probably survive provided they don't roll too many 1's.

For a low reflex non-evasive class against the same boss, you're going to take a good deal more damage from the added spell damage, so naturally 300 isn't going to be enough to survive between Mass Heal's. 400's manageable, 450's good. The lower reflex classes who might be in melee range, aside from some Artificers and non-splashed Bards, are all ones who have at least a d8 per level, so it's not too hard to get that HP total even on a first life. You just may need to spend more AP on Racial and Class Toughness's than you would with better equipment.

For Epic Demon Queen, and Epic VoN6, due to the u11 raid changes, it's good to have 450+ HP if you're in melee range of Velah, and 400+ HP for anyone facing Lailat. That's mostly due to making sure you can live long enough to survive between the Mass Heals/Cures, to avoid having to have the healers drink Mnemonics. Someone with lower HP can run it, and survive, but you WILL cause more resource usage.

For many epics where Disintegrate is cast, you can get by with low HP but I prefer people with high enough HP that they can take a Disintegrate and live. That saves time, SP rebuffing, and dead people do no DPS. I've seen upwards of 450 damage from the caster wildmen in eADQ1, the Kobolds in eVoN1, and from Malicia in Big Top. It can be hard to reach that HP total on a first life, but it's good to work toward it.

As for the breakdowns, it's good to see what's available. It's better if they're marked with how difficult or time consuming it is to get each one, so that newer players (assuming they actually read the forums) can see and prioritize getting certain things.

Greater False Life belts drop fairly often, and there are often a few on the AH for reasonable prices. Rings are a bit rarer. Anyone can get one of these for even a small amount of farming for plat.

CON+6 items are also common drops, and there are often a few on the AH for reasonable prices. Again, rings are a bit rarer or more expensive. At higher levels, one of the CON+6/GFL belts from Amrath are well worth the time farming.

Toughness is currently only available on three non-epic items. I don't know if it's craftable yet. The Minos Legens, which is a great set consolidator because of it having Heavy Fort also, is the best of these due to the low level and the low amount of competition for that slot. Thaark Bracers, and the Quorforged Docent are your other choices. All three require pack purchases, but IQ and Necro 4 are both very good purchases for levelling and loot. For someone who reaches 20 with nothing but the Vale, they won't have access to Toughness, but hopefully they see it would be worth purchasing and running one of the Toughness item packs.

The Toughness feat is something almost anyone should have. For 1 feat and 3 AP, anyone can get 42 HP at cap. Some classes or races can of course get more. Only the most highly experienced and geared people can get away with not having Toughness (or the now equivalent Barb past life). Toughness enhancements, while they can be costly, are the easiest ways to boost your HP if your class/race supports them.

Argonesson Favour requires Gianthold (Reaver's Reach isn't enough), so it's rather tied to one pack. It is, however, a good but expensive pack, and excellent for levelling so it's a worthwhile purchase for most people.

A tier 2 Greensteel HP item is not terribly difficult and time consuming to get. To complete it to tier 3 is time consuming and costly to do, but tier 2 is not that bad. For someone who is still learning, and expresses a willingness to learn and build themselves, you may even be given small and medium ingredients to make your item. It's not +45 HP, but it'll still be +25 HP which is worthwhile.

Yugoloth potions are one of the more difficult items to get. It's best if someone can contribute, rather than have to be pulled through those quests. Due to pretty much requiring the ToD raid to be done on at least normal to get enough favour, you really need to be equipped decently well before. This is not something that is easily within reach to a fresh level 20.

Starting with at least 14 CON is strongly recommended to everyone. 16 CON is good if you can fit it in. A new 28-point build may not be able to do so, due to the tighter stat requirements, especially if going with a TWF build or a "MAD" class like Monk or Paladin. Overall, CON does help, but not quite to the same extent as some other items. It's still good to fit as much as you can, but remember that 28 point builds are way more strapped for stats than the rest of us are.

A +2 CON tome is useful for anyone who is planning on staying 20 for a while (say for raiding and acquiring equipment). This is available to anyone, but can be rather expensive for a new player. It's worth it when you can afford to buy one, or when you get 1,750 favour for the free BtC one in the Harbour. This is not something I expect every new player to have, but I feel they should be working for one either for their current life or to use on their TR.

[R0cksteady]

I find it kind of funny that TC is a divine that only focuses on healing, yet somehow was a sought after cleric. But hey, some people like that I guess.

Either way, at level 20 if you have under 400 HP, no matter of race or class, you're just not building right. Sure you can survive if you're good enough, but why build that way? It's extremely simple to get half decent hitpoints in this game with toughness feat and basic gear (+6 con item, +2 tome, GFL, Minos).

Especially when you build a toon so one dimensionally as a heal bot, plenty of room for con.

Hell, my cleric has NO epic gear, maxed healing ability, 39 DCs in Enchant and Necro, SOME melee ability and 500 HP. If you're not worrying about DCs, melee, or generally being useful outside of healing, how can you NOT have plenty of room for con and a toughness feat? Actually, you could probably take like 3 toughness feats and all the feats useful to healing.

