Wings wings wings: A Discussion

[rest]

I bet with con-op, torc, great DR and a mess of guards you could solo VOD on a ferret.

Ferret as a class or as a race?

[LordPiglet]

Did you even read this thread?

Your opinion is WRONG, the majority of the posters are asking for chains to prevent winging so they can have their fun and movement speed left alone 99% of the time.

I use wings to get from A to B faster, if you give me or most others the option of a 300% increase in cooldown or the loss of wings in what 3-5 raids? It should seem logical.

Rather than ramming a change down our throats, why not try implementing suggestions, esp while lammania is up

which is faster to do

Change the cooldown and mana usage

or prevent wings from being used while chained

One of these is probably 3 keystrokes per class, so therefore it's what we'll have.

[wiglin]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

I disagree with this assessment. My FvS is my favorite character to play, mainly due to enjoying wings. Any nurf to wings as a whole will lessen that enjoyment. I could see changing the cooldown to 6 seconds, but changing the sp cost and cooldown to 9 sec turns this into a not so great ability. I would much rather see more chains like abilities implemented that would ground characters and keep them from moving, then to have an across the board nurf to the best part of playing a fvs.

[Lifespawn]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

it seems to me we would rather have chain=no wings rather than the huge cooldown your advocating 9 sec is a long time.

I like to run around town jumping all over the place does it do much of anything? no but i like doing it 9 seconds would ruin that fun.

Please just try chainging that orange and red alert /chains or some form of rooting = no wings problem solved.

[CountHenri]

We're currently looking at raising the cooldown of Leap of Faith and Wind Dance to 9 seconds, and increasing the spell point cost to 10. We're leaving Abundant Step unchanged, since the ki cost is already a limiting factor in a major way that it isn't for sorcerers or favored souls.

Torc's proposed changes won't destroy Leap of Faith. An increased cooldown still leaves is an exceptionally useful ability, that can still be used to escape danger or maneuver in combat.

Sounds good to me actually...

Wings as they stand are an EASY BUTTON (tm)...

An extended cool down will actually make when to use the ability an important tactical decision rather than a button-mashfest...

The weakest complaint I got to say is time to get from A to B in game ~ between House P clicky and Guildships thats a non-argument. Even the longest wilderness quest run to Chains of Flame takes maybe 10 minutes and how often do you do that?

I also think DoTs should be looked at ~ have certain DoTs impede or cancel each other out due to elemental opposition or dominance. Having the same DoT cast by multiple casters on the same target should reset the DoT to base level. That would create the need for more tactical planning ~ "OK Caster A uses DoT X and Caster B uses DoT Y, we'll lose 50% damage on DoT X but both can be successfully Stacked. Oh and only Divine C is to use DP so we get the stacking"...

Finally isn't it really about time to look at how OP the eSoS is *HEAD EXPLODES FROM FOCUSSED NERD RAGE*...

[azrael4h]

it seems to me we would rather have chain=no wings rather than the huge cooldown your advocating 9 sec is a long time.

I like to run around town jumping all over the place does it do much of anything? no but i like doing it 9 seconds would ruin that fun.

Please just try chainging that orange and red alert /chains or some form of rooting = no wings problem solved.

Well, it's essentially chain=no wings during one or two raids, vs no wings at all.

Since the devs do not play DDO at all, nor have they played a FvS, I'll expound on something.

I will spend a good half hour just winging around the houses and marketplace. With a smile on my face. I get a smile on my face if I see another FvS wing past, whether I'm on mine or not.

I would rather have the Divine Punishment REMOVED ENTIRELY than lose my wings. Which while it won't stop my playing, will stop me from paying. I'll just become a burden on Turbine resources at that point, until a better MMO comes along that is as fun as DDO used to be.

[Rumbaar]

I'm speechless and at a loss.

I wont even bother making much of a point or comment, other than I'm disappointed at Turbine's thoughts on this change or possible changes to Leap of Faith.

[omen33]

Instead of increasing the time/sp cost why not give Fvs 10 (Maybe more) wing uses with say 1 use rechaging every 60 - 90 seconeds (Like smite evil). This would still make it usefull in normal quest but limit you from spamming it in raids.

[Beethoven]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

The most effective way to use Blade Barriers is to keep enemies close to it. Leap of Faith crosses a good distance and while it propels you out of the danger zone it is like the Frenzied Berserker running around a mob in between each swing. You'll loose a lot of dps doing so.

The most effective way to use Dots would actually be DR, a decent shield and blocking in combination with Torcs and Concordant Opposition items. Take minimum damage, regain SP and watch the mobs HP go down. Leap of Faith never comes into play here.

So, for the usual play Leap of Faith isn't really necessary as escape tactic. Arcanes have no problem kiting mobs without Leap of Faith. Ranged builds can kite mobs without a hitch and without access to Leap of Faith. LoF is handy if you get into trouble, but experienced players generally don't get into trouble every two seconds (or every nine seconds for that matter). So, prolonging the cooldown is really no going to do a lot in regards to kiting.