[taurean430]

...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Ruling out the inflammatory portions... It clearly states in his post that he started with 16 base con. I did the same on my wizzy. Furthermore, I'd say that it's not unreasonable to expect a minimum investment ( 14 or better con, GFL, +6 con, +2 con tome) out of a new character wanting to set foot in raids. Particularly ones with high amounts of area of effect damage.

I cited EVon6 as an example. Post recent changes, I'd been asked to effectively tolerate a low hp toon when I am on my healing toons. It's always the same, they die multiple times and try to blame me for not giving them 'special attention' However, I know that either of my toons can heal in the current state of that raid and keep the party good until the dragon is between 25-30% health. The other one or two designated party healers are in reserve spot healing with scrolls until then. Paying 'special attention' to players who do this force me to drink mana potions or go on without them. I choose the latter of the options, though I have been known to send true resurrections when I have the time.

Only seen one exception to this so far. And that guy's ability to avoid AOE damage is something I've not seen since. One exception in who knows how many runs is not free license to bring toons like that into an epic. At least, that's been my observation.

[Gorbadoc]

Posts like his are OUTSTANDING at showing people what can be achieved if people put effort and resources into the desired outcome.

Some of the posts in this thread are talking at cross-purposes. Two different reasons for playing the game are being discussed:

• The fun of gearing an awesome build.
• The fun of running quests.

If you play for the first reason, then you'll benefit from the lists that include Yugoloth potions, Minos Legens and Tier2 Greensteel-- they take dedication to obtain, but if you enjoy an occasional weekend of research and grinding, you can get them.

If you play for the second reason, then you'll benefit from the explanations of how to get decent hit points with only a +6 Con item and Greater False life. You'll also benefit from an explanation of what to watch for-- e.g. if you enjoy the quest Blown to Bits, you should make a point of running it often until you pull an Alchemist's Pendant.

TLDR; One recurring dispute in this thread won't be resolved by arguing.

[GentlemanAndAScholar]

It goes both ways.

Some people might not want someone with 290 hp in their E deeps group - and I only reckon it's good that one can see the hp and then choose to kick that person.

Remove the kick button and the accept / decline thingy and now everyone can be in everyone's group! That must obviously be the best way to do it, right?

The way hp works in this game, it's easy to determine a person's efficiency by just looking at it. Cause all you need is gear and a base of like 14 con and you are going to be over 400, no matter the class. And if someone then shows up with 290, it is obvious that that person either lacks items, or build (6 con arcane archer).

I'm not saying that I'm a person that really have to have perfect groups, hell, I go first come first served. But it is good if people who DO want perfect groups should have that possibility.

To me, it's not even about "perfect" groups at all. To me is about basic, elementary build priorities. If I'm running anything epic/end-game elite, I ask for 450HP (even healers and casters). I get a flurry of hate /tells which I happily ignore. If you don't like my rules, start your own group or join a different group. It's that simple. But blind pugging, I'm a very, very HP picky leader. I rather go shortmanned than spending resources on the 300HP capped Arti getting whacked every time they draw aggro. In OP's case, if he was on my friend's list he gets the spot regardless of HP.

[Thrudh]

What AO said about the ease with which most builds can get over 400 HP is spot on. 14 base con (or 16+ on arcanes) + appropriate gears easily gets you over.

No, it takes exceptional gear to get you over 400 for arcanes. It's not easy... You need exceptional CON items, you need a 45 hp GS item, and you need a +2 tome...

300 or so is perfectly reasonable for a new caster... and 400 is NOT easily accomplished. It's a good goal, but it takes some serious work.

[cpito]

Showing HP is pretty **** important in healing. I don't know how you guys did it before... but I come from games where I played A LOT of twitch healing for PvP and hp numbers help out a lot. Do you throw a small heal, or big one, fast one or slow one, do you cast more prot on target, what prots do you cast, etc.

I started a low level fvs and it helps a lot. I can decide to turn empower on or off, quicken on or off, what heal to use, etc. I can figure all these questions and take preventive actions before someone taking a big hit and dying because I miscalculated...

I made my snarky response earlier but I also want to agree with this. It does make healing decisions much easier. Last week I joined a shroud pug on my cleric. With 11 spots filled and only one healer, she had the most hp in the group with around 450. I didn't have an issue with it but I knew it would be a run that would be difficult to solo heal so I didn't speak up when the LFM went for another healer. Within minutes a fvs joined us and thier first comment after "hello" was "wow, I have the most hp in this group!" We ran the quest and completed with little issue. Yes, some of the squishier toons died but it didn't come as any sort of surprize. It was very nice going into the quest better prepared for what was to come and a better time was had by everyone for it.

[MysteryNotes]

No, it takes exceptional gear to get you over 400 for arcanes. It's not easy... You need exceptional CON items, you need a 45 hp GS item, and you need a +2 tome...

300 or so is perfectly reasonable for a new caster... and 400 is NOT easily accomplished. It's a good goal, but it takes some serious work.

400 hard? Not really.