Now, the one big exception here are stunts like solo-ing VoD. Been there, done that and LoF makes it significantly easier as it acts as equalizer against the Chain power.

You extend the cooldown of LoF and there will be players for whom FvS no longer feel the same as being able to, say, jump down at the twelf and all the way to the entrance of the airship tower without ever touching ground or racing the monk in an outdoor area is part of the "feel" of the class to them. You make the cooldown 9 seconds and you also remove the FvS capabilities to do some of the "fun" things (defined as stunts with little to no game effects outside distance traveled).

Way I see it:
* the problem is the FvS ability to reach places most other toons can't and move at break neck speeds that can even put monks and barbarians to shame, extending the cooldown would fix it.
* the problem is the use of Wings to escape/kite certain mobs where other classes can't, chains = no wings is probably the better solution as it leaves the feel of the class in every other regard untouched.

[HarveyMilk]

This is actually quite easy for us to do, and we considered putting restrictions like that on various high-strength slow or root effects, but we believe that it would actually feel much worse than a cooldown change.

Leap of Faith is at least partially intended to be usable as an escape ability - just not one that's able to be used continuously. (The original ability was designed with the monk in mind, and was heavily use-restricted by the ki cost, though the monk uses it pretty often to close distance.)

Actually, no. Keep the cooldown as is and just adjust the root effects on a case by case basis. Some effects should be escapable, some shouldn't. Some should allow you to still use wings, but cut the distance in half, 3/4's, etc... Some should completely immobolize you, but allow you to use wings to move a little bit. This gives characters with wings/dance a useful niche.

It comes down to creative content development, not adding on to a cooldown that lowers fun =/

[Eladrin]

Instead of increasing the time/sp cost why not give Fvs 10 (Maybe more) wing uses with say 1 use rechaging every 60 - 90 seconeds (Like smite evil). This would still make it usefull in normal quest but limit you from spamming it in raids.

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

[protokon]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

How about 1 use per caster level. 20 fvs gets 20 uses, so cannot be abused in raids as mentioned.

[Seikojin]

As much as I dislike seeing fvs dominate all over the place, I have to agree with the communities response to make mobs have more options to take us down, rather than nerfing us.

I know code wise, it is easier to just adjust the coodlown than add an ability to the bosses, but it would play out better for the game if that was the case.

Now if it was said: We are adjusting the cooldown while we add other methods to take those flying fvs' out of the air, I am sure the reaction would be less severe.

[omen33]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Ha! Awsome.

How about 1 use per caster level. 20 fvs gets 20 uses, so cannot be abused in raids as mentioned.

I was thinking 1 per 2 levels of Fvs but fitting it with the caster level makes more sense.

EDIT:

We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I like that alot, I dont use more than 5 uses per normal encounter kiting monsters around and it should be more than enough to get away from monsters chasing me if I need to. Plus the 15 secs should mean I'm back at the full 5 chages by the next fight.

[Munkenmo]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

If that's the chosen idea, would it be possible to hard code max charges whilst in town, and maybe explorer zones (thinks atdq / ecof)

[Venny]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

Then Nerf Clerics Auras that are 12 - 14 at lvl 11 as well Bard songs I PAY to play a Favoured soul...

Are we going to get items that assist in the Recharge like Bards? Are we going to be able to have the same amount of Charges open to us as say a Bard does with songs or a Cleric with turns... with all of the things you have to apply in Fvs.

The Class is already STAT Greedy, they are Action Point greedy, They have One PrE class and you need a change in Feat for some times. AND It is Called ANGEL Of VENGENCE not clunker of vengence.

When you are opening the Xp events again I challenge one of you Devs to make a Fvs. No epic Gear nothing but what is in the AH... and lets see what you think about nerfing this. Not everyone plays this game day in and day out to get epic gear.

[Attropos]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

This is vastly superior to what you were originally proposing. The only alteration I could think of would be decreasing the recharge to about 10 seconds. It would still prevent kiting of bosses for extended periods of time, but would cause less trouble for travel (wings are basically favored souls' sprint boosts for cross country travel)

[Khurse]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

..... so your concern is nothing at all to do with what Torc originally said?

This is more than enough charges (with recharge) to DOT kite.

However while my disappointment that (again) no devs seem to see an issue with the DOTs knows no bounds (or some Hyperbole like that) I guess this is far better solution to the wing problem that doesn't exist than the original was.

Yay?

[Gratch]

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

Much better change than 9s. Though giving bosses "instructional" ranged abilities would have been fine too.

But no submitting the wings nerf unless it comes with more FVS PRE's (or Druids).

Think I'll use that as my new .sig.

[Diyon]

I like that idea quite a bit. So does Torc.

You win the thread!

Edit:
We're currently thinking 3 second cooldown, 5 uses, recharging one use every 15 seconds. Wind Dance would have the same rules attached to it. This lets you have a nice burst of speed when you need it, and the recharge rate is fast enough that it's not totally burdensome.

I will consider this a buff if this means Wind Dances cool down will be 3 seconds. Pleeeeeeeeaaaase??? =D