First life 32 point build Level 20 Human Wizard.(Assuming 16 starting CON)
If going human, would naturally assume Pale Master for ease of self healing.
CON:
16 Base
6 Item
2 Tome
1 Human Enhancement
1 Exceptional (Sustaining symbiote - Not hard to get)
4 CON Lich Form
_
30 CON. = 10 MOD = +200 hp

80 Base
20 Heroic
22 Toughness
30 Toughness Enhancements(3rd unlocked when taking human CON)
20 Minos
30 GFL
20 Alchemist's Pendant
200 CON Mod(Lich form included)
20 Pale Master 3 enhancements
_
442

Throw in rage spell, you get 462. Ship +2 CON, 482.

Not hard to break 400 at all.

Could easily have gotten Pirate Hat for +10 more hp with Superior False Life for 492.

Should at least get a shroud item before heading into epics. But alchemist's pendant is easy enough to get.

*Edit*
As you can see, the listed items for bonus HP aren't hard to get. So 'exceptional' gear is hardly required to break 400.

[Sweyn]

...

Your drow sorc started with an 18 con then? Hate to break it to you, but that is in no way typical of a new 28 or 32 point character.

And you have Yugo pots, a 45 hp gs item, 3 points of exceptional Con, a Litany...

None of that is "easy" or typical for a new character. It takes time to acquire those things, they're not just handed to you when you hit lvl 20 or something.

I swear, posts like this just waste everyone's time. Using the gear your twinked out 3rd life character has a **** poor way of setting expectations for average characters.

Especially with the new bravery streaks and bonus XP for hard/elite. First life characters tend to race to lvl 20 without even trying hard, faster than they can accumulate some of the harder to get gear.

Please read the thread and at least some of the posts so you get an idea of what's going on before you start flaming the first post you see.

[Thrudh]

400 hard? Not really.

First life 32 point build Level 20 Human Wizard.(Assuming 16 starting CON)
If going human, would naturally assume Pale Master for ease of self healing.
CON:
16 Base
6 Item
2 Tome
1 Human Enhancement
1 Exceptional (Sustaining symbiote - Not hard to get)
4 CON Lich Form
_
30 CON. = 10 MOD = +200 hp

80 Base
20 Heroic
22 Toughness
30 Toughness Enhancements(3rd unlocked when taking human CON)
20 Minos
30 GFL
20 Alchemist's Pendant
200 CON Mod(Lich form included)
20 Pale Master 3 enhancements
_
442

Throw in rage spell, you get 462. Ship +2 CON, 482.

Not hard to break 400 at all.

Could easily have gotten Pirate Hat for +10 more hp with Superior False Life for 492.

Should at least get a shroud item before heading into epics. But alchemist's pendant is easy enough to get.

*Edit*
As you can see, the listed items for bonus HP aren't hard to get. So 'exceptional' gear is hardly required to break 400.

If you're a human palemaster, sure... Minus 90 hps if you're any other type of arcane... Whoops... back below 400...

[MysteryNotes]

If you're a human palemaster, sure... Minus 90 hps if you're any other type of arcane... Whoops... back below 400...

Actually, pale master only yields +60 hp. Not sure where you're getting the extra 30 from.

So it would still be at 402. With shipbuffs, 422.

[morticianjohn]

I find it kind of funny that TC is a divine that only focuses on healing, yet somehow was a sought after cleric. But hey, some people like that I guess.

Either way, at level 20 if you have under 400 HP, no matter of race or class, you're just not building right. Sure you can survive if you're good enough, but why build that way? It's extremely simple to get half decent hitpoints in this game with toughness feat and basic gear (+6 con item, +2 tome, GFL, Minos).

Especially when you build a toon so one dimensionally as a heal bot, plenty of room for con.

Hell, my cleric has NO epic gear, maxed healing ability, 39 DCs in Enchant and Necro, SOME melee ability and 500 HP. If you're not worrying about DCs, melee, or generally being useful outside of healing, how can you NOT have plenty of room for con and a toughness feat? Actually, you could probably take like 3 toughness feats and all the feats useful to healing.

Anyone willing to heal is highly sought after by the barb who wishes to upgrade his hireling. Even a 300 HP cleric with no offensive casting ability or evasion is an upgrade over wyoh and heystack.

[Dysmetria]

I really don't understand the issue here. If you do not like groups placing minimum hit point requirements on their fellow members or cannot live up to those requirements, simply join ones that do not do so or make your own instead.

[Vanquishedfo]

imo the best middle ground would be to change it to a % meter that way say youra cleric with a rule keep everyone up to 50% after that its on them to top off etc its easy to see when they need it. A single 100%-0% would take up less then the 1000/1000 we get on some extreme HP builds.

However I say take the nerfbat out and just kill HP. when you even begin to get a hint of players doing the need xxx hp for thos content you have bad content that needs tweaking. IF part of the issue is HP find a way to hurt big hp players worse then low ones with attacks that are based on max hp totals.

If part of the issue is that players can CHOOSE to have low hp builds but content cant be balanced for them and extreme HP builds then its the extreme that has to be nerfed down to non existance. for example a Hard HP cap of 400. no one can ever go over that then for some classes like barb con could be more of a dump stat and that would be great since then they could be more well rounde characters like all should have to be to keep real balance